Swedish Mauser

[lionking]

Went out today, tested different ammo in the Enfield (separate thread coming soon) worked on sighting in the 1886 45-70 (it's getting there) and also tested S&B 140 gr SP in one of my Swede Mausers.

Brought out the 1915 Carl Gustav M96, 100 Yds rested on a front rest, 6 o'clock hold on the target. Shot a couple volleys of S&B and had five rounds of Prvi so shot them. Last time Prvi shot higher toward center this time it shot a little lower. The S&B was pretty dead on.

Best I'm getting with my skill is 2 inch plus groups of five no matter the ammo, I have tried Prvi several times, Hirtenberger surplus, and now S&B. I guess if I tried several upon several volleys I'd squeeze out less than 2 inch groups but my average seems to be the 2 inch plus but usually under 3 inch groups. Similar results I get with my 1916 Carl Gustav.

I'm not complaining though in fact 2 inch or slightly more I'm satisfied with given I use factory ammo. The Swedes are still among my most accurate milsurps I have. I imagine a scoped Swede in the right hands could make some super tight one inch or less groups. But I swear I'm staying away from the auctions sites looking for a sniper set up M41 Swede lol!........no no I won't ...well maybe one day.

 

[Jessesky]

Two inch groups with iron sights are good for most any milsurp, even Swiss guns! With the crude factory iron sights you will most always shoot worse than the rifles ability. I have an M41b, and it’s about an inch or a little above.

 

[TxRoadDog]

Handloads might can tighten that up a little bit. Swedes always seem to have a pretty good jump to the lands, but as Jessesky stated, you are doing pretty well. I wouldn't be dissatisfied with those groups at all. My swede is only slightly tighter than yours.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

I had that exact same rifle 30 yrs ago. I gave 40 buks for it. I had it changed into a very nice sporter. don't regret it at all. it one of my finest rifles.

I hunted with it for years, it killed with boring regularity, as it should.

when I was getting it sporterized I wanted the gunsmith to turn off the step in the barrel. he looked at me all horrified. he said we don't know why they put that step in the barrel but we know it works and I wont do it.

 

[lionking]

I had that exact same rifle 30 yrs ago. I gave 40 buks for it. I had it changed into a very nice sporter. don't regret it at all. it one of my finest rifles.

I hunted with it for years, it killed with boring regularity, as it should.

when I was getting it sporterized I wanted the gunsmith to turn off the step in the barrel. he looked at me all horrified. he said we don't know why they put that step in the barrel but we know it works and I wont do it.

That you say "had" implies you no longer have it, would love to see photo of it. Being I love milsurps sporterizing can make some like me cringe a bit given that as time goes by old surplus availability become less and less and the cost more and more but I cannot deny that a sporter done right has it's own beauty.

 

[boom boom]

I had that exact same rifle 30 yrs ago. I gave 40 buks for it. I had it changed into a very nice sporter. don't regret it at all. it one of my finest rifles.

I hunted with it for years, it killed with boring regularity, as it should.

when I was getting it sporterized I wanted the gunsmith to turn off the step in the barrel. he looked at me all horrified. he said we don't know why they put that step in the barrel but we know it works and I wont do it.

The stepped barrels on Mausers is first to lessen production costs by reducing time to make rifles--both the barrel and inletting stocks are simplified, the second is that it appears to affect barrels in a good way as they increase in length when they get hot and the increased length can be accounted for in the stock inletting. At least if you believe Olson's book on Mausers which has Peter Mauser himself coming to that conclusion.

 

[lionking]

Just noticed another Swedish thread down below, post #15 random 8 showed a target result that shows the Swede can be crazy accurate with the right shooter.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/swedish-mauser-model-1896-question.844179/

 

[Random 8]

Yours is about par for mine when I shoot PRVI factory loads to make brass. It will hold 10 on an SR-1 but barely. Handloads, as far as I can run the bullet out and still cycle the magazine tighten it up considerably to 80-90%X. My sights/eyes do not like a 6 oclock hold on black circles, I get vertical stringing. I do better with a center hold with the M96 or any open tangent sight. I do better with 6 on aperture and post sights such as the M1 and AR15 A2 sights.

