Surviving an armed confrontation

[lemaymiami]

I was involved for a few years in my Department's training program down here in south Florida and years ago we established an Officer Survival training regimen for in-service officers, running every officer, uniform and plain clothes, through it by the time we were done. All of this was in the early nineties (I retired out in 1995 myself). Along with that training we also made some changes in our daily tactics to reduce the chances of getting into an armed confrontation in the first place as well as making other changes in procedures to minimize the chances of a single officer coming up against someone or a group in a situation where the odds were all on the side of the bad guys. At the time I believe that other agencies in my area were instituting similar policies and training efforts.

After retiring, for quite a few years, I stayed away from anything having to do with police work - or anything involving weapons at all. Starting about ten years ago now I gradually started paying attention to such things again (and that's one of the reasons I looked for and found this site...). The reason I'm writing this is having seen or heard of one too many incidents involving officers or citizens where it's pretty obvious that bad tactics, or poor training greatly contributed to a very bad outcome for the officer(s) or citizen... What I'm wondering is were those hard lessons we learned years ago forgotten or over time was the available training not kept up? I have no idea of the answers to those questions - so I'm posing them here...

Can anyone in police training or self defense training tell me exactly what level of armed survival training is still available or actually being taught to those going into harm's way on our streets? Please direct as many of your responses as possible towards training for armed citizens since that's our focus here. Anyone in police work wanting to discuss tactics can do it privately instead of on this forum. If nothing else, an open discussion of the kind of tactics that greatly improve an individual's chances of surviving an armed encounter might be worth having... and of course any moderator should toss this if I'm out of line...

 

[luzyfuerza]

@lemaymiami , I know that it's been a lot of years, but can you outline the principles underlying your department's Officer Survival training, as they might apply to a citizen defender?

 

[lemaymiami]

Not sure where to begin.. In short I'm reading and or seeing instances where officers across the country on duty needlessly placed themselves in jeopardy - doing things we specifically taught our officers not to do... Not much you can do if handling a domestic dispute in a dwelling and one of the occupants acts with deadly intent except to return fire, retreat, and try to survive. Many of the encounters on the street that I've seen tell me that some of the things I thought were very basic - don't seem to be followed any more. Something as simple as never walking up to an occupied vehicle until your backup is with you, instead in an ordinary voice asking the driver or occupant to exit the vehicle and come to where you are... - and even then, if there's the slightest doubt going to an all out felony stop behind cover with weapons drawn... Not running into a situation where it's clear that someone is firing from an ambush point and has an advantage over anyone coming into the ambush zone.... Allowing anyone on foot to approach a vehicle you're sitting in without exiting your vehicle and moving into a position where your car provides some cover in case the encounter is not only unfriendly but also possibly deadly... Small things that might make all the difference like keeping your distance from someone who's angry and might assault if you're close enough (something every armed citizen should factor into their behavior in any possible confrontation). We specifically showed our officers how easy it is to ambush anyone foolish enough to pull their car right behind an occupied vehicle no matter how "routine" it might be. Instead to stop a bit short, on an angle and immediately exit your own vehicle while remaining behind your open door so that you have not only the ability to maneuver but also some partial cover from any incoming rounds if it is an ambush situation.. None of this was done to encourage officers to act aggressively - most of these kinds of maneuvers can be done without alarming anyone watching them. The idea was to have any of our people learn to place themselves in the most advantageous position possible when dealing with anyone that was either a problem or simply an unknown quantity...

Underlying the training were some changes in attitude needed on everyone's part. The first one was that it was okay if an offender flees from you - and that chases were only to be undertaken with clear reason - and never on foot.. Instead the officer was encouraged to use the radio to report a fleeing individual if they were on foot and simply establish a perimeter (with all that involves....) then hold the perimeter until a K-9 officer could respond and lead the search for the offender... We also did the same with building searches - all were held on the perimeter until the dog could arrive and do the search with appropriate back-up. We also quit allowing officers to serve arrest warrants (plain clothed or uniform) if there was the slightest information that the target might be armed or prepared to resist. Instead those situations were handled by our SRT (and the number of injuries to officers and offenders went way down... ). That unit was trained to carefully plan out any action in advance - including doing a survey of the property involved as well as a records search for the property in advance to try to determine if it was a source of trouble in previous incidents..

