Tactics: Universally Applicable?

[Al Thompson]

Years ago, we were running a pretty intense live fire range (Army), when one of my super soldiers got a nasty cut on the head. He had a habit of tapping a new magazine on his helmet prior to seating said magazine in his M16. During the activity, his helmet fell off and he chose to drive on (good call) before getting back in uniform. When he went to reload his M16, he clocked himself in the head with the magazine so hard that he cut his scalp. What worked fine with one piece of gear, no worky so good with out it.

 

[Bobson]

Interesting. Guess there's a whole lot of truth to the "you'll fight like you train" thing.

 

[Ankeny]

Under stress, you will do exactly what you have ingrained the habit to do.

I am really sick and tired of the IPSC will get you killed mentality. There are hundreds of LEO and Military shooters who compete. Don't you think they can seperate a game from the real world?

When I practice alone with my IPSC blaster, my gun stays hot. When I practice with my various carry guns, my gun stays hot. When I shoot IPSC with other people we run a cold range for safety (practice or a match). After we shoot, the range officer will issue the command, "If you are finished, unload and show clear". At that point, I unload and show clear. To assert an IPSC shooter is at risk because he/she will automatically unload and holster an empty weapon after a gun fight is silly. There is absolutely nothing to substantiate such a claim.

Do you think I leave my house with an empty gun when I go to the grocery store then wait for the SHTF before I 'Load and Make Ready?"

 

[Jeff White]

I am really sick and tired of the IPSC will get you killed mentality.

You are entitled to your opinion. It's not shared by most of us who go into harms way and who train people to go into harms way, but it's your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Don't you think they can seperate a game from the real world?

It completely depends on how much time they spend training for the game and how much time they spend training to fight. People do what they have trained to do when they are under stress. People develop reflex actions to comply with range procedures. I remember when we started teaching officers to scan for additional targets before holstering on the range. After a few iterations, the head turned and the weapon moved, but were they seeing anything? No! Scanning for additional targets simply became a reflex move that they did before holstering. Many officers didn't engage a second target that popped up while scanning. They saw it, but they were already holstering before the brain registered it. The brain was conditioned that there wasn't another target to shoot and when we added one it caused all kinds of confusion.

To assert an IPSC shooter is at risk because he/she will automatically unload and holster an empty weapon after a gun fight is silly. There is absolutely nothing to substantiate such a claim.

I've seen it plenty of times on the range. People get used to working on a cold range and wanting to get ahead of the game they will automatically unload and clear. Put them on a hot range where they keep their weapons loaded the entire time and they will unload and clear until they realize that the rules are different. It's simply human nature for the mind to go on autopilot and perform tasks the same way it is used to performing them.

Do you think I leave my house with an empty gun when I go to the grocery store then wait for the SHTF before I 'Load and Make Ready?

I have no idea what you do. I will tell you that I went to work one day with an unloaded weapon. I normally keep it loaded, but I had grandchildren staying at the house so I unloaded it when I got home from from work. The next morning I was running a little late, strapped on my duty belt and went to work. I arrived at work and one of my sergeants observed the empty magwell and said: "Jeff, you're weapon is unloaded!" Sure enough after years of strapping the duty belt on knowing that my weapon was loaded and ready, I put it on with an empty weapon.

Your mind will go on autopilot when performing routine tasks. That's why pilots use written checklists and soldiers and police tactical team members use Pre Combat Inspections, to make sure everything is ready.

 

[JRH6856]

To assert an IPSC shooter is at risk because he/she will automatically unload and holster an empty weapon after a gun fight is silly. There is absolutely nothing to substantiate such a claim.

What I assert is that forming the wrong habits can be dangerous. So avoid forming the wrong habits and form the ones that are beneficial. If this is what you do, fine, but just because you have avoided forming bad habits doesn't mean that everyone will. And for those who might, being aware that it can happen is a good first step in avoiding it.

 

[Ankeny]

You are entitled to your opinion. It's not shared by most of us who go into harms way and who train people to go into harms way, but it's your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I have shot IPSC with GM shooters who are also full time LEOs and LEO trainers. I also shoot with a former Seal team member and a couple of guys that worked in the sandbox for years. Two of our regular monthly shooters are in charge of firearms training for their agency (one a state agency the other a municipality). Somehow or another those folks manage to participate in the shooting sports, then turn right around and clear a meth house the next day.

This thread is about transferring skill sets from the square range to the street. I am the first to admit that the "tactics" employed in the games are not the same as the strategy and tactics employed on the street. However, the gun manipulation skills learned and practiced in the games do add to the shooter's toolbox no matter what his/her endeavor. It's just a matter of picking the right tool for the job.

I am not saying shooting IPSC will prepare anyone for a gun fight. What I am saying is a squared away shooter can participate in the shooting sports without detracting from their self defense skill set. Apparently some of you disagree and that's fine. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I am not saying shooting IPSC will prepare anyone for a gun fight. What I am saying is a squared away shooter can participate in the shooting sports without detracting from their self defense skill set. Apparently some of you disagree and that's fine. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

And gang... Jim Cirillo was a PPC champion BEFORE he went to the NYPD stakeout squad (in fact he never fired his gun at anyone until he joined the stakeout squad.

Bill Jordan was a champion skeet shot.

Charlie Askins was a champion pistol shot (NRA).

Jellly Bryce competed in many matches.

Like Ankeny says, the skills learned in competition won't prepare you for a gun fight but they will give you technique training that you can use under stress.

Deaf

 

[strambo]

It is how you train. From Ankeny's post, he doesn't train bad habits into muscle memory. If only when he competes, he does the admin things, and only when told to do so (not reflexively), then it won't be an issue.

If you you always practice like an IPSC match, holstering an empty gun etc. and burn that into a reflexive act, then yes you would likely holster an empty weapon in combat.

If you practice a lot on your own, you can burn anything you want into a new neural pathway (muscle memory). If you just have a range with silly admin procedures and that is the only time you practice...your stuck with those bad habits.

 

[mbt2001]

Well, I would go so far to say that the principles of grip, deployment, sighted fire, etc are very helpful. That being said nothing can prepare someone for an actual encounter. For instance, there is a video in another thread of an off duty officer shooting an armed assailant. I seriously doubt that they taught him anything like that or that he practiced anything like that on any range, class, training hall, or living room.

Pilots DO learn to fly planes on simulators, that being said, simulators cannot take the place of actual flight training, but are certainly a safe and effective why to develop skills.

Practice, pray, perform....

 

[1911 guy]

Since this has devolved into a whizzing contest over "gun games" versus "real world", I will give my opinion, one that has been stated by others smarter than me.

Competition like IPSC is great training in gunhandling and marksmanship. The deficiency is not in IPSC, the deficiency lies in the shooter who thinks the tactics (not gunhandling and marksmanship, they remain constant) used to clear a stage in the best time possible are also the tactics that work best in the real world. However, knowing this allows a shooter to use IPSC as a tool to learn superior skills while availing themselves of resources to learn superior tactics.

Separate skill set from tactics and it becomes entirely possibly to enjoy shooting sports without muddying the waters.