I agree with ApacheCoTodd in post 123.
All this situational-awareness talk is drifting the thread; even the mods are getting drawn in.
All this situational-awareness talk is drifting the thread; even the mods are getting drawn in.
tell me about the 25 auto cartridge?
- Thread starter midland man
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LOL I guess any time someone proves you wrong they had to work hard to do it and they threw a fit too. It took me all of 5 seconds to prove your claim wrong that the Raven was a cheaper gun than your example piece. You told me to use a gun that was comparable in cost to the LCP. I proved to you that the Raven was just exactly that. It's not my fault the process of inflation escapes you. Yeah checking that web site was so hard. I have my receipt if you'd like to see it. The price of a new Raven in 1975 was actually cheaper than the price of a new LCP today. I'm sorry that I proved you wrong.
Wow. And I thought that only the 1911/Glock arguments could generate such emotion.
The .25 Auto is the little pistol that just wouldn't go away, despite the availability of bigger/better guns/cartridges. It offered people a gun that could be carried when they couldn't carry a gun. There were also a blue million Baby Brownings and Bauers produced in the good ol' days. Like the Model 10 and its predecessor...it was affordable...and it it had a solid market.
Also like the .38 Hand Ejector/Model 10...most of'em were bought and rarely fired...so a good number the examples still around are in excellent mechanical condition, assuming that they haven't been completely neglected. My uncle bought one on his discharge from the army in 1945. He still had it the last time I saw him in 1986 shortly before he died. He said: "I suppose it'll fire." His only other gun was a SXS double 16 gauge shotgun...which was likewise fired rarely, if ever. The shotgun was his house gun. The Baby Browning, he dropped into his pocket whenever he went to Bristol, Tennessee. He said that Bristol was "mean" and he carried it just in case. He didn't carry it anywhere else.
Enter the production of the cheap "Saturday Night Specials" chambered for the cartridge 3 decades or more ago. It was easier to get the cheaper pistols to function with the .25 as opposed to the .22 and there were few affordable pocket class pistols available for the .380 Auto cartridge. There was the Walther PPK...but its price took it out of the "Volkspistole" market.
Beretta gave us the nice little Model 25 et al...and the .25 Auto held on for another 25 years, and has only just started giving ground to the .380 pocket pistols like the Ruger LCP.
And it will still hang on because there are a lot of still functional Baby Brownings and Bauers out there. "A gun that can be carried when you can't carry a gun."
We who study tactics and training and caliber effectiveness are pretty much in the minority. Most people never think about such things, and...like my uncle...they're not really into guns. If they already have a .25 Auto or a Model 10, they can't justify spending the bucks for a "better" gun, even if they can afford it. They've got a gun. It makes them feel better. That's all they need, and truthfully, they are better protected than they are by not having a gun at all.
I bought a pristine Model 10 from a widowed lady whose husband bought it when they set up housekeeping in 1959. She said that...to the best of her knowledge...he never fired it, and as far as I could tell...that was an accurate assessment. A week later, she called me and told me that she'd found the "bullets" that he bought with the gun. It was a box of old Remington Peters 158 grain lead RN with 6 rounds missing. This is representative of about 90% of the gun-buying public. Or...as I once heard an old gun dealer note: "5% of the shooters are shootin' 95% of the ammo. The rest come in and buy a gun and a box of ammunition and I never see'em again."
One more little anecdote, and I'll leave ya'll to your fight.
Close to 40 years ago, a popular gun shop in Winston-Salem had a "regular" customer...an old man who came in just before deer season and bought 2 rounds of .30-30 ammunition. They even had a box marked with his name on it and only drew his ammo from that box. Year in and year out, he bought his two rounds and left. His story was told over and over. One year, I was present when he came in and I asked him why only two rounds.
He looked a little incredulous...like the answer should be obvious...and like nobody had ever asked him before.
"Well, I ain't got but two deer tags."
*chuckle*
"Henry, if you'd go ahead and buy the box, you wouldn't have to come down here every year."
He gave me a look that he probably reserved for small children who ask why grass is green or the sky blue.
"I'm 82 years old. If I buy all that ammunition, I might die before I get to use it. That's money wasted."
Henry remembered Black Friday 1929.
The .25 Auto is the little pistol that just wouldn't go away, despite the availability of bigger/better guns/cartridges. It offered people a gun that could be carried when they couldn't carry a gun. There were also a blue million Baby Brownings and Bauers produced in the good ol' days. Like the Model 10 and its predecessor...it was affordable...and it it had a solid market.
Also like the .38 Hand Ejector/Model 10...most of'em were bought and rarely fired...so a good number the examples still around are in excellent mechanical condition, assuming that they haven't been completely neglected. My uncle bought one on his discharge from the army in 1945. He still had it the last time I saw him in 1986 shortly before he died. He said: "I suppose it'll fire." His only other gun was a SXS double 16 gauge shotgun...which was likewise fired rarely, if ever. The shotgun was his house gun. The Baby Browning, he dropped into his pocket whenever he went to Bristol, Tennessee. He said that Bristol was "mean" and he carried it just in case. He didn't carry it anywhere else.
Enter the production of the cheap "Saturday Night Specials" chambered for the cartridge 3 decades or more ago. It was easier to get the cheaper pistols to function with the .25 as opposed to the .22 and there were few affordable pocket class pistols available for the .380 Auto cartridge. There was the Walther PPK...but its price took it out of the "Volkspistole" market.
Beretta gave us the nice little Model 25 et al...and the .25 Auto held on for another 25 years, and has only just started giving ground to the .380 pocket pistols like the Ruger LCP.
And it will still hang on because there are a lot of still functional Baby Brownings and Bauers out there. "A gun that can be carried when you