Just to be devil's advocate here and spend some of your money, I've seen an M41B run clean at 300 and 99 at 600 yards with a very high X count on the vintage sniper course. The one "miss" was a freak wind gust that got everybody on the line. Wish I'd gotten one when they were affordable.

 

[Archie]

I am a 6.5x55mm Swede fan, including the M94, M96 and M38 versions. When shooting for groups with the original rifles there are a couple things to be kept in mind.

One: The original military load used a 160 grain (actually 10.1 gram or 156+/- grain) bullet. Original velocity was in the high 2300s fps range.
Two: It was a battle rifle. Between the full stock, the iron sights and issue ammo it was designed to group on the torso of an enemy of the Kingdom. They, in the main, shoot a bunch better than that but the design goal was not a long range target rifle.

By the same token, such a rifle that will stop an enemy soldier at 300 yards or so will probably do for most middle sized game at less - which is typical.

Three: The 160 grain 6.5 diameter bullet has a fair amount of sectional density. Which assures good penetration on game.

 

[JohnKSa]

Back when my eyes were very good, I could shoot 1" groups with my Swede and the original open sights. I had a friend who had one with the peep sights, and it was pretty easy to shoot little bitty groups with that one. The Swedish surplus ammo always seemed to shoot very well for me. Not so much some of the new factory ammo I tried.

A good Swede is a very accurate rifle with ammo it likes. Wish I could still prove it but these days I'd need to install a scope first.

 

[mpd61]

6.5 Swedish .......
The original 6.5 from 125 years ago that has, is, and will be doing ANYTHING the 6.5 Creedmoor can do

 

[eastbank]

shooting the S&B you shoot a 50 with one ten X and a 48 with no ten x with PP ammo, not to shabby indeed. with younger eyes and steadier hands I think those groups would be better.

 

[lionking]

.

Just to be devil's advocate here and spend some of your money, I've seen an M41B run clean at 300 and 99 at 600 yards with a very high X count on the vintage sniper course. The one "miss" was a freak wind gust that got everybody on the line. Wish I'd gotten one when they were affordable.

Yeah well any surplus sniper rifle these days, Swedish, M1903, Garand, Enfield and such commands a premium in price I mean thousands upon thousands of dollars, while I could do it and get myself in debt but I'd rather not but maybe a alternative would get one of the scope mounts that replaces the rear sight base which would not permanently alter a relic but that means a setup that is like a scout scope which I 'm not rather keen on but could live with I guess to have a scoped Swede and still use a basic straight bolt Swede.

And besides just mentioning the Garand sniper , I'm left handed shooter so the scope off center of the rifle doesn't do me well either so I would never be interested in a Garand sniper.

 

[LRDGCO]

2" with military sights is plenty good IMHO. Beauty of a rifle!

 

[saiga308]

throat could be worn some
you may want to go with a longer bullet weight, my k11 throat is long of course its a 308 conversion had to stretch out 178 amax rounds to the limit in the case to get tight groups
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/6-5-throat-depth-mil-sup-vs-commerical.384401/

It's been my experience that the fast twist of the Swede barrel is not as accurate with the lighter 100gr. and 129 gr. flat base bullets. Longer boattail bullets in the lighter weights may work ok. The Swede barrels love the 140gr. and up as a rule.

