Tactics: Universally Applicable?

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Bobson

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After reading a recent thread in this subforum, I got to thinking: in regards to training, are tactics universally applicable?

In other words, if a person has significant combat training, would that training be a major advantage if he entered the competitive shooting arena? Similarly, would a person who has excelled in competitive shooting have a much higher chance of success in combat than a shooter of "average" ability?

Are tactics, maneuvers, pistol manipulation techniques, etc, etc going to transfer well from one arena to the other (combat to competition, and vice versa). If some will, which are they?

The reason I ask is because it occurred to me that many schools seem to focus on use of a firearm in combat (whether SD, HD, or SHTF), rather than use of a firearm in competition. This perceived focus seems to suggest that tactics and skills do not cross over from one to the other very well. Also, it seems as though certain trainers with combat experience endorse certain techniques, while trainers with competition experience endorse other, conflicting techniques. It's reasonable that one is better than the other - unless skills do not cross over, and things that work well when shooting paper are not going to keep you alive in combat, and vice versa.
 
I think the mind sets are different. The famous speed shooter Ed McGivern was once asked if he would win a gun fight with some Old West gunfighter. He replied that he would lose, since the old timer was a killer, and he (McGivern) was not.

I will say that I think if a target shooter was able to change his thinking, he would probably be a formidable opponent in a gun fight. But the target shooter is used to playing by the rules, getting ready, etc. And most folks who have carried or used a gun in a tough situation will tell you that there are no rules and there is seldom any time to get ready.

Jim
 
Most tactics are universal in application.

Such as 'shoot them in the back' or 'silhouette them in the light' or 'hit first, hit hard, and keep hitting'.

Now there is a difference between technique and tactics.

My draw stroke, 'stance', and aiming method are techniques. My performing a fishhook to ambush them, stacking my opponents, or playing a come-along game are forms of tactics.

Tactics are usually universal, technique usually is not.

Deaf
 
A gunfight is about survival, if it's about anything. A competition is about scoring points and winning a ribbon or trophy. I've taken chances to win a competition that would get me killed in a gunfight. Incoming fire is a bitch. :eek:
 
What Deaf Smith said. Technique is gun handling and marksmanship. Tactics are driven by the situation. Tactics used within shooting sports differ, just as tactics used in armed conflict vary according to weaponry, situation and terrain, as well as numbers.
 
In other words, if a person has significant combat training, would that training be a major advantage if he entered the competitive shooting arena? Similarly, would a person who has excelled in competitive shooting have a much higher chance of success in combat than a shooter of "average" ability?

If the shooter with significant "combat training" sticks to his training they will do poorly in competition, as their training is not based on madly dashing through a stage laying waste to targets. Conversely a competition shooter who thinks they can pop out from cover and do an el pres on 3 subjects is probably going to be dead when they find out that bad guys don't always drop in two rounds.

"Tactics" in competitive shooting are one of three things:

-exploitation of the rules for an advantage for anyone who thinks of it
-exploitation of the rules to take advantage of something that benefits your personal shooting style/body type/etc.
-an exploitation of human nature

Tactics in the context of a gun fight are vastly different (well excepting the last one, that can be of use in a gunfight too).

Now I will say that familiarity with your firearm, smoothness in manipulation, confidence in your ability to shoot, etc. are all things that will benefit your greatly in a gun fight. All of things can be gained in competition. There are a ton of "tactics" in competition that are great for trophies and horrible for survival. Conversely most things that will get you through a gunfight are horrible for getting you to the trophy table.


-Jenrick
 
First you learn the mechanics of shooting, then you learn the skills to hit what you're aiming at... and so forth.

Tactics involves learning how to apply those basic skills... Seriously, for those that want to learn the skills that might allow you to survive a gunfight (or any serious attempt on your life....) the first book I'd recommend is Street Survival. Yes, it's pretty outdated today -but it was my bible back in the early eighties after I'd already killed a man on the street.... and learned how little I knew despite being a five year "veteran" cop...
 
"Tactics" in competitive shooting are one of three things:

-exploitation of the rules for an advantage for anyone who thinks of it
-exploitation of the rules to take advantage of something that benefits your personal shooting style/body type/etc.
-an exploitation of human nature
Yeah, that's part of the game for gamers. But in competition (USPSA) tactics are about maximizing your hit factor by shooting the course of fire in the most expedient and efficient manner within your abilities and skillset.
 
After reading a recent thread in this subforum, I got to thinking: in regards to training, are tactics universally applicable?
On the face of it, no. "Tactics" is the application of maneuver and action to achieve a goal, generally with force. By definition, by the very essence of it, the application will be different to achieve different ends.