As I write this I realize that much of this is policing specific but the basic principles of not placing yourself at risk in any encounter do apply to every armed citizen as well. The armed encounter that never occurs because of a bit of caution is far preferable than any kind of gunplay since the good guys don't always win... My request to hear about what training is happening today for both police and citizens in this regard is sincere. The things I'm seeing in videos and news accounts these days tell me that much of what we learned and practiced years ago - are no longer being done...

 

[luzyfuerza]

Great lessons! What you wrote might, on the surface, appear to apply mostly to policing, but I think that there's a lot here that armed and unarmed citizens can learn from.

Examples:

Something as simple as never walking up to an occupied vehicle until your backup is with you, instead in an ordinary voice asking the driver or occupant to exit the vehicle and come to where you are...

Citizen application: Learn to not force issues. To not get into anyone's face. To not raise your voice. Or to show anger. Don't use rude hand gestures. Don't try to physically or emotionally dominate a situation. Don't escalate. Try to calm others down if you can. Drive courteously.

Not running into a situation where it's clear that someone is firing from an ambush

Citizen application: No matter how competent you think you are, never allow yourself to run, walk, or crawl into a situation where an adversary has any advantage. Never let yourself be drawn in. Much better to move to or maintain a position where you have the advantage if you can.

Allowing anyone on foot to approach a vehicle you're sitting in

Citizen application: A stopped car is a transitional space. Minimize the time that you spend in transitional spaces. Drive to where you're going, and as soon as you're there, get out, lock the car, and move away. The same when you return. Don't slowly load your car with purchases. Get the job done, get in the vehicle, lock the doors, and get underway. Sitting in your stopped vehicle, in a public space, with the windows rolled down, surfing on your phone is a bad idea on so many levels!

We specifically showed our officers how easy it is to ambush anyone foolish enough to pull their car right behind an occupied vehicle no matter how "routine" it might be. Instead to stop a bit short

Citizen application: Throughout your day (including while you're driving), get used to giving yourself extra room to escape and evade if the need should ever arise. Most citizens learned "to drive defensively"; basically to try to anticipate other drivers' mistakes and to prepare to act to avoid an accident. Citizens can use this same principle to learn to look for and anticipate where attacks might come from, and to prepare to take steps that will help protect them from being hurt.

keeping your distance from someone who's angry

Citizen application: Anger is a tool some have learned to use to dominate situations and others. Distance yourself and those you care about from people who use anger to try to dominate. If you can, just step away completely.


One thing that really jumped out at me was how you trained officers to always look for or create situations that gave them the advantage. I really like that principle. Citizens can also learn to create situations where WE have the advantage.

 

[lemaymiami]

I left police work long before Columbine happened (and as usual since I left police work I only hear about one tragedy or other as I'm towing my skiff somewhere - or just coming off the water...).

Columbine and our whole "active shooter" problem require completely different responses than the cautious super defensive tactics we taught our officers - all those years ago... In fact for policing to be effective in that kind of situation being aggressive and risking it all to intervene is what should be taught - but that's an entirely different story... For the armed citizen that's when being defensive and withdrawing if at all possible is probably their best tactic - the opposite of that first impulse to intervene if at all possible...

 

[Craig_AR]

@lemaymiami
Please check out John Murphy at FPF Training for his Concealed Carry: Street Encounter Skills and Tactics class. He covers precisely the topics you address, to include avoiding conflict on the street, use of non-lethal OC (pepper) spray, and shoot-or-not-shoot decisions in 3D, all with classroom and exercises or drills. Last year the class was part YouTube, part classroom, and part range exercises. This year he has moved almost all of the classroom to a new set of YouTube videos, thus greatly expanding the live range exercises.
His Street Encounter Skills and Tactics 2 minute video is an introduction / advertisement for the class.
If you want to dive into the full video portion of the newly upgraded class, start with
Street Encounter Skills and Tactics: Context and Content
I cannot recommend John's training enough.

