SW 586 accuracy with 38 special

[ANATION]

I noticed that my 6" 586 loves 357 Mag, especially hot hand loads, but does not seem to like 38 Special. The accuracy with 158 and 124 is superb, 2 inch from 25 yards and 4 inch at 40--thats great for me, but it can't hit the broadside of a barn with any 38 Special. I'm ok with this since I mostly feed it 357 but I do find it peculiar. Any thoughts as to why this could be? Thanks

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Longer unsupported jump to the forcing cone. Its a pretty common issue when shooting .38s from a Magnum cylinder. Some guns do it more than others.
I dont really notice any difference with my 686, but its very pronounced with my M28.

 

[StrawHat]

There were many competitors using the L frame when I shot PPC. The top scorers maintained their top scores when using the L frame so I do not find any support to the long bullet jump theory nor do I see where 38 S&W Special cartridges would cause any sort of inaccuracies.

Kevin

 

[Riomouse911]

Guns are like English cars; even if they were sequentially manufactured on the same day, and by the same people, each one has its own personality.

You may find a .38 load that puts a cylinder into 1.5” with your 586, or they may still shoot wide. The fun is trying to find that golden gun-bullet-powder charge combo.

Stay safe.

 

[MrBorland]

If the transition to and from the throat is smooth, and the throats are appropriately-sized, shorter .38s ought to shoot as well as .357. If not, I suspect an issue with the throats.

Are your .38s plated/jacketed? Do you see the same issue with cast .38s? Does your 586 shoot cast .38s better? If so, I'm wondering if the throats are a teensy smidge on the big side.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

There were many competitors using the L frame when I shot PPC. The top scorers maintained their top scores when using the L frame so I do not find any support to the long bullet jump theory nor do I see where 38 S&W Special cartridges would cause any sort of inaccuracies.

Kevin

I don't doubt your experience, but if that were entirely the case I do wonder why the M14 remained in production when they could have just bored them all for Magnums and only produced the M19 going forwards.
Yes, I suppose politics may have played a role- many LE departments would not allow officers to carry .357s- but the M14 is still in production long after revolvers have lost all law enforcement relevance.

I think on some level S&W knew there was a practical accuracy reason for keeping the M14 going, even if it wasn't actually the "jump" issue.

 

[MrBorland]

I do wonder why the M14 remained in production when they could have just bored them all for Magnums and only produced the M19 going forwards.

Just guessing, but used as service revolvers, some departments felt the .357 had too much recoil & muzzle blast and was harder to shoot accurately and quickly, came with more danger of overpenetration. It likely hung on after PDs went to semiautos because many still felt the same way. And if .357mag were selling for a premium, there was a market for a "mere" .38spl.

As @StrawHat and I offered, the difference in jump doesn't generally affect accuracy if all is in spec. Sounds like it's been both our experience.

 

[gconang]

Glad bullet jump doesn't affect accuracy. I love shooting 38 special in my Kimber. 357 not so much. However I have ordered a Loc Grips which may help with that.

 

[Ru4real]

Pro tip. Load 38 Special rounds to 1.50” overall loaded length. Exception: wad cutters

There is no downside. Upsides include full function in lever guns and better accuracy.

Example of an accurate 38 Spc load you won’t find elsewhere. Check out ES for 16” Rossi.

 

[cfullgraf]

My first 357 Magnum revolver is a 6” S&W Model 19 purchased new around 1980.

I shot lots of 38 Special target loads through it and I feel the accuracy was adequate for my abilities. I’ve never shot much full power 38 Special ammunition in the gun. But I shot enough full power 357 Magnum ammunition to crack the forcing cone. (S&W fixed the gun on their dime, btw. Don’t expect that today).

Since I reload, currently I load 158 grain SWC in 357 Mag cases to 950-1000 fps in a 4” barrel revolver. In my 357 Mag revolvers which include a 586 and 686 these days give good accuracy without wrist snapping recoil.

I don’t shoot 38 Special cases in my 357 Mag revolvers these days as I have several K-frame and J-frame 38 Special revolvers and I save the 38 Special cases for them.

 

[Curious2]

I have 2 6" GP 100s both with red dots. Both purchased new about 6 years apart and like the same ammo. With 38 or 357 cases HBWC coal 1.270" \ 1.400" using 3gr BE will give me sub 1" @ 25 yds. With 158gn RNFP 5gn 231 will give me the same accuracy @ 25 yds. The 158gn cronos out about 925 fps. Coal @ 1.510" taper crimp over the ogive. HBWC light taper crimp coal 1.400" . All 38 cases trimmed 1.140" and 357 @ 1.280". The 158gn works very well on a 6" steel @ 70 yds. Can do about 3" @ 25yds with 158gn Remington jacketed hp. Neither one of these guns will shoot a SWC worth a dam??? Kinda like some of us like tequila and some into Jack and some go for milk. The RNFP work so good I don't worry about the SWC anymore.
Now the big variable here is me having been on this planet approximately 30,000 revolutions. I always put out a good word to the COSMOS before going to the range!

