tactical conversion problems

[spartanws6]

Hey folks....

I have finally hit a dead end and am hoping you guys can help me out. I have a winchester 1300 defender that is bone stock right with with the exception of a aftermarket stock. I am looking to make this my patrol shotgun and these are the problems I am running into.

1) I would like to install a non-drilling/tapping sight rail on the shotgun... I also need to install a side saddle shell carrier on it. Is there any way to do both? In a perfect world I found this....... (check out shell carrier and rail on the bottom of page)
http://www.mesatactical.com/sc_index.php?cPath=30&osCsid=284ad9cf57ad93c6b70606faa623c2c5

but, comma, however, I am plagued with owning the 1300.... the premier shotgun that companies don't make accessories for. It seems that any rail system and side saddle shell carrier would us the same holes to install. How can I get around this?

2) Ghost rings. I would like to use the above mentioned sight rail to install these, but once again I am trying to stay away from drilling and tapping. Are there any front and rear sights that do not require drilling or saudering?

thanks ahead of time for any help!

 

[Userzero]

I was thinking of buying the "Deluxe heat shield with ghost ring sights" from ATI. They require no gun smithing and are not very expensive. But are they any good?

http://www.atigunstocks.com/product-mossberg2.html

 

[spartanws6]

funny, I was looking at those also. I did a lot of forum reading at different sights and the general consensis is that ATI does not make a quality product. I have issues with "nylon ghost rings". A couple of folks have said these things will break of easily. Not the kind of product I need in a patrol car

 

[B yond]

ATI heatshield with sights

I've got one on my mossy 500's HD barrel. The sights on it are pretty much useless. they're totally non-adjustable and will wiggle loose after a few hundred rounds unless you loctite them into place.

I think the basic idea is that since its a shotgun you don't need much accuracy, and they're ok for shot loads, but I wouldn't rely on them for slug shooting. I think the point and shoot method is more accurate than trying to line up these sights.

That said, the heatshield has saved me a few burns during busy days at the range.

 

[Robert Hairless]

There's a broken heart for every light on Broadway. B Square makes a sight mount for the Winchester 1300 that straddles the receiver and fastens to it through existing holes, but it's clearly unsuitable for use on a patrol shotgun:

I can't imagine how you'd fasten ghost ring sights or any others to the shotgun without drilling or silver soldering.

The best, the easiest, and the most economical way I can think of to turn that shotgun into a good patrol shotgun is to replace a few parts with those for a Remington 870. Replace the stock with a Youth Stock for a Remington 870. If the stock won't fit on the Winchester receiver, replace the receiver with one for a Remington 870. And if the Winchester barrel won't fit the new Remington 870 receiver, replace that barrel with one for a Remington 870.

You would then have a shotgun that looks and functions exactly like a Remington 870. That strategy would allow you to tap into the many aftermarket parts available for the Remington 870. And then you could reassemble the discarded Winchester parts into a complete shotgun and use it as is for some other purpose.

 

[spartanws6]

lol that was good

 

[Robert Hairless]

spartanws6:

lol that was good

I'm glad you enjoyed it and even happier that you took it in the right spirit. Sometimes it works. Many other times it doesn't and I have to duck the incoming missles.

Seriously, though, I've learned from experience that it rarely pays to adapt something into something else. I've heard good things about your shotgun, so I'm not knocking it--and you understood that I wasn't. But the Remington 870 probably is more suitable for your purpose and more easily configured. It's also one hell of a great pump shotgun. The bonus is that it's relatively inexpensive. There's no contest here, I think.

By the way, is there some specific reason why you want ghost ring sights? I find that they retard target acquisition at least a little and, with apologies to Jeff Cooper, they seem not in the spirit of a good tactical shotgun. I confess it: I love tactical shotguns, I think that they're extremely versatile tools, much underrated and much misunderstood, and as much fun for sporting purposes (tactical exercises, which I enjoy, not shooting Huey, Dewey, and Louie, which I don't enjoy) as they are effective. But for me a shotgun needs to be fast, easily manipulated, and unencumbered.

I prefer either a highly visible bead on the front or, for longer distances with slugs, rifle sights. The rifle sights actually work well (for me) at any range and with buckshot as well as slugs because when I need to work fast at closer ranges my eyes look past the rear sight and focus on the front sight. If there's need for more precise aim with slugs at any distance, rifle sights let me do that too. And they have the benefit (for me) of being similar enough to my pistol and rifle sights so that my brain doesn't have to process unnecessary information.

Of course other people have different needs and approaches to addressing them, so all I'm doing is mentioning mine.

 

[spartanws6]

I am a huge fan of your train of thought (K.I.S.S) ... at this point I was weighing my options with the guages... basically use what I already own and make it cooler .... or start over fresh with the 870.

Basically my thoughts on the ghost rings is my working hours. I am on the yard in downtown las vegas and I won't be going anywhere for awhile (daylight at least). I have tried the different sights in low light conditions and the ghost rings were by far the most "fluid" sights for me. I agree in different conditions I am a fan of rifle sights... the ghost rings worked the best for me in the dark.

while we are on the subject... my next move is to purchase the 870P max model. Are there any LE suppliers that you know of, or companies that can give a good price for this model? I have read on different forums folks picking this up for around 750... my local shops (even with the LE nod) are around 900-1000 out the door. I am looking for more options than shelling out the same kind of cash for my duty AR.

thx for your input on this... and by all means if you think of any other options than the MAX route or have any thoughts please share. thx!

