Taking a bite out of the Second Amendment

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Preacherman

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From the Salt Lake Tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_2545188):

Article Last Updated: 01/30/2005 08:42:50 AM

Taking a big biteout of the Second Amendment

By Saul Cornell
History News Service

The struggle over ownership of guns in the United States has taken a dramatic turn. In the midst of the winter holidays, when you could bet that everyone's mind was elsewhere, the Department of Justice decided to revise the Second Amendment.

This latest example of politically motivated historical revisionism completes the task begun by John Ashcroft in 2001 in his infamous letter to the National Rifle Association, which cast aside a hundred years of Justice Department policy on how to interpret the Second Amendment. Now the Department of Justice has produced a hundred-page memo designed to give activist judges a historical pretext for striking down existing gun laws.

Ironically, rewriting the Bill of Rights has been pawned off as nothing more than a return to the original understanding of the amendment. Yet this revisionist interpretation has nothing to do with the original understanding of the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment adopted more than 200 years ago reads: ''A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'' The department's newly revised Second Amendment reads, in effect: The right of individuals to keep and carry guns shall not be infringed.

The Department of Justice has thus erased the preamble, which states the purpose of the amendment, to create a ''well regulated Militia.'' The new version of the amendment goes well beyond the idea of interpreting the Constitution as a living document that must respond to changing times. In effect, Justice believes that it can simply expunge language that it finds inconvenient and substitute language more ideologically suitable in its place.

The department's novel idea that the preamble of the Second Amendment has no binding force would have certainly shocked the Founders. The most popular legal dictionary used by the Framers of the Second Amendment describes the purpose of ''The Preamble of a Statute'' as providing the ''Key to the Knowledge of it'' since it establishes ''the Intent of the Makers of the Act.''

Another bizarre claim made by Second Amendment revisionists is that the Framers of the amendment thought that bearing a gun and bearing arms were legally synonymous: hunting bears becomes the same as bearing arms. The illogic of the claim is easy to demonstrate. Quakers were religious pacifists opposed to war. Thus, a Quaker might bear a gun in pursuit of a deer, but he would never bear arms. To be conscientiously scrupulous about bearing a gun makes you a vegetarian, not a pacifist!

Although gun rights advocates have tried to claim that bearing arms did not have a military connotation at the time the Second Amendment was ratified in 1791, they have never been able to provide a body of evidence to support their claims. The only evidence they have produced is a single text written by the losing side in the original debate over the Constitution. Substituting the ideas of the losers for the winners turns history into a science-fiction fantasy, in which one might as well argue that the patriots lost the American Revolution, or the South won the Civil War.

For better or worse, the real Second Amendment links the right to bear arms with a well-regulated militia. If Americans want to change this language, it will have to be by the slow and uncertain process of amending the Constitution. Distorting the past for ideological reasons is unacceptable, in the cause of either gun rights or gun control.

Saul Cornell, a writer for the History News Service, is an associate professor of history and director of the Second Amendment Research Center at the John Glenn Institute at Ohio State University.
 
The most recent document by Ashcroft's team that I can find is this , which if the overview is to be believed states "The Second Amendment secures a right of individuals generally, not a right of States or a right restricted to persons serving in militias"
 
For someone who is an associate professor of history and director of a research center this guy show a pretty shaky understanding of history and little sign of doing much research into the origins of the 2nd Amendment.
 
For someone who is an associate professor of history and director of a research center this guy show a pretty shaky understanding of history and little sign of doing much research into the origins of the 2nd Amendment.

+1 - That is pretty scary coming from a 'history' professor.
 
Considering that there are now not one but TWO opinions from the AG's office as well as an exhaustive report prepared for Congress a few years ago, all meticulously researched and documented, and ALL agreeing that the RKBA is an individual right, this guy is way off base.

It also sounds like he didn't even read the AG's opinion, just went off the deep end when he saw the executive summary.

As for the 2nd Amendment being intended to CREATE militias? That notion is so far-fetched I sat slack-jawed in amazement when I read it. Even if one were to accept that the introductory phrase to the 2nd Amendment is integral to the intent rather than simply prefatory, it doesn't CREATE militias, it RECOGNIZES THE EXISTENCE of militias.
 
Many people on both sides of this issue have misinterpreted the AG's opinion. The only issue it addresses is the the individual right vs. collective right. This relates only to "the right of the people..." part. What both sides forget is that it said nothing about the "shall not be infringed" part. In other words, the rubber meets the road in the question of what restrictions can or cannot be placed on theis right. The antis would be happy for everyone to have this individual right, so long as it can be restricted into oblvion. Conversly, it does us no good to have this absolutly individual right if it can be restricted for any reason or no reason at all. A "collective" right is fine, too, if everyone is defined to be in the collective and it is otherwise unrestricted (and unrestrictable on a state or local level).

Ashcroft's letter to the NRA stated that this individual right was subject to reasonable regulation (like the AWB, .50 ban, no CCW, no open carry, no AP ammo, ammo taxes, licensing, registration, quantity limits, waiting periods, sporting purpose, etc.).
 
The "Second Amendment Research Center" is an anti-gun group funded by the Joyce Foundation. They became alarmed when a lot of recent scholarship by both left-leaning and right-leaning scholars on the subject showed the Second Amendment to be an individual right.