BONUS. John is in Florida next week:
Street Encounter Skills and Tactics (5-6 Feb, Holt, FL)

Sat, Feb 5, 2022 9:00 AM Sun, Feb 6, 2022 5:00 PM
Element Training Center (map)
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/concea...ills-and-tactics-holt-fl-tickets-156571953929

 

[rust collector]

I too have been dismayed at the number of officers we are losing when we should assume folks are armed, possibly armored, and encouraged by all the anti-LE rhetoric. Civilians, few of whom have military training in this day and age, give little thought to these issues until too late. I will check some of the noted resources and try to improve my awareness.

 

[45CalPal]

@lemaymiami
I am by no means an officer, nor have I ever served in any military. I do however have a select group of friends that are local LEO's, I have heard story after story, and will admit that during the telling of said stories, I have cringed at the reactions and responses taken from speciffic actions of these officers.

Again, I am no LEO, but I have had some survival, and tatical training here about a decade ago.
But the general rule often thrown around is the fact that "times a change"...

My LEO buddys ages rannge from rookie to almost ready to retire, and they all have disagreements on the actions taken in the stories told. Even witnessed a minor falling out over it, but eveuntually tehy reconciled...

It would appear the efforts you and your departmen took back then were at some point altered and or slowly forgotten. A friend, has just 3 years on the force, and he said there was not much training for urban citizen reactionary methods. He explains it was mostly comprised of weapon handling, shooting, and law knowledge.

Again this is all just 3rd hand knowledge So I can not personally attest to it. What I gather from it all is that you cant train for every scenario that can be encountered, however you can attempt to train for them. But there seems to be a lacking effort to "fully" train the LEO"s in the times of today potential scenarios.

"Back The Blue"

 

[MedWheeler]

I used a ton of police-learned techniques when I moonlighted (or is it "moonlit"?) delivering pizzas. These covered where I positioned my vehicle (not in the driveway if it could be avoided, but in the street slightly past the driveway), how I held my four-cell (offhand, overhand grip), where I stood when I knocked on the door (back away from, and to one side of it), and even how I spoke with others (with confidence and assertion.) I got taken for a cop quite a few times, even by at least one other cop on the other side of one of those doors. I still do every now and then.

For general "going about town", the basic concepts of situational awareness and avoiding conflict have been covered at length here, and will be again in this thread, I expect. I never bothered to seek out that type of training on my own but, for the general public, it certainly seems like a good idea, whether planning on being armed or not.

 

[shootstraight57]

One problem that we have here in Pa. is that for the Police officer, the training is voluntary. Excluding the usual in service yearly education which mainly stresses the problems of the last year.
The Pa. State Police comes out with a yearly calendar which has different training of different categories. The Police Officer can sign up for as many classes as he wants throughout the year.
I would take that calendar and sign up for the classes that helped me to be a better officer as well as a safer one. One year they just started a Police Officer Survival School and Education class and Patrol stop tactics. Both classes were just introduced and had a lot of great training involved using simulated ammo. A class which only ran once was for D.O.T. inspections of tractor trailers which ran for 2 weeks. This class covered Log books and inspections.
Most officers here that the Academy was enough for them and never bothered with additional training. I was always looking for ward to it.

 

[herrwalther]

Back in my military and uni days, I did lots of cross training with LE and SWAT units('06-12). The cross training involved learning how different agencies do things and to teach them military tricks that apply to their tactics. Example, don't teach complex breach maneuvers involving small teams to regular patrol, save that for SWAT. On the same token, learn something from them. One example I picked up was doing rifle to pistol transitions faster from Miami-Dade SWAT. In those years one thing I noticed is that patrol officers got better equipment, so their tactics when responding to situations had to get better. In the revolver days of policing, I doubt many officers wore body armor outside of SWAT or Tac units. Now, I know of agencies that have soft armor uniform shirts to stop the most common projectiles. Armor improves the survivability of the officer so it is important they can use that advantage to respond to more calls instead of the "call for backup and wait" approach.

 

[lemaymiami]

All those years ago when I was a rookie (1974...) body armor was just coming on the market. Since my agency didn't equip us with armor - I bought my own (a very un-comfortable piece of gear down here in the heat of south Florida, that would stop most handgun ammo of that time) and wore it every day on every shift - even while directing traffic on day shift.... Those early vests barely covered your vitals, front and back, and had their share of shortcomings. Many years later when I was nearing retirement my small outfit (100 man department in Dade county) had long been issuing top quality level three soft body armor - but not mandating it be worn since for some those vests are just too uncomfortable. To this day, all these years later I still have the last vest I was issued - hanging in my closet, gathering dust... I tried to turn it in when I retired but was told to keep it since it would just be thrown out....