 

[HEAVY METAL 1]

Two things:
1) your sling is on backwards-----see this: http://dutchman.rebooty.com/am-coll.html
2) Are you shooting with your black foam rests just like you have the rifle in the picture? If you are that will hamper your accuracy. Take the sling off when you shoot and don't rest the rifle's sling hanger on the bag. If you do the barrel will jump and ruin your shots. If you use good sand bags and nestle the rifle in them your groups will improve. Although I don't know for sure, yours appear to be very firm.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

The stepped barrels on Mausers is first to lessen production costs by reducing time to make rifles

I have always been told that the stepped barrels were made for another reason. The steps were there to allow the barrel to remain stable in the stock when long strings of shots were fired. Look at the amount of careful fitting and finishing those Swedish rifles certainly suggest the steps were for accuracy. The Germans, in the end, did not trash the steps in WW2 based on what I have seen.

 

[boom boom]

Mowgli Terry, I believe you are right on the order of things after a bit of further research mentioned below. First was accuracy and then easing manufacturing if you go by Mauser's patent information below.

The stepped barrel feature came about about 1892 with the Spanish models (trials version in 92 and then the 93 production model) and was carried forward. The Mauser 71, 71/84, GEW 88 (not strictly a Mauser design but an unholy cross of Mauser and Mannlicher designs), and the early 89 Mausers did not originally use stepped barrels --not sure about the 90 and 91 models (see Smith, WH @pg. 107 in his Mauser, Walther, and Mannlicher book).

Here what Peter Mauser's 1891 Patent application had to say on the subject:

"In rapid firing the barrel becomes heated and therefore expands or lengthens. Heretofore its fastenings have not permitted it to lengthen when expanded by this heating, and the barrel therefore having a contracted front could engaging the front end of the barrel. This arrangement, however, did not allow the free lengthening of the barrel due to expansion, and it had the further disadvantage that it either increased the weight of the arm, or, if the barrel was made correspondingly lighter, reduced its stability. The present invention aims to overcome these difficulties and produces a gun-barrel which can expand and lengthen freely and is as stiff and strong as any ordinary gun barrel of the same weight. It also provides improved means whereby the front and back sights can be easily mounted and adjusted, and means whereby the back end of the barrel can be readily adjusted to the closing-bolt in case the tight joint at this place should have been destroyed by too frequent firing." ( I corrected a few typos from the OCR mistakes that you can see in the original google source below.)

https://patents.google.com/patent/US451768?oq=451768#v=onepage&q=451768&f=false

From what I remember of Olson's argument, (the book has went walk about right now), the stepped barrel eased stock and sight fittings and made it easier to make consistent stocks and sights versus a tapered barrel, have no idea personally as I am not a machinist whether a tapered or stepped barrel itself is easier to mass produce. Thus, more rapid assembly of the whole rifle could be accomplished as a system via the stepped barrel. Also not sure whether it is cheaper in materials which is implied in the patent application.

 

[lionking]

Two things:
1) your sling is on backwards-----see this: http://dutchman.rebooty.com/am-coll.html
2) Are you shooting with your black foam rests just like you have the rifle in the picture? If you are that will hamper your accuracy. Take the sling off when you shoot and don't rest the rifle's sling hanger on the bag. If you do the barrel will jump and ruin your shots. If you use good sand bags and nestle the rifle in them your groups will improve. Although I don't know for sure, yours appear to be very firm.

No the black foam I only use for display and cleaning purposes, I use the caldwell rest like in this photo with my 1909 Argentine, which by the way I have squeezed out less that 2 inch groups with it before but usually I do similar with it as I do a Swede.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

The stepped barrel feature came about about 1892

First up my experience shooting Swedish Mauser's is very similar to OP's groups. I could beat that with a Lyman 48 on a 1903 Springfield. To me, the size groups OP was getting was about as good as it gets with original sights. The Swede's did not allow their rifles to fall into a state of dilapidation. I was shooting PPU cartridges.The destruction heaped on Swedish Mauser happened here by the Bubba Custom Gun and Bumper Plating Shop or similar.

No matter how hard you, or anybody else, works to clarify somebody gonna come up with a "yes but" exception. As to steps the German Kar98 WWI carbine has a smooth tapered barrel. If IIRC that carbine dated from 1908. In the day that action was know as a "small ring" because it was a small ring 98