The Joyce Foundation established a grant in conjunction with the usual suspects to form the "Second Amendment Research Center". The true purpose of the center is to fund and promote "academic" research showing that peons must never own guns.

The author of this article is the director of that centerand a longtime gun control activist. Here is some of his past work:

University of Delaware Gun Control Conference
Teamed with now-exposed fraud Michael Bellesiles to challenge the Standard Model (individual rights) view of the Second Amendment in 1999
More
 
What really amazes me is the fact that “if†the Second Amendment “is not†an Individual Right as some suggest, then why do I “legally†have "firearms" in my gun vault to begin with? :confused:
 
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."

So, if the Second Amendment is a collective right, then the Fourth Amendment is as well, sine both say "the people". So, the Militia is protected against unreasonable search and seizure, but my individual house is fair game, right? :rolleyes:

And it wasn't even well written, especially from a professor!
 
I e-mailed the good doctor the following:

"Dear sir -
Your publicly displayed ignorance of the Bill of Rights in general, the Second Amendment in particular, and the writings of the Founding Fathers concerning arms and the public is so execrable that it not only exceeds the capacity of this missive to document - it should also constitute grounds for a refund from whatever diploma mill granted you a degree. Good luck on the refund.

Richard Young"
 
ok i need help with this = the part i find troubling ammo for anti gunners, and their favorite line is this=
" , the real Second Amendment links the right to bear arms with a well-regulated militia."

how do you define a "well-regulated" militia?
too many people define that as the police i think, or a group of trained soldiers of some sort.

i figure since right after that it says "the right of the People to KEep and Bear arms shall not be infringed" , well ,that's us.

but a lot of people get hung up on the first part.

any suggestions?
 
No need to debate - the militia is defined under law. All able-bodied man ( probably includes women by implication - can't discriminate) who are capable of bearing arms in the common defense and who are not either excused from so doing by religious beliefs against violence or are already a soldier or most other government officials, constitute the militia. It has two components - the "organized milita", which I believe referes to people who meet and drill regularly, and already have "units" to which they report, (similar to today's Reserve and National Guard, but different due to the details of who can call them up and appoint their officers...), and everybody else, in the "unorganized militia", (they must have had a peek at my rumpus room...) :)
 
The first part is what make the NFA, AWB and "sporting purpose" particularly unConstitutional. Militia arms are particularly (expressly) protected.
 
From the Cornell Law Library

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311 Prev | Next

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes


Release date: 2004-03-18

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
 
Although gun rights advocates have tried to claim that bearing arms did not have a military connotation at the time the Second Amendment was ratified in 1791, they have never been able to provide a body of evidence to support their claims.

Ummm....

I thought that most people agreed that it does have a military connotation.

My take, and the view that seems most logical:

'A well regulated militia, being the necessity of a free state,' - Why this amendment is being proposed

'the right of the people to keep and bear arms,' - the same people that have a 1st and 4th amendment rights, shall have the right to keep and bear arms

'shall not be infringed' - need I explain?

I don't know why that is hard to understand.

And I promise all anti's that if the US gets to be gun free, I will do my absolute best to ensure no one has the right to free speech, or to trials.
 
Oh, it HAS a military connection all right..as in "we don't trust standing armies or governments." You have to remember the 2nd was written by men who had just led a militia army against their own lawful government - and the spark that set it off was when the redcoats tried to confiscate lead and powder belonging to said militia!
 
TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311 Prev | Next

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes


Release date: 2004-03-18

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Has anyone bothered to inform these people that the National Guard wasn't chartered until the early 19th century, 1917 I believe.
 
Last edited:
Thorn

In addition to the legal definitions of militia above (all true by the way), it is also important to note to the knuckleheads that use the "well-regulated militia" arguement that in the late 18th century, to be well-regulated DID NOT mean to be subject to regulation or oversight, but rather it meant to be "well turned out or equipped".

I know I have a reference for that somewhere...need to dig it up.

TennTucker -- that would be the 20th century ;)
 
These guys are seriously revisionist.

Sorry, the pacifist Quaker going after a deer is still bearing an "arm" according to the founders. He's just promised, in accordence with his religious beliefs, not to use it on a person.

from www.dictionary.com:
A weapon, especially a firearm: troops bearing arms; ICBMs, bombs, and other nuclear arms.

www.webster.com:
1 a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : FIREARM b : a combat branch (as of an army) c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)

I like the webster definition better, given that it mentions offense or defense, and doesn't mention WMD, bombs, and missiles as "arms". How do I differentiate between a cooking knife and a dirk, a hammer and a flintlock? Well, in my view a arm is something that's primarily designed to be a weapon, to be able to cause harm to another living being in a non-controlled situation, which distingushes it from other tools in that their ability to harm humans comes down to the point that humans don't tend to deal well with getting hit by heavy blunt objects or poked with pointy things, or sliced by sharp edges.

This covers slaughterhouse tools, designed to cause harm to living beings, because they function in a more or less controlled enviroment. A guillotine is not an arm, since the situation where it's used is very much controlled. A hammer is designed to pound nails, the fact that it's also most effective on a skull is a side effect of efficiently putting nails into wood. Hunting a deer is not a controlled enviroment, so the tools used to make the kill are Arms. Whether that be by knife, spear, bow, musket, or rifle.
 
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