Tammy Bruce Nonsense

[Don Gwinn]

I don't really mind the original photo, but she's overreacting. OK, next issue, glad that's all solved!

I did actually get a little out-loud chuckle at her examples of other people with their fingers on the triggers. There's smoke coming out of John Wayne's gun, you know--I think he might have been ready to fire.

And Clint Eastwood and Jodie Foster and Kiefer Sutherland . . . . uh, those ARE people who promote terrible images of shooting and guns, not to mention not particularly liking gun owners.

 

[Jeff White]

Who said anything about deleteing threads?

I did. Just now. To make a point.

Pretty much. Verified unloaded = safe. More to the point, actually unloaded = safe. Unless someone throws it at you. That could hurt.

Well then we've settled the issue. It's ok to break any of the 4 rules as long as the violation is done in a safe manner for entertainment purposes, and since it's ok, we won't have anymore threads complaining about it on TV and in the movies. After all if it's ok, then it's not really anything to waste bandwidth over.

I'm just kidding of course. The point I'm trying to make is that we have had hundreds of threads here complaining about poor gun handling in Hollywood and on TV and how it makes us look to the public. But for some reason, when one of our own does it and then gets bent when it's pointed out to her, it's all good.

Jeff

 

[Thernlund]

It's ok to break any of the 4 rules as long as the violation is done in a safe manner...

Correct.

The point I'm trying to make is that we have had hundreds of threads here complaining about poor gun handling in Hollywood and on TV and how it makes us look to the public. But for some reason, when one of our own does it and then gets bent when it's pointed out to her, it's all good.

Hmph. I never complained about Hollywood gun handling. <shrug>


-T.

 

[Walkalong]

This is getting interesting.

 

[Golden Hound]

Oleg's models never have their fingers on the triggers if they are merely holding the gun (next to their heads) in a lackadaisical fashion.

I think this is the key here.

I'm going to have to come down on Jeff White's side, I'm afraid...Tammy Bruce is holding the gun as if it's a pencil or a cigarette or a toy or something else to be "fiddled with" just for the sake of having something in your hand. You just don't hold a gun that way, especially not with your finger on the trigger.

Even if Oleg's models have their fingers on the trigger while posing as if they are ready to fire, but not actually firing, there's a difference. His photos demonstrate proper gun handling technique - they're supposed to be taken at face value, as if they're actually real photos of people in emergency situations. That's why they're effective. The picture of Tammy Bruce is not like that. It demonstrates bad gun safety, that means it sets a bad example, first of all, and makes her look stupid, second of all. It's like, she's trying to seem like she knows all about guns and she's totally "with us" (and she may be on our side ideologically) but anyone trained properly with a gun would think, "she doesn't know what she's doing."

 

[siglite]

The thing is not a piece of jewelry. It should not be treated, nor promoted as such.

 

[XDKingslayer]

So by all this logic, we shouldn't be dry firing our weapons. There is no difference sitting at home pointing your weapon at your wife's vase or something else and pulling the trigger.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Thernlund:

OH, MY GOD!

The immortal Jeff Cooper breaking one of the four rules, for a posed photograph no less, just like the "evil cretin" Tammy Bruce!

God in Heaven Himself is threatened by this blatant violation of one of the "Four Commandments"! Off with their heads!

 

[Golden Hound]

Again, the big issue in my opinion is the way Tammy Bruce is idly handling the gun as if it were, like siglite said, a piece of jewelry. A gun shouldn't be treated as a prop, just something to have in your hand for the sake of having it in your hand, like a cigarette or a pen or a cell phone or whatever.

I do think the 4 rules can have exceptions - of course we need to dry fire our guns, etc...you can't just turn your brain off and act like a robot with a strict set of programming that will cause you to explode if one of them contradicts another. We have to be rational and have common sense.

With all that said, the posed photograph of Tammy Bruce is in no way equivalent to someone dry-firing their gun. The reason, is that the photograph is a form of media that carries emotional and intellectual influence with it. It affects everyone who sees it.

 

[Rugerlvr]

It's her combativeness that bugs me. If she'd just have said something like "Oh I know the 4 rules very well, and we were doing it that way strictly for the photo, and I personally checked to see that it was unloaded before holding it that way..." instead of coining a new label for the safety conscious "trigger nazis," then I might have been on her side.

Some people like to stir things up, and I'm betting she just likes the attention.

