Suspect shoots cop in mistaken self-defense

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I'm surprised no one has picked up yet on the nugget about the cop's pistol supposedly "misfiring." This sounds like an indication he was in the process of firing his weapon at an innocent man.

It sounds like the cop accidentally dropped his mag, instead of a true misfire, though.

What do they carry in Atlanta? M&Ps?
 
I'm surprised no one has picked up yet on the nugget about the cop's pistol supposedly "misfiring." This sounds like an indication he was in the process of firing his weapon at an innocent man.

It sounds like the cop accidentally dropped his mag, instead of atrue misfire, though.

What do they carry in Atlanta? M&Ps?

The gun didn't misfire. As stated in the article, who fired the first shot is still in contention, but what doesn't seem to be is that the suspect was already on the ground and being cuffed before he whipped around and a struggle ensued. If a suspect who is resisting arrest goes for a gun then the cop needn't wait for the actual shot, so even if he did fire first in this case I don't see any issue. In any event, after the first shot the magazine dropped free.

As to the make of gun - I can't find in any of the news articles which particularly LEA Keith Roach is associated with.

So far, from browsing the net, depending on which PD he's from it would be one of the following:

Atlanta PD- M&P 40
Cobb PD- Glock 22 & 27
Dekalb PD- M&P 40
Marietta PD- Glock 22
Gwinnett PD- Glock 17
Smyrna PD- Glock 22

It could have either been an M&P with a mag safety or if one the the Glocks he could have dropped the mag on the draw and the single shot left the gun empty.
 
their defense will stomp yours though

Huh????

Do you understand what case law is? It means that a Judge actually ruled this part is the "law of the land"

It was not intended to require an arrestee to submit to egregiously unlawful conduct-such as an unprovoked assault-by the police in the course of an arrest, whether the arrest was legal or illegal.

So that means a Judge decided a cop overstepped his bounds ,and a citizen could not be charged with resisting.

That is why it is a case cite regarding a claim of self defense in my state.
 
say you were just involved in a gun fight......and then you see someone else running at you with a gun.......are you really going to take the time to notice what clothes they have on?

You better, or you don't deserve to be carrying a gun.
 
Both parties were lucky that no-one died. Thats a win-win. This was an awful event. We can sit here and analize the event, but its much different to live it with adrenaline coursing through your veins.

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I would have had my suspicions too if I were Mr. Thomas.

He was on his way to a public place to summon the police when someone dressed as an officer shows up immediately. In my experience, police never arrive THAT fast.

This person stepped out of an unoffical vehicle and already had a gun in hand. If I had just been shot at, this would seem very sketchy.

This person had the uniform but not the duty belt, which might not be sold at a costume store.

This person had visible tattoos, which used to be a no-no for police. I thought it was STILL a no-no until I read this.

He had just been attacked. He escaped, but was a "witness" to a crime. It wouldnt be too unreasonable to think the criminals had a "safety net" to catch a witness to their crimes.

If Thomas would have shouted, "I DONT BELIEVE YOU ARE A COP! I WILL NOT SURRENDER UNTIL A PATROL CAR GETS HERE!" The event may have ended differently.

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Roach might have assumed his uniform was enough of an identifier and may not have verbally identified himself. Someone mentioned he may have used profanity, which would indicate to me someone pretending to be an officer.

I think Roach responded as he should have, but the verbal identifier may have been forgotten.

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Thomas will have to be made an example of. Its not fair, I do believe he was in fear of his life. I do not think he would have fired on the officer if Roach had stepped out of a patrol car.

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I was with a friend when an older pickup pulled in behind us and a single blue light flashed at us from the dashboard. We were sure it was someone posing as the police. We called 911 and reported it and continued to drive. We were told that sometimes they use undercover cars. We told the dispatcher we would be glad to pull over for a cruiser, would they please send one to pull over BOTH vehicles. We continued to drive until that happened.

We got a lecture about "running from the police". Ironicly from a guy dressed very casually (from the pickup).
"Didnt you see my light?!"
"Yeah, I have one too!" I opened my butane lighter and a red and blue light flashed, very similar to his. I resisted the urge to tell him I've accidently had someone pull over when I was lighting a cigarette.

I'm glad to say that the local police has reverted to driving black and white patrol cars. I'll pull over for a patrol car, but I dont think I'll EVER pull over for an unmarked '89 Ford pickup.
 
I picture myself in this Jury and two things that would be running in my mind (depending on how the full facts pan out) would be:

-In stressful situations, judgement errors are made. It does happen from time to time. Cops do shoot other cops and innocents. Is the charge in this case equitable with those other incidents?