 

[dfariswheel]

A non-drill, non-silver braze front sight is no problem. Brownell's sell several high-quality CLAMP-ON front sights:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...MINGTON+SHOTGUN+TACTICAL+GHOST+RING+SIGHT+SET

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=9203&title=TACTICAL+SHOTGUN+SIGHTS

The problem is going to be the rear, since all receiver mount ghost ring sight's require drilling and tapping to mount.

One option, is that several makers build receiver sights that clap to a rail, for use on the AR-15/M-16/M4 rifles and carbines. Likely, one of these could be attached to the rail.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5556&title=AR-15+DETACHABLE+REAR+SIGHT

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=20750&title=AR-15+CQB+TACTICAL+SIGHTS

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=17362&title=AR-15+FLIP-UP+REAR+SIGHT

And several others.

As far as I know, no one makes a no-drill/no-tap mount that will also clear a receiver mount ghost ring and a side saddle.

For what you want to do, you're almost going to have to at least drill and tap the receiver.

As a police officer, I'd find out about buying a MAX either through your department, or from your department source. You can probably get a MUCH better price that way.

Here's several places that sell Remington Police guns, including the MAX.
http://www.capoliceequip.com/ MAX is $900.00

http://www.territorialsupplies.com/

http://www.impactguns.com/store/ MAX is $919.00.

 

[Robert Hairless]

My observation is that dfariswheel always knows what he's talking about, so I'd go the route he advises for buying a new 870P Max. My own sense of prices for it is that somewhere in the $900-$925 range is the street price for a new one. Buying it through the Internet would add another $25 or more for shipping and an additional $25 or more for the FFL fee on your end. No bargain.

I understand your reason for wanting ghost ring sights. What works for you is always best, I think.

It's hard for me to avoid saying that I really don't like a pistol grip on a shotgun, though. I've taken a few tactical shotgun courses and the people who use stocks with pistol grips seem to find that they get in the way at least sometimes. Me, I find them awkward all the time because they interfere with the shotgun's maneuverability. Maybe I'm just a klutz. But I also haven't found that they give any additional control or other benefit. They certainly don't make rapid fire faster or assist in managing recoil, at least not for me. For me what counts in those matters are the stock length (shorter is better) and a proper hold on the gun. The hold is crucial. A pistol grip interferes with it, for me. But here too it's a matter of what works for you.

The SureFire M618FA on the 870P Max is essential for serious work. I suggest that you get at least one spare DL223AC battery stick for it immediately: they don't seem to be readily available at all times. In a pinch you could use two CR123A batteries (available at WalMart's camera department, Radio Shack, and camera stores) but they don't hold up under fire as well as the battery stick. I'd also get a spare lamp assembly because the lamp in mine died a sudden death when my shotgun banged against something during a drill. That's probably a fluke and the only time it ever happened to anyone, but after it happened I bought two of them: one as an immediate replacement and the other as a spare. Without batteries and a lamp, the SureFire is just an expensive appendage.

For me the two-round magazine extension on the 870P Max also is essential. Wonderful tools that they are, one downside to the shotgun is its limited capacity and relatively awkward reloading. Without the two additional rounds at the start I'd prefer to skip the party and stay home to watch reruns of Becker or Frazier.

One strong suggestion, if you don't mind: practice loading and firing one shell at a time until you get to the point at which you're really smooth at it. It's a skill that could save your skin. You'll want to do it when party poopers won't let you take the time to reload the entire tube or even top it off. Work for smooth instead of fast. Smooth becomes fast.

And, as the kicker, always do it with your left hand (assuming that your strong hand is your right hand) and always do it by reaching under the shotgun, never over it. That way you keep your shotgun on target at all times and are always focused on it without letting your left arm block your eyes for a moment. Of course I know that it can't be done, so there's no point in telling me that. Do it anyway.

When you get to the point of being able to do it smoothly, without taking the shotgun or your eyes off the target, get somebody to time you and prepare to be amazed at your speed. An important part of the loading technique involves holding the shells properly in your weak hand (between its second finger and pinky, with the tip of its second finger tucked into the crimp at the shell's business end) and using a proper index on the shotgun so you never miss the loading port. After a while it's actually easier than loading the tube, and much faster too. When you're good at it, start doing it with your eyes closed. After a short time of doing that smoothly you'll find that your speed has increased.

Last suggestion. Take at least the basic tactical shotgun course offered by Louis Awerbuck or Randy Cain. Those two know what they're doing, they know what you should be doing as a law enforcement officer, and they don't compromise about anything that could adversely affect their students' lives. (Both of them teach and drill the loading technique I mentioned above, by the way.) I think they charge about $450 for that course. It's a bargain. Expect to spend your nights cursing whichever one you chose, and the horse he rode in on, while the course is in progress and you realize that you've subjected yourself to long days of discipline by a determined madman. Of course neither of them are mad: their standards are extremely high in all things, which is one mark of a valuable instructor, and both of them are. At the end of the course, though, you'll be a titan with that most marvelous of tools: a shotgun that sings at your command. For subsequent fun, see if you can get into Masaad Ayoob's tactical shotgun course and learn additional things with other approaches from another person who understands police work as well as the situations of those who are not in law enforcement. I know that all this costs money, but what else would you do with the money except waste it on frivolities such as food and rent and other nonsense? In your profession, where your life is at risk and you are responsible for the lives of others, this is money well spent I think.

 

[spartanws6]

thanks for all the input fellas. Looks like I will be going with the MAX model. Strange, even with the le "discount" from remington, they quoted me 917 not including shipping. It appears i can actually get this weapon cheaper on the net. I appreciate all of the thoughts and input!

 

[KaceCoyote]

what iron sight to use up front if you were to use an AR rear sight? I rather like that idea, throw a rail on top, and then I can put glass on it as well.