To your question, the tactics required to complete a shooting match stage in the shortest amount of time with the most accuracy, and within the competition rules will be quite different from the tactics required to survive even a nominally similar encounter in real life.

In other words, if a person has significant combat training, would that training be a major advantage if he entered the competitive shooting arena?
Some of it would. The experience of rapidly deploying a weapon and making accurate hits could translate well. The decision of weather to advance or retreat, the degree to which one uses/hugs cover and concealment, management of ammo and equipment, "alternative strategies" to solve the present problem, and many other factors wouldn't translate well at all.

I occasionally shoot with a police trainer pal who usually takes three or four minutes to work through our shoot house. He's even pulled out a hand mirror to check a blind corner. We set a par time in that shoot house of usually 100 seconds, and that's to slow down the run-and-gun shooters who can "complete" it in 20 seconds. He wouldn't be very competitive. They might not live past the first corner.

Similarly, would a person who has excelled in competitive shooting have a much higher chance of success in combat than a shooter of "average" ability?
"In combat?" Like on a battlefield? Look, there's SOOOOooooo much else to know and have ingrained in your brain about fighting as a part of a unit on a battlefield that shooting skill as practiced in competition is really just a small part of that. Really, you might as well just say "no." (Thought the more accurate answer would be, "yes, of course, but other things are even more important.")

On "the street" in civilian America? Probably, could be, yes. You aren't dealing with unit tactics, comms, reaching objectives, artillery, RPGs, grenades, 100 lbs of gear, etc., etc. If it comes to drawing a gun, then you're very likely to have a simple, fast shooting scenario against one or two adversaries deploying simple and equivalent weapons to your own.

Now there is still A WHOLE LOT about defensive thinking and practice that is outside the realm of shooting skills, (situational awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, escape, verbal/social skills, good planning) and all that stuff is still way more important to keeping you alive, but gun-fighting skill may still be what brings your butt home at the end of the day.

Are tactics, maneuvers, pistol manipulation techniques, etc, etc going to transfer well from one arena to the other (combat to competition, and vice versa). If some will, which are they?
Tactics? Again, I think tactics are way outside the scope of (almost) any competition I've ever heard of. Tactics for "combat" might be anything from maneuvering several units to create enfilading fire and outflank an enemy, to identifying pinch/ambush points on the street, or good practices when approaching your parked car so you don't get jumped unexpectedly. Competition is pretty much a shooting problem, and shooting is what comes after the tactics.

Pistol/weapon manipulations? Of course! This is the advanced basic stuff. ;) The sort of COMPETENCY practice you have to have down pat just to accomplish something with your firearm. The list might look something like this:

1. Work from a holster
2. Shoot while moving
3. Shoot multiple targets (and shoot them while moving)
4. Shoot from concealment
5. Shoot at targets that partially concealed
6. Low-light shooting
7. Shooting a threat multiple times rapidly
8. Reloading

Whether you're going into combat, or you're going into (practical types of) competition, you need to have these things well-worn into your skillset. Beyond that, things diverge pretty widely.

The reason I ask is because it occurred to me that many schools seem to focus on use of a firearm in combat (whether SD, HD, or SHTF), rather than use of a firearm in competition. This perceived focus seems to suggest that tactics and skills do not cross over from one to the other very well.
That's why you need to make sure you understand what kind of training you're signing up for. Basic competency/safety? Defensive shooting? Extreme close-quarters fighting like southnarc teaches? Holistic defensive training, including legal factors? Competition? Literal COMBAT infantry training? "Advanced"/specialized training of some sort (entry team, precision rifle, aerial work)? Etc.

Do you go to a sushi chef to learn to grill a mean steak? Can a NASCAR driver teach you to be a better cabbie or bus driver?

Also, it seems as though certain trainers with combat experience endorse certain techniques, while trainers with competition experience endorse other, conflicting techniques.
Of course. Their experiences are different. Their skill sets overlap but are not the same. What they are teaching is pretty different, unless you're in a basic class and they're just trying to get you to holster without shooting your leg.

It's reasonable that one is better than the other - unless skills do not cross over, and things that work well when shooting paper are not going to keep you alive in combat, and vice versa.
Better? You have to define your goals.

If your goal is winning USPSA competition, then almost nothing that someone like Tom Givens will teach you about surviving a violent encounter is going to do anything but slow you down.

If your desire is to learn street survival, going to take a class from Rob Leatham is certainly not at all what you need.
 