-Do the facts support that a reasonable person in this situation, knowing it was a police officer, would open fire? What are reasons people shoot at police? To escape capture would be my guess. If this person was a law abiding victim before, as a jury I would have to find some reasonable explanation that would have led him to want to shoot at the police. Otherwise, I think there could be a case made for plenty of reasonable doubt that he was trying to shoot a police officer. (Mens Rea and all that stuff).
 
To me, this looks like one of those crazy situations that happen once in a blue moon in free societies, in which both sides can be mistaken, and both can be acting reasonably as the situation appears to them.

The officer was mistaken in thinking he was pursuing a perpetrator, rather than a victim. The robbery victim was mistaken in thinking the officer was a threat to his life, rather than a cop trying to make a lawful arrest.

I think they were both right in acting as they did. As for the cop, he just saw a man running across a street shooting a gun. He had no idea who or what the guy was shooting at, and without any further knowledge, it would appear very likely that the shooter was breaking the law, and was a threat to the lives of others. With this limited amount of knowledge, it would certainly be proper for a person who is paid to enforce the law to try to end the threat, and to investigate whether a crime occurred.

As for the robbery victim, after being accosted by a group of armed robbers who he thought were probably chasing him, he saw another vehicle pull up and a guy jump out with a gun, wearing what looked like a police uniform, but who looked a little fishy with tats and whatnot, and it appeared that this man was trying to kidnap him. He certainly could have been reasonably in fear of death or serious bodily injury under these facts, and therefore would be right in acting to end the threat.

Close cases make for bad law. I think this is one of those exceptional cases in which it makes sense to say that both men acted reasonably, though mistakenly, and that neither one should be punished. Unfortunately, in a free society in which everyone has the right to be armed and to protect his own rights, sometimes "stuff" happens. Cases like this are very rare, but they do happen.

However, I do think there is a good chance that this situation could have ended differently if the officer were better trained and prepared. Apparently he had the shooter splayed out on the ground, and had his foot on his back. In this kind of position, if he knew what he was doing, he should have been able to keep the shooter from getting a gun on him. Also, it definitely sounds like he screwed up when trying to fire his gun. It sounds to me like he accidentally ejected his mag, and then in panic, maybe tried to do some sort of tap rack bang thing (though it wouldn't make sense here) and ejected the round he had in the chamber.

As a final thought, I will add that it would be incredibly evil to fail to act when you are under the belief that you will die if you do not act, because you think that following society's rules is more important than preserving your own life.
 
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The officer was mistaken in thinking he was pursuing a perpetrator, rather than a victim.
I think it better here to say, the officer was investigating a violent and unlawful situation and was detaining an investigation suspect. He may or may not have believed this man was the perpetrator of the original crime or a victim of it, but he could see definite things that were against the law and needed to act. He appears to have acted -- in light of the minor bit of knowledge we do have -- appropriately. I don't believe he made a mistake in attempting to apprehend Mr. Thomas.

As for the cop, he just saw a man running across a street shooting a gun. He had no idea who or what the guy was shooting at, and without any further knowledge, it would appear very likely that the shooter was breaking the law
Actually, as I said before, the things he DID see with his own eyes would be arrestable offenses regardless. He DID see Mr. Thomas breaking the law -- if only in running down the street brandishing a firearm. He may or may not have seen Mr. Thomas fire shots, but he certainly had heard them and it was reasonable for him to arrest Mr. Thomas for that reasonably suspected act as well -- which is also against the law.

The actual assault or murder or whatever had taken place moments before were MORE significant, and could certainly have justified Mr. Thomas' actions -- later, when deciding to press charges or not, or at a trial -- but the things Officer Roach witnessed himself were grounds enough to arrest Mr. Thomas. Mr. Thomas had broken two laws, and Officer Roach witnessed those acts.

...it would certainly be proper for a person who is paid to enforce the law to try to end the threat, and to investigate whether a crime occurred.
Indeed. To investigate whether FURTHER crimes had occurred. He had personal eye-witness evidence of two already.

Those two likely would have been later proved justified under an affirmative defense of "self-defense." But it isn't the job of the responding officer to make a snap decision about whether that is the case or not. His job is to stop the crime, detain suspects, and begin the process of investigation into what happened and who was to blame.
 
im willing to bet( assuming the officer was wearing a 'standard' black uniform) that all the guy saw was a black figure pointing a gun at him........

and im sure under stress, he didnt hear any of his verbal commands......


another person who either didn't read or can't understand the op. even the guy on trial doesn't claim that
 
Cop sets little girl on fire and shoots her in the head = involuntary manslaughter. Citizen mistakenly shoots a cop in the leg = 25 years. Sounds fair to me.
was someone set on fire or is it something in the water?
i take it you are confused about involuntary manslaughter? at the very least?
 
