Tactical Advantage?

[kannonfyre]

For the purposes of academic discussion, let us assume that social order has broken down as in the New Orleans scenario. You live in a large town and have EXTREMELY poor relations with your neighbour a few doors away.

Anyway, a few days after the SHTF, you are scavaging in an open area near your home when lo and behold, you encounter your neighbour doing the same thing in the general area!

Upon seeing whatever it is that you have salvaged nearby, he claims whatever you have in your hands as his, sharp words are exchanged, threats are made and he starts to ready his semi-auto 20" barrel shotgun.

You have a .357 magnum 6" barrel revolver in a shoulder holster loaded with handloaded +P 158gr LRN .38 special loads. If we assume that your neighbour only has 2 3/4" shells loaded with 7.5 size birdshot in his shotgun, the distance between you two is 30 meters and the terrain is fairly open, who would have the tactical advantage?

Assmume that both of your are quite proficient with your firearms.

 

[palerider1]

well he's got the jump on you, but you have a little distance on your side. 90 feet worth. i'd say you may get a little buckshot in your fanny, but it wouldnt kill you most likely and you could easily finish him off with the .357. i would say you have the tactical advantage. now if you were 10 feet apart, then youd be hurtin.

 

[jeepmor]

You have advantage of power for the range

357 bullet will stop him at 100 feet. Shotgun very likely will not stop you. Unless he shoots and hits you in the eyes, I suspect you will be able to get a shot off.

What is it your fighting over anyway. Just drop it and say, sorry man, it's all yours.

jeepmor

 

[Oldtimer]

HMM! Just a few days after the SHTF and you're already out scavenging? Those few days should have been put to good use by assessing the situation and making the decision whether to bug IN or OUT.

You ASSUME that your neighbor has 2-3/4" #7.5 shotgun shells in his shotgun? That's an assumption that I wouldn't make!

30 meters isn't all that far, even IF the shotgun is loaded with #7.5 birdshot. What if just a couple of pellets hit your eyes?

I would "assume" nothing, other than the possibility of that shotgun being loaded with either slugs or "00" buck. Slugs can be lethal out to more than 100 yards! Several years ago, a police officer was killed by "friendly fire". He was at a distance of 80 yards away from another officer who fired a magnum 2-3/4" "00" buck shell at an armed suspect who was between the two officers. The deceased officer was struck with only ONE pellet...in the head.

While the scenario you described MIGHT give you a slight edge, it would only be because of your accuracy level with your revolver. On the other hand, I think that your neighbor would have the "tactical advantage", due to the number of pellets that would be flying toward you. After all, this would qualify as somewhat of a "combat"-type of shooting, and 30 meters is quite a distance to shoot a handgun under tense circumstances.

"Oh, this belongs to YOU? Okay!". That's how I would handle that scenario....."assuming" that you can scavenge elsewhere without having to get into a shoot-out with your neighbor!

 

[Biker]

Depends on what the item is. A 12 pack o' cheap brew? He's a dead man. Hey! I didn't like him anyway...
Seriously, if he's already drawing down on me, who says he's going to cease and desist if I apologise?
Biker

 

[1911Tuner]

Shotgun

At 30 feet, a charge of birdshot will probably drop you like a sack of wet laundry. Go shoot a 12X16 inch steel plate at 30 feet and see how hard it hits. Sorta like gettin' punched in the chest by Jack Dempsey.

 

[Biker]

I believe that the stated distance was 30 meters. Big difference. Me? If I'm outside, I'm usually wearing my Harley Davidson safety sunglasses. They've been tested with 71/2 birdshot. There's a pair at the shop my employer buys them at. If it's buckshot, I'm dead, but the scenario stated birdshot. In any case, it looks like he's gonna pull the trigger anyway.
Biker

 

[1911Tuner]

30/30

AH! So it was Biker. My bad. Haste is my only excuse...

 

[Biker]

Man, every time I read one of your posts, my eye involuntarily strays down to your sig and within 10 seconds, I'm off this thing and petting my dogs.
No joke...
Biker

 

[1911Tuner]

Man, every time I read one of your posts, my eye involuntarily strays down to your sig and within 10 seconds, I'm off this thing and petting my dogs.
No joke...
Biker

Excellent! You won't be sorry.

Back to the encounter...Advantage still goes to the man with the scattergun. Easier to hit a man with a 3-foot pattern in a hurry than with a handgun...and even at 100 feet, a charge of birdshot ain't a small thing. N.O. was a pretty nasty place after the storms. What's worse...Dead right there...or lingering for two weeks while infection, gangrene, and septicemia
turn your whole body into a garbage can?

Not a pleasant thought...