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There's a running joke in IDPA circles that the perfect stage would have a stage description that read something like,

"...at the signal, the shooter will retreat from P1, keeping an eye on T1-T6 until reaching cover. Continue the retreat out of the shooting area, get in your car and drive. Dial 911 from a safe distance, give your location and the location of the altercation, and describe T1-T6 to the dispatcher with as much detail as possible. ..."

THAT's tactics. Makes for a lousy match, though, and a big traffic jam in the parking lot. :D
 
The value of combat competition vs. real life shootings is debatable, largely because what one is likely to encounter doesn’t necessarily translate into something that makes a good stage in a game. The kind of shooting skills required to be a top competitor are predictable to the degree that the various stages in the games often follow a general pattern.

The link below is from a security camera in a filling station, and what you see is an actual shooting with a fatal result. It is over in a few seconds. Watch it several times and notice that the shooter – an off-duty police officer, apparently doesn’t employ the usual techniques that are common in competition, largely because he didn’t have the time or opportunity to do so. This however does not mean that competition in combat games has no value, as the situations that occur in reality will not always fit a preconceived strategy. For this reason competitive skills may or may not be valuable.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f6e_1392219642
 
In WW1 Herbert McBride, an American who joined the Canadian Expeditionary Force and went to war, wrote several books after the war ('A Rifleman Went to War' is one of them.)

Now he was both a machine-gunner and sniper. He wrote they did find out that pop-up targets, short time limits, movement, etc... training was VERY RELEVANT to combat.

Then in WW2, Lt. John George was at both Guadalcanal and in Burma with the 5307th and he wrote a book, "Shots Fired in Anger' about it.
In his book he also wrote about making ranges where you had pop-up targets along jungle trails, moment tactics, short time periods, etc... not at all unlike IDPA.

Even the Special Forces now days use IPSC type exercises and targets (and swingers, twisters, movers, etc..) and you know these guys don't do that just for fun.

Yes such training (not IDPA itself but the training you do to compete in the matches) is very relevant. The matches themselves are TEST.
They test you to see how well you have trained and put some pressure on you.

Many a person has fallen apart in a IDPA/IPSC match cause the match pressure was to much and they had 'brain fade' or fumbled or got confused or did bad tactics.

Now if they had such in just a match one wonders what they would do in a real shooting war.

So yes, if you can, join a IDPA club and do alot of practice BEFORE the matches. And the practice you do should be relevant to self defense.

Then take the 'test', match that is, to see if you have progressed.

Deaf
 
Deaf, I agree, and have written some other things on that subject.

I'm waiting to see how the OP responds though, because I'm reading his opening post as a question more about trainers/classes/schools than about competition itself.

There is a lot to say about complicated and misused maxim that "competition is not defensive training", but I don't know if the OP meant to have that discussion or a more specific one about seeking instruction.
 
Skills, such as trigger control, sight alignment, follow through, cross over.

However, tactics, are completely different for combat (basically outward directed) versus competition (mostly inner directed).
 
I'm waiting to see how the OP responds though, because I'm reading his opening post as a question more about trainers/classes/schools than about competition itself.
Sorry to keep you waiting. The last couple days have been hectic and I've just now revisited this thread. I really just posted the question out of sheer curiosity, and not because I am expecting to become seriously involved in competition any time soon, or involved in combat on any level. Also, for clarity, I've never attended or participated in any formal firearm competition, and aside from some very brief, mediocre "training" in the Air Force, I've never been in combat or anything resembling it. Closest thing to either was serious involvement in competitive paintball for several years, which obviously isn't at all close to either combat or USPSA/IDPA.

Frankly, I've found this thread to be much more useful than my own thread (this current one) as far as this topic is concerned; but I definitely appreciate the responses, especially Post #9, which served as the basis for the aforementioned/linked thread.

As far as the list of competencies to work on, I have some experience practicing two of those things (holster work and reloading) - and not a single of the others. And frankly, my holster work and reloading will both benefit from more practice. I guess I'm starting at the bottom. :p
 
If your desire is to learn street survival, going to take a class from Rob Leatham is certainly not at all what you need.
Interestingly enough, Rob Leatham is still sought after to provide training to some of the most elite fighting forces/military/police on the planet. It's interesting to read some of Leatham's thoughts on the subject. He is the first to admit there are huge differences in mindset, strategy, tactics, and so forth. But the competition arena is still a good place to look for pure handgun manipulation skills. How those skills are applied is a different matter.
 