You would think that someone would recognize a police officer instantly but then you would think that someone would recognize his own wife. I almost punched mine the other night. I was up late reading long after I thought my wife had gone to bed. I walked into the kitchen for something and as I rounded the corner I came face to face with the woman whom I have been married to for seven years. I was not expecting anyone to be there and yelled out loud and both hands came up into a defensive position fists clinched. Within half a second I recognized it was not a threat and relaxed. Then it was funny. We have all been startled by loved ones like this and I can see how a person in a stressful fight or flight moment could pull a trigger reflexively on a strange man holding a gun before recognizing the details of his clothing, especially in dim light.
 
You would think that someone would recognize a police officer instantly but then you would think that someone would recognize his own wife. I almost punched mine the other night. I was up late reading long after I thought my wife had gone to bed. I walked into the kitchen for something and as I rounded the corner I came face to face with the woman whom I have been married to for seven years. I was not expecting anyone to be there and yelled out loud and both hands came up into a defensive position fists clinched. Within half a second I recognized it was not a threat and relaxed. Then it was funny. We have all been startled by loved ones like this and I can see how a person in a stressful fight or flight moment could pull a trigger reflexively on a strange man holding a gun before recognizing the details of his clothing, especially in dim light.

This is a great point but the defendant did indicate that he initially thought officer Roach was a cop and even surrendered to him. So the problem wasn't that he didn't recognize an officer when he saw one, the problem is that he later doubted whether or not the officer was a real cop. At which point he decided not to surrender and proceeded to assault the officer.

In the context of your story it would be sort of like if after you almost punched your wife you stood there for a moment, thought about it, decided that maybe she wasn't your wife after all because something didn't look 100% right, and then punched her.
 
This is a great point but the defendant did indicate that he initially thought officer Roach was a cop and even surrendered to him. So the problem wasn't that he didn't recognize an officer when he saw one, the problem is that he later doubted whether or not the officer was a real cop. At which point he decided not to surrender and proceeded to assault the officer.

It really just about makes more sense that way. See someone who looks like an officer from a distance, allow him to get close, begin to surrender, and then get the extremely strong feeling that something is terribly wrong.

"He just called me a (something harsh, profane, maybe even ethnic?)!, ... and he's not wearing a real cop uniform!...And look at those tattoos! HE'S WITH THEM! I'M GOING TO DIE!"

A terrible trick of circumstance, but I can see it happening, and I really still don't see any very legitimate "armchair quarterback advice" to give them. There's a lot of "maybe" and "you could have..." to propose, but not a lot of concrete condemnation on either of them.
 
If we were discussing things officers might consider to help them - professional appearance, language, and demeanor - that might be productive. So would discussing things we could do that might help us be identified as victims, or at least not part of the officer's problem.


But we're all conjecturing about things with no established facts here.


Hasn't this about run its course?
 
If I have a reasonble belief that I am in danger,I am going to resist.If the aggressor is a cop,while he'd better be right.Otherwise,it sicks to be him.
OTOH,if the subject of this discussion knew1)that the guy he shot was NOT the tjreat,then its a bad shoot.I obviously am dubious of the trust given to "public trust positions"-but I would NOT advocate the wrongful use of force vs anyone-cop or not.2)All O cafe about is wheyher or not the shooter was rigjt-not whether it provides precedent for an " escape clause"by a criminal.....nl special rights or priviliges is a standard I truly believe in.
 
Our public servants should be capable of wisely handling complex situations. I know that rarely happens.

This reminds me of "zero tolerance" thinking. The overall situation deserves to be considered. The merchant was in a gun battle with people who had a prearranged plan. Bad guys do dress in uniform, no police car in sight. The officer had survivable injuries.

Having a productive citizen sacrifice twenty-five years of his life only for the sanctity of "Blue" is wrong. Admit crap happens and call a draw.

Just like most gun related situations, calling a draw will not encourage the law abiding to shoot cops. Bad guys who are willing to shoot a cop will not have their thinking affected by this case.
 
This whole situation is yet another example of why plainclothes officers and unmarked vehicles are a bad idea.

The way I see it, they should be required to have day glow uniforms and paintjobs on their vehicles.
Nor should they have any official authority while off duty.
 
He was in a uniform. Nobody seems to know exactly what form of uniform he was in, but he was in uniform, the type that any of us can buy.

It is interesting that Thomas didn't recognize the uniform, but claimed he saw the officer's tattoos and thought the officer was therefore a bad guy. Keith Roach is a dark skinned African American. If Thomas could see Roach's tats that well, then sure enough, he should have seen the uniform quite well.

The following link shows Roach and Thomas...
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/no-bond-for-man-538250.html
 
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