 

[Biker]

True enough, but at 93 feet, I doubt that the 7.5 shot would even penetrate a pair of jeans (just a guess on my part). If I was sure beyond a doubt that he'd cease hostilities, I'd back out, but if he's already raising the dozen gauge, that'd be a heck of a gamble.
Of course, there is already the pre-existing problem of great, shared animosity.
Course, I could just put the 12 pack in front of me, draw my .357 and shout "Drop the gun or the beer gets it!"
It'd work on me...
Biker

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Pair of jeans....probably not, except possibly in the case of a 1.5-ounce/2 and 3/4 inch high-brass load...or a 2-ounce/3-inch load...and if the center of the pattern was high, you could expect to catch a few in the face, hands, neck, etc. Nasty stuff, birdshot. So many...and so hard to get to with the ice pick and tweezers.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Hit the dirt. Smoke the SOB. Take his stuff and your's and go home.

AFS

 

[Biker]

1911 Tuner...

A fair point, and I seem to recall reading a study which showed that most people (right-handers) shoot high and a bit to the left when shooting fast and under stress. Hmmm...
Biker

 

[raghorn]

Good discussion based on the scenario, but would we really go into a situation like this assumimg a guy pointing a shotgun our way was using birdshot? Just food for thought.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Good discussion based on the scenario, but would we really go into a situation like this assumimg a guy pointing a shotgun our way was using birdshot? Just food for thought.

No. If he's already got the drop on you, you've lost that one. The goods are his. If he's carrying the gun slung or even in one hand by his side, you may be able to get the drop on him. Just don't miss, because it'll likely be your only chance. A shotgun with an open choke is a serious threat even with an off-centered aim from about 50 feet out to 150. The chances of catching the edge of the pattern are pretty good, and gettin' shot is always bad...
even with a few small pellets in non-vital places. You can go from healthy
to septic in just a few hours. Without prompt and aggressive treatment, septicemia will generally kill you pretty quickly...though some would say not quickly enough.

 

[one-shot-one]

been hit with bird shot

while hunting quail at a distance of about 70yrds. half of that distance is gonna hurt. i worked with a guy from new york state that said when he was a kid, he and his friends would get on the football field and with their heavy winter clothes on and their backs to the shooter that they would shoot each other at a hundred yards and back towards each other till it hurt to much to continue (i have no validation other than his word). he said at 50 yards #6's stung to bad to continue. that said you are probably not going to think of all this while joe from next door is pointing a shotgun at you so i say move sideways and return fire if needed.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

I would say the odds are in his favor of getting a hit on the first shot, however you are more likely to drop him w/ one shot. Having seen what bird-shot does to game and heard what it does to men, odds are that one, even two blast from that distance would not be imediately fatal (painful yes, fatal no). On the other hand a .357 from that distance has a very good chance of being fatal.

Very Worst Case: he gets lucky and a pellet hits a major artery, you bleed out slowly while he runs away quickly.

Worst Case: he hits you and sticks around, you still have time to shoot him...both die.

Bad Case: He hits you with minor injuries, you drop the SOB.

Better Case: he misses/misfires

Best Case: you draw down on him and he realizes he doesn't want to have to fight for your salvage (he didn't expect you to be armed) and he retreats.

 

[Devonai]

Let's say I make my perception check and I know where the nearest useful cover is. In this scenario I'm going to run as fast as I can, ideally laterally from the threat, and grab some cover. Even an 18" berm is enough if the threat isn't elevated relative to my position. On the way there I'm drawing my weapon.

If there isn't any cover, I turn and fire. If there is cover I use it, then fire. In either case I'm still going to be moving as fast as I can until my weapon is ready.

I've also dropped whatever I was carrying, so hopefully he'll think twice about firing.

 

[carebear]

.

 

[carebear]

Let's say I make my perception check and I know where the nearest useful cover is.

Devonai rolls a one.

 

[V4Vendetta]

Very Worst Case: he gets lucky and a pellet hits a major artery, you bleed out slowly while he runs away quickly.

Worst Case: he hits you and sticks around, you still have time to shoot him...both die.

Bad Case: He hits you with minor injuries, you drop the SOB.

Better Case: he misses/misfires

Best Case: you draw down on him and he realizes he doesn't want to have to fight for your salvage (he didn't expect you to be armed) and he retreats.

+1.

 

[nfl1990]

True enough, but at 93 feet, I doubt that the 7.5 shot would even penetrate a pair of jeans (just a guess on my part).

I know from experiance that #8 will penatrate about 1/4 of plywood at about 21yds.

 

[1911Tuner]

Plywood

I know from experiance that #8 will penatrate about 1/4 of plywood at about 21yds.

Well.......Back to the part about a charge of birdshot ain't a small thing, I reckon.

I know from experience that #6s will penetrate a heavy hunting jacket about 75 or 80 feet out and leave little bruises on your back, if that helps.

 

[kannonfyre]

Anyone know?

If the antagonistic neighbour in my example had been using a full choke (or one designed to concentrate pellet patterns) what kind of penetration could he expect from 2 3/4" shells with 7.5 pellets at 30 meters?

What kind of penetration in ballistic gel does the above set up produce?