 

[Jeff White]

There is no difference sitting at home pointing your weapon at your wife's vase or something else and pulling the trigger.

There had better be a difference. If you don't get into the right mindset when you dry fire practice, it's only a matter of time before you have an ND. You should have a specific target that you set up before dry fire and take down after you are finished. It's not a good habit to unload, aim in on your wife's vase and practice trigger press and sight alignment. Sooner of later something will interrupt your practice, you will reload without consciously thinking about it and then you'll get back to dry fire practice and your wife's vase, the TV screen, the mirror at the end of the hallway (I know a guy who shot his mirror) whatever you normally use as a practice target is now destroyed. Dry fire practice is probably one of the activities you are most likely to be involved in when you have a negligent discharge.

People have been killed in force on force training that utilizes unloaded weapons because they have done things like loaded up when they went to lunch and forgot to unload and the trainers didn't conduct a check, when they started the afternoon session. Anytime you are training with unloaded weapons, you need to have good procedures in place so that the unloaded weapon stays unloaded throughout the training session. This includes dry fire practice at home.

Jeff

 

[SsevenN]

So by all this logic, we shouldn't be dry firing our weapons. There is no difference sitting at home pointing your weapon at your wife's vase or something else and pulling the trigger.

There is a big difference.

Dry fire practice at home, done in a safe manner demonstrates good gun handeling skills.

You aim, ready your trigger finger, then fire. That is HOW a gun is supposed to be used.

A pose of anybody relaxing and smiling to the camera holding a snubby upside their head with finger on the trigger demonstrates poor gun handeling skills. And to me personally, a lack of respect for what a firearm can do.

Example, what if the paper had a picture of the local PD "posing" for the camera after a big bust. Now assume they all had their sidearms drawn, down at their side, but with their fingers on the triggers.

Non-gunnies see this, this could effect an up-and-coming gun owner to start forming poor habits.

That is exactly what the picture in question does.

 

[TexasRifleman]

A pose of anybody relaxing and smiling to the camera holding a snubby upside their head with finger on the trigger demonstrates poor gun handeling skills. And to me personally, a lack of respect for what a firearm can do.

It's an inanimate object. Fear of inanimate objects is irrational.


Most importantly, there is NO way to tell if that is a real gun in the Tammy Bruce photo.

Bob Hamm does things that look a LOT more dangerous and damaging to safe gun handling than this photo, yet he's considered quite the "expert" and shooters flock to see the guy at SASS events. He doesn't use real guns but his "gun handling" would be considered extremely dangerous.

Do you worry about non-gunnies seeing him?

http://www.cowboyguntwirlingchamp.com/information.htm

 

[Thernlund]

Bob Hamm.




-T.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Or this one...... "Quick Cal" Elrich

Real gun by the way:

Please note trigger finger location in the second picture.

 

[Jeff White]

It's an inanimate object. Fear of inanimate objects is irrational.

I agree. It's when an untrained person gets his/her hands on an inanimate object and starts violating the basic rules for handling it that the trouble begins and bad things happen.

Say this was Chuck Schumer handling a firearm like that on his blog, how would you feel then? I imagine if the reaction at TFL to Al Gore's Vietnam picture where it appeared he was looking down the barrel of his M16 is any indication, we'd have one long thread of members making comments on his lack of gun handling skills and how it proves he is an asshat who doesn't know what he's talking about and the staff probably would have closed several duplicate threads.

But when it's one of our own, you guys are very quick to close ranks and justify her conduct. Sometimes all the hypocrisy in the air makes it hard to breath around here.....

Jeff

 

[TexasRifleman]

But when it's one of our own, you guys are very quick to close ranks and justify her conduct. Sometimes all the hypocrisy in the air makes it hard to breath around here.....

So you condemn the actions of "Quick Cal" Elrich with equal ferocity?

He is showing MUCH more dangerous gun handling.

Where's the outcry? He's using REAL guns and REAL ammo, and performs tricks with loaded weapons that include pointing the gun at his own body.

He's been around for ages, where are the threads condemning him?

Be honest here, those condemning Tammy Bruce here are condemning her politics as much as her gun handling.

I can't stand the woman but I just don't see any "damage" caused by a photograph any more than I see the pictures of Quick Cal there causing "damage" to gun owners.