May " The Force be With You "!

 

[StrawHat]

I don't doubt your experience, but if that were entirely the case I do wonder why the M14 remained in production when they could have just bored them all for Magnums and only produced the M19 going forwards.
Yes, I suppose politics may have played a role- many LE departments would not allow officers to carry .357s- but the M14 is still in production long after revolvers have lost all law enforcement relevance.

I think on some level S&W knew there was a practical accuracy reason for keeping the M14 going, even if it wasn't actually the "jump" issue.

The Model 14 was/is a wonderful revolver and made itself known in Bullseye competition. A 3.3 inch 10 ring, 50 yards away is a tiny target, the X ring is roughly half that size. The Model 14 was built for that competition.


The Magnums were not built for target shooting although they have been used for that purpose. The cumulative effects of recoil over the course of a match can and does affect scores.


Kevin

 

[Tallball]

Guns are like English cars; even if they were sequentially manufactured on the same day, and by the same people, each one has its own personality.

You may find a .38 load that puts a cylinder into 1.5” with your 586, or they may still shoot wide. The fun is trying to find that golden gun-bullet-powder charge combo.

Stay safe.

What he said. One Model 19 might "like" 158 grain 38 specials, the next one made right after it might be inaccurate with them. Their triggers probably aren't exactly the same, either.

The "jumping the gap" problem has yet to affect any of my 22/32/357/44/45 revolvers. If it's a real phenomenon, I'm not a good enough shot for it to matter.

 

[defjon]

Could maybe be the gun? I'm successful at the rifle range with my 6 inch 586 and 38s. Those steel targets start at 100 yards.

 

[ANATION]

Pro tip. Load 38 Special rounds to 1.50” overall loaded length. Exception: wad cutters

There is no downside. Upsides include full function in lever guns and better accuracy.

Example of an accurate 38 Spc load you won’t find elsewhere. Check out ES for 16” Rossi.

View attachment 1159152

I might take this advice. Most, but not all, of my 38s have been factory while all of my 357 are hand loads. I have plenty of TG Powder, assuming you mean Titegroup.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I find bullseye 3.3 grains behind 158 grain cast and plated. To be accurate with my Taurus tracker and my GP100. Both have 6 plus inch barrels.

 

[GooseGestapo]

removed by poster

 

[Ru4real]

I might take this advice. Most, but not all, of my 38s have been factory while all of my 357 are hand loads. I have plenty of TG Powder, assuming you mean Titegroup.

Yes, TG is Tightgroup. That MBC 180 grain coated bullet has a sharp square bottom so it seals up nicely.

It’s also long with a high sectional density so I’m betting even loping along at 900 FPS it will punch clear thru deer sized game. But I don’t know that as fact.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

The only other thing I can think of that you could do is what I did. But it will cost you $103.00. You could buy a dual ring resizing die from Redding. It leaves the body dia of the brass a little bigger to help center the shorter 38s in the cylinder so the front end of the cartridge isn't hanging down as far. With the shorter cartridge the bullet doesn't reach the throat in the cylinder so it is not in line with it or the barrel.

You could try this with a normal resizing die, also. Just raise it way up so the resizing ring only goes down the case the length of the bullet.
That will leave the rest of the case the full diameter and will keep the bullet lined up with the throat. I would try that before I spent the money on the dual ring die.
It will tell you if the problem is the load itself or your chambers are a little oversized and the bullets in the 38s aren't lined up well enough with the throats in the cylinder.

With a .357 length round the bullet is already in the throat so an over sized chamber won't be so apparent in the accuracy department.

It's a place to start and you don't have to buy anything extra to find out.

 

[Tall]

As the other posters have noted you likely have not found the 38 Special load that your revolver likes. Most of the ones I have are really happy with 148 Grain lead wadcutters. But that may not be the answer for yours.

 

[Thomasss]

I noticed that my 6" 586 loves 357 Mag, especially hot hand loads, but does not seem to like 38 Special. The accuracy with 158 and 124 is superb, 2 inch from 25 yards and 4 inch at 40--thats great for me, but it can't hit the broadside of a barn with any 38 Special. I'm ok with this since I mostly feed it 357 but I do find it peculiar. Any thoughts as to why this could be? Thanks

Some pictures might help and well as the loads you have tried. I have a Nichel 6 inch 586 and started shooting 25 yard targets. The trajectory is quite a bit different when using .38 Special. See what info you can dig up.