Tactical shotgun vs comparable hunting shotgun

[Damnit]

Hi folks, first post so don't flame me ;p

I want to solicit some opinions on home defense shotguns. I love these all black tactical shotguns with high capacities, pistol grips, and recoil absorbing adjustable pistol grip stocks, but there's a problem. I'm concerned that if I get one, and then, God help me, some maniac breaks into my house to murder me, the prosecutor will charge me with murder when I shoot him. Then, the prosecutor will hold up my tactical home defense gun in front of a jury and say something like, "Just look at this weapon. Have you ever seen a more evil looking weapon in your lives? You can tell just looking at it that it was made to murder people." A rational person might say that such an appeal is irrelevant, but I have personally heard a judge call the AK-47 "the weapon of choice for the most evil people in the world." Would it be better from me to buy a handsome hunting 12ga with a 20 inch barrel and a walnut stock for home defense?

Thanks

 

[Chopdoktor]

Use the tool that is most effective for the job. I have a few "tactical" style shotguns, but there is almost nothing on them that puts them at any great advantage over a standard shorter-barreled 12 gauge shotgun like you described. A flashlight is nice, and maybe a saddle for spare shells, but beyond that... it's all just fun 'operator' stuff that doesn't give the usual home-defender any real advantage over stock. Go with what you feel safe with, not with what you think the judge and jury will like.

 

[jiminhobesound]

tactical shotguns

Your tactical shotgun is perfectly legal. You have a God give and constitutional right to defend yourself and your family. Do not fear. Do not let the wrong people influence your thinkiing. Which would you rather have, a lawyer accusing you of having a man killing weapon, or your life, or the life of your family? Man UP

 

[Jason_W]

The word tactical is largely just a marketing tool. I bought a Benelli Nova Tactical, though I actually bought it for sporting purposes. I figure the ghost ring sight coupled with its short OAL will make it a great close range, thick brush deer gun.

Don't get me wrong, it will also work for home defense and all . . .

 

[Chopdoktor]

Jiminhobesound is exactly right. Pick the best tool for the job, be it a double-barrel or semi-auto magazine-fed shotty. Your call.

 

[Creature]

You can always introduce a tactical shotgun to a hunting shotgun...and after a little time, they might spawn one of these:

 

[USAF_Vet]

If the prosecutor is saying that, and your attorney is sitting on his hands, you need a new lawyer.

The fact that it has (hypothetically speaking) gone to trial, there is something else that has gone drastically wrong.

Does putting black grip tape on a Louisville Slugger make it a tactical crushing device?

 

[walking arsenal]

The AK-47 "the weapon of choice for the most evil people in the world."

Well nuts. My AK IS my home defense gun.

I've worried about the same thing D. My trusty AK is the most non PC rifle ever but up here in the great white north it just seems like such a logical choice for the cold weather.

Like with your shotgun I too wonder what would happen if I used it or if someone even saw it. Would the judge go "Oh it's just a .30 cal carbine." or would he say "The AK-47 is the weapon of choice for the most evil people in the world."

 

[HGM22]

I didn't read the whole thread so please pardon me if this has been talked about, but I seem to recall a study being done where two groups of people were given the same (hypothetical) self defense shooting case. The only difference was that Group A's defendant used a "sporting" arm (revolver, lever gun, double barrel, etc.) and Group B's defendant used a "tactical" gun (Glock, AR15, etc.). SAME case, but higher guilty rate for Group B. So while it shouldn't matter, perceptions DO matter. That being said, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so use what is best for you I think (and get a good lawyer!).

If anyone knows of a link to this study that'd be great; I'd like to look at it again myself.

 

[Mudinyeri]

How about a handsome side-by-side with matte nickel receiver and barrels and a handsome walnut stock?

Surely, no prosecutor could hold this weapon up in court and call it evil!

 

[Walkalong]

I have personally heard a judge call the AK-47 "the weapon of choice for the most evil people in the world.

Judge is an idiot.

I don't care which weapon I save my life, and the lives of my loved ones, with. I'll take my chances later. Knife, bat, brick, AK, who cares.

no prosecutor could hold this weapon up in court and call it evil!

Remember, prosecutors don't mind telling little fibs.

 

[monet61]

Well this is by our bed AND it works good on quail!
(The one in the middle)
If it's a legal weapon, and you've a legal right to own it, then as others say, letting a prosecuter get away with stuff like that is on your attorney.

 

[Tommygunn]

I love these all black tactical shotguns with high capacities, pistol grips,

Some "tactical" shotguns come with stocks and pistol grips. These are OK. Just FYI, I would avoid the type of shottie that just has the pistol grip alone where the stock would be. They look really cool and all, but IMHO they are impractical; shotguns do have recoil and that stock, while adding length, is very useful in controling recoil, and you are gonna really want to hit what you're aiming at (maybe more than once) if you're using this for defensive purposes.
Not sure you're talking about this kind of shottie, just adding an opinion, that is all.

 

[Bushpilot]

Hey Damnit, I understand your concern and after reading a couple of Massad Ayoobs books believe that it is unfortunately a legitimate concern. I don’t think you are going to be giving up much, if anything, in choosing a sporting style shotgun for home defense as opposed to a "tactical" style. If I recall correctly I believe my Winchester model 12 has the highest capacity of any shotgun that I own (one more than a standard 870 or 500) so if you're looking for capacity you might consider one. You also might consider getting a shotgun with a smoothbore slug barrel because it will have an open choke and probably be shorter than standard. You also could add an elastic shell holder that goes around the butt stock.

 

[buck460XVR]

If the prosecutor is saying that, and your attorney is sitting on his hands, you need a new lawyer.

The fact that it has (hypothetically speaking) gone to trial, there is something else that has gone drastically wrong.