I agree. It's when an untrained person gets his/her hands on an inanimate object and starts violating the basic rules for handling it that the trouble begins and bad things happen.

And how do you know that Tammy Bruce is untrained?

It would be a reasonable assumption, using your example, to believe that Chucky Schumer is untrained in firearms since he's made that pretty clear on more than one occasion. How do you know Tammy Bruce is untrained? She might very well be an extremely proficient and safe shooter.

Lots of assumptions being made here in order to condemn a photograph.

 

[Defensory]

Watch as Bob "The Living Legend" Munden fires a live round from his revolver, then gives it a twirl before holstering. He also speed draws and shoots his single action revolver by fanning the hammer with his hand. If you watch the slow motion on his speed draws, he's holding the gun pretty much SIDEWAYS when he fires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woILVt30QV8

Munden has done exhibitions for tens of thousands of people over a course of several decades. Lord knows how many thousands of impressionable youngsters (and adults) have been influenced by Bob's "dangerous" gun handling!

 

[Jeff White]

He's been around for ages, where are the threads condemning him?

Doesn't he claim that he has a special skill and acknowledge that his exhibition is dangerous and that people shouldn't try these things on their own?

I'd have no problem if MS Bruce had responded to the reader that pointed it out to her that she knew it was wrong and that it was a staged shot. But she didn't. She called him a trigger nazi, implying that she knew more about firearm safety then the people who developed the rules or that the rules didn't apply to her.

I also can't fathom why someone would want the public to look at a picture of her with a firearm in her hand and have everyone who saw it who knew anything about firearms think she didn't know basic gun safety.

Jeff

 

[Thernlund]

Be honest here, those condemning Tammy Bruce here are condemning her politics as much as her gun handling.

I think that alot of folks are unable to seperate the two. When people don't like someone, they'll tend to condemn on sheer principle.

It leaves a bad taste to defend someone who you don't like, and some people can't overcome it I think.


-T.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I also can't fathom why someone would want the public to look at a picture of her with a firearm in her hand and have everyone who saw it who knew anything about firearms think she didn't know basic gun safety.

Would you make that same assumption here? Why not?

If you didn't know who he was you'd be right to think he had NO idea how to handle a gun.

Wow! He's pointing a LOADED handgun AT HIS OWN BODY......

Whether he has a disclaimer or not doesn't change the fact that the photo shows VERY dangerous gun handling.

Why the pass for this guy?

I'd have no problem if MS Bruce had responded to the reader that pointed it out to her that she knew it was wrong and that it was a staged shot. But she didn't. She called him a trigger nazi, implying that she knew more about firearm safety then the people who developed the rules or that the rules didn't apply to her.

So it's as I said above, you're condemning her for her politics and attitude not the photo itself. The photo itself is exactly the same as the photo of Quick Cal, in fact the Quick Cal photo exhibits a MUCH more dangerous act than the one of Tammy Bruce but no one is saying a word about him.

 

[Jeff White]

I haven't got any idea what her politics are. I never heard of her before this thread. I do think that many are defending her because she is an attractive woman.

When you can point out one exhibition shooter who encourages the public to try what he does, in fact even saying to start with loaded pistols because the pain from being shot will be a good lesson for you, then you can make a valid comparison between that picture and an exhibition shooter. Till then, that dog don't hunt. Everyone knows that what exhibition shooters do is very dangerous and violates every safety rule in the book. However MS Bruce tries to portray herself as a responsible gun owner, with no special skills and then waves a revolver around like it came off the toy aisle at Wal-Mart.

Do you handle your firearms like that when you know they are unloaded? Or do you always handle them like you were on the range?

Jeff

 

[Defensory]

I have to admit that today my faith in mankind has now been completely destroyed.

Not only have I seen a photo of the immortal Jeff Cooper violating one of the four rules, but I just looked in my copy of Massad Ayoob's "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, 6th Edition". Therein I witnessed a posed photograph of the legendary Rex Applegate (now deceased), demonstrating his world famous point shooting technique with a Beretta 92, with his finger on the trigger.

It must be pointed out that Applegate was INSIDE a building where some sort of gun show or firearms trade show was being held. There are MANY people inside the building, and there's Rex Applegate posing for a photo with his finger on the trigger of a Beretta 92.

Is there a God in Heaven? I was SO sure there was, BEFORE I saw that photo of Rex Applegate!

 

[Justin]

This thread has gone beyond ridiculous.