Interestingly enough, Rob Leatham is still sought after to provide training to some of the most elite fighting forces/military/police on the planet. It's interesting to read some of Leatham's thoughts on the subject. He is the first to admit there are huge differences in mindset, strategy, tactics, and so forth. But the competition arena is still a good place to look for pure handgun manipulation skills. How those skills are applied is a different matter.
With all due respect to Rob Leathan,

The militay and police use him to experiment at newer methods of shooting TECHNIQUE.

Not combat, or street survival.

Deaf
 
Competition is not training for combat. Training for competition is not training for combat. Can you learn and practice some skills that could be used in a fight? Yes. But the similarity ends there.

Even the combat simulators that are used in the military and law enforcement have to be tightly controlled in order for them to have any value as training for combat. Why? Because we don't actually shoot at each other with lethal ammunition in training.

Back in the 80s when we introduced MILES (Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System) training in the Army it was recognized that since the lasers weren't actually casualty producing and what was cover from the laser beam was only concealment for live ammunition that soldiers would quickly pick up on these differences and learn to do things they shouldn't do in a real firefight.

When you train for IDPA or IPSC or three gun matches, you are training to win a match under a certain set of circumstances. You are not training to fight.

Some of the manipulation and marksmanship skills transfer over but the tactics don't. The administrative range procedures used in these matches will also get you used to doing things you shouldn't do in a fight, like holstering an empty weapon.

The military and law enforcement hire top competitive shooters like Leatham to teach new and more efficient marksmanship and manipulation, not tactics.

There is nothing wrong with competition shooting and it will make you a better shooter. But you need to remember that being the top shot at your local IPSC match doesn't mean squat in a fight.
 
The militay and police use him to experiment at newer methods of shooting TECHNIQUE. Not combat, or street survival.
Yeah, I know, I think that's what I said.

Some of the manipulation and marksmanship skills transfer over but the tactics don't.
Yeah, I know that. I think that's what I said.

The administrative range procedures used in these matches will also get you used to doing things you shouldn't do in a fight, like holstering an empty weapon.
I don't believe that for even one second. Give me a break. Do you really think I would shoot a home invader, then unload and show clear, followed by holstering an empty pistol. :banghead:
 
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I don't believe that for even one second. Give me a break. Do you really think I would shot a home invader, then unload and show clear, fololwed by holstering an empty pistol.

I believe there is some documented reports of officers killed with empty brass in their pockets because they developed the habit of pocketing brass when reloading. If you let the routine procedures became habitual, you may do them without thinking in the wrong situation. But, of course, if you can avoid forming the habit it won't be a problem.
 
Years ago I was involved in assisting training California Highway Patrol officers. They relate a story of an officer killed when he poked his head up from behind cover. To place an empty speed loader on the hood of his car. Because he always placed them on a shelf at the range. Under stress, you will do exactly what you have ingrained the habit to do.
 
I believe there is some documented reports of officers killed with empty brass in their pockets because they developed the habit of pocketing brass when reloading.
That is a very popular belief and is even taught in many LE academies...it was taught in mine in 1979...but, it just didn't happen

Th famous event involved California Highway Patrol officers in the area of Newhall. I spoke with an Investigating Officer on the scene that evening and he confirmed that there was no empty cases in the dead officers' pockets
 
I don't believe that for even one second. Give me a break. Do you really think I would shot a home invader, then unload and show clear, fololwed by holstering an empty pistol.

Yes, I do. You will fight like you've trained. Do enough repetitions of finishing an engagement by clearing your weapon and holstering it, there is a good chance that you will subconsciously do just that in a fight.

Th famous event involved California Highway Patrol officers in the area of Newhall. I spoke with an Investigating Officer on the scene that evening and he confirmed that there was no empty cases in the dead officers' pockets

Someone has spent a lot of time spreading that story then. It was taught in my academy and virtually every officer survival course I've ever taken. Newhall is credited for being the start of the street survival movement.
 
I believed it for years too.

I talked to a P.O.S.T. (Peace Officers Standards & Training) manager, and he said it was so wide spread and made such a good example that they never corrected the story. My understanding is that they checked with the surviving family members first, as it reflected badly on their family member, and they all agreed that if it helped in saving officers lives they would let it continue.

I read about it in a magazine first, I'm thinking it might have been in an article by Mas Ayoob
 
I do know that I worked with an officer who had the bad habit of returning his speedloaders to their holders on his belt after each reload. During speed drills at the range, he still did it, even though it slowed him down considerably. Fortunately, he never had to do "for real" (that I know of.)
 
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