^^^ ...this. If there was a question as to whether or not the SD shoot was justifiable, the DA may try and show that you are a mall ninja and were waiting on pins and needles for any reason to use your weapon. But if it's truly a justifiable shoot, as long as the weapon and the cartridges are legal, the type of weapon, nor the type of ammo is gonna make it bad.

 

[Millwright]

Regardless of contrary opinions expressed here, yours is an intelligent question, Damnit !

Your future is going to be in the hands of twelve people who may/or not have any acqaintence with shotguns and a judge with power to inflict their personal bias via jury "instructions". A "tactical" shotgun, replete with rails, lights, lasers, holo sights, extended magazine, folding stock, pistol grip and an ugly black finish isn't going to do your case any good when the prosecution waves in front of a jury of grandmothers. Particularly after he's introduced pictures of paramilitary militias toting the same arms.

OTOH, dead is dead and you're in deep doo doo. But if the arm used looks like an ordinary gun anyone would have for sporting purposes your attorney can make an "in extremis" argument work for you. Might also help to have a history of hunting license purchases or membership in a trap/skeet club as well........>MW

 

[Owen Sparks]

Most of the stuff people hang on "tactical" shotguns is not needed. The only accessory you really need is a light. Slings get in the way and besides, it is not like you need it in your house. How far do you have to carry a shotgun in your home?

 

[Davek1977]

A "good shoot" is a good shoot, regardless of the weapon. I wouldn't hesitate to use either my AR or AK if thats what was handy "when needed". Neither are my primary home defense weapons, but their appearance wouldn't preclude me from using either of them to defend my life or the lives of my family. Of course, here in South Dakota, we tend to have a pretty severe shortage of overzealous prosecutors out to criminalize those forced to use a gun in self-defense, but really, if the shooting was indeed self-defense, the gun itself shouldn't really be relavent.

 

[Sam1911]

A "good shoot" is a good shoot, regardless of the weapon.

Once again, as we've so often posted in the last month or so, a "good shoot" (if there is such a thing) is NOT a "good shoot" if you're sitting in a courtroom. If you've made it to trial, you are at serious risk, and anything you say, or said, or used, or did, or didn't do will all come back to help or hurt.

Member GEM has written on his studies of how the type of weapon a defender used affects a jury's perceptions -- posted the results of scientific studies conducted ont his subject, that is -- and his words would be worth consideration.

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/0...s-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/

 

[Usmc-1]

I think a good tactical shotgun ,would be a short barrel , something thats easy to haul around in a hurry , now pesronally for self defense I have an 870 defender , have had it for years , be careful with the grips , I know it "looks"
cool , but think about the energy thats gonna come back to you , remember how it feels on your shoulder , thats gonna hit your hand!

Personally I love the side by side ,thats tactical to me! If someone come to the house and I cant take him down with two shots I deserve to take a round!

 

[pioneer461]

Any prosecutor could try that in front of a jury, but in order to charge you with murder, several elements of law must be met. I have never seen a case where the type of firearm was an element of murder, as long as the gun meets legal requirements. Tactical is an overused term to describe colors and gadgets.

Generally, murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Malice can be expressed or implied. Implied malice is proved by acts that involve reckless indifference to human life or in a death that occurs during the commission of certain felonies (the felony murder rule). Felony murder means when two master criminals hold up the local stop and rob and someone gets killed. In those cases, the get-away driver who didn't even go inside the store is just as guilty as those who did. I've seen cases where two knuckleheads fleeing from police and engage them in a gunfight. The police kill the shooter and charge the other bad guy with felony murder, although the other guy never fired a shot.

The exact terms of the felony murder vary tremendously from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Check your state's laws.

That's why, in any and all cases of a self defense shooting, you must get an attorney who specializes in use of force law. Don't rely on your cousin's neighbor's attorney, who got him a good deal in a divorce.

 

[Sam1911]

Any prosecutor could try that in front of a jury, but in order to charge you with murder, several elements of law must be met. I have never seen a case where the type of firearm was an element of murder, as long as the gun meets legal requirements.

Right, but this isn't really a question of what crime you might be charged with. Rather the question is, IF you're charged with a crime (because your "good shoot" wasn't seen as "good" by the DA and Grand Jury) does the appearance of/style of the weapon you used influence a jury who will be deciding whether to believe you and whether to convict you?

Dr. Myer's study I linked above says that it actually can, with some predictable regularity.

Tactical is an overused term to describe colors and gadgets.

Indeed!

 

[mljdeckard]

We love to argue about this, whether trivial details about your gun or your ammo will get you prosecuted. There are legitimate cases, like the Fish case in AZ, who got convicted partially because he used a 10mm. (It was overturned.) The truth is, a prosecutor can make any detail look bad if he is trying to make a case when he doesn't really have any. If you use the same ammo as your local cops, you are a 'wanna be' cop. If you use something else, you are being irresponsible because smart people would use the same ammo cops use to minimize risk to the general public. And so on. They will spin it however they want to.

In order to be acquitted of homicide, you have to make it to the trial first.

I should also echo and emphasize that I regard such details as very petty, and if the DA is using things like this to smear you, his case must be pretty weak indeed.

 

[Balrog]

If the prosecutor is saying that, and your attorney is sitting on his hands, you need a new lawyer.

The fact that it has (hypothetically speaking) gone to trial, there is something else that has gone drastically wrong.

One day people here will learn the difference in the standards required in a civil versus a criminal lawsuit. Sadly, today is not that day.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Balrog, there are some states, mine being one of them, where a justifiable homicide CAN NOT EVER result in a civil suit by the victim or the family thereof. So, in Commy states, a justifiable homicide may end up in civil court, but thankfully, Michigan isn't one of them.