I must say though - body armor is a great advantage if you can make yourself use it - always, so that it becomes a matter of habit... In my experience though over a 22 year span - at least half or more of the officers that were killed down here in my era - were in fact wearing armor when they died... Body armor just doesn't cover more than a good portion of your vital areas.... and armed offenders have the devil's own luck (rarely was it skilled marksmanship) if a shootout.. That one bullet they fired hit the one spot... that wasn't armored... Add a long gun to an incident and your body armor won't stop something incoming... (that goes for most parts of a car as well...). Something not often mentioned about body armor that's a great plus for those that wear it is that in a very bad car crash - body armor saved many a young cop's life... when otherwise they clearly would not have survived the crash...

And so it goes...

 

[JTHunter]

Lemaymiami - be glad you have that armor as it is illegal to own/possess in IL-ANNOY.

 

[defjon]

I don't think body armor is illegal in Illinois. Maybe a local jurisdiction?

 

[defjon]

From what I can tell (not to derail the thread) overall state law in IL :

In Illinois, any adult can purchase and use a bulletproof vest, unless that adult has been convicted of a felony. Bulletproof vests and all other body armor can be purchased online or face-to-face

 

[lemaymiami]

Don't have a clue about Illinois statutes... but I can tell you I'm hoping to never ever wear body armor again.... Glad I'm long out of that world period...

 

[MedWheeler]

leymaymiami writes:

Something not often mentioned about body armor that's a great plus for those that wear it is that in a very bad car crash - body armor saved many a young cop's life... when otherwise they clearly would not have survived the crash...

Yep, and my night sergeant may well have been one of them. Had a SIDS call in the middle of the night.. sergeant, who was an EMT, and police medic both responded. Our protocols at the time were that the third-service EMS transport outfit wasn't called until the police medic unit (usually two officers in an ALS-equipped SUV, but one had called out that night) arrived and determined necessity.

Rather than wait for an ambulance, the medic grabbed the lifeless child and jumped in the right front of his rig an directed the sergeant to drive it to the hospital, about a mile away. Sarge lost control of the heavy Suburban on a wet patch and ran straight into a tree. No seat belt in use, and way before air bags. His vest diffused quite a bit of that steering-wheel impact, leaving him with only some cracked ribs. The medic fared better, having had his belt on. The vehicle was destroyed.

I've contemplated getting a vest to keep in my own unit these days. My outfit doesn't get tangled up in "hot scenes", as the county has tactical medics attached to their SWAT units for that crap, but it's getting to where Joe Fireman or Mike-the-Medic can easily be a target on even a "routine" call in some places.

 

[lemaymiami]

For what it's worth... once I learned the ropes as a rookie (all those years ago...) and began to set some standards for my own behavior out on the street... Any time I was involved in a hot call where our guys were running to assist an officer or other serious emergency... I always chanted to myself "look out for the cops" meaning look out for anyone - police, fire, ambulance, wreckers that were running hot and heavy to get somewhere... I learned to expect that the moment everyone tossed caution to the winds and went all out... that at least one of the "good guys" would end up in a crash somewhere along the way - and I was seldom disappointed... unfortunately...

Looking back on it driving under serious emergency conditions was probably the greatest hazard I ever faced over the years (including a short tour in a very bad place back in 1971 with the 101st... ).

 

[theotherwaldo]

I learned long ago that driving the roads is far more dangerous than walking the streets... .

 

[Blue Jays]

"…I learned long ago that driving the roads is far more dangerous than walking the streets..."

Is your thought that being in a vehicle one covers more ground and has greater exposure?
Or if one is on foot he or she can somewhat "melt" into the background environment?

 

[theotherwaldo]

I've been hit more often by inattentive jerks while driving than I have been attacked by malicious jerks while walking down the street.

 

[MedWheeler]

Blue Jays writes:

Is your thought that being in a vehicle one covers more ground and has greater exposure?
Or if one is on foot he or she can somewhat "melt" into the background environment?

He might mean that it's simply more dangerous to be driving than to be walking. Far more Americans are killed or injured each year in traffic collisions than are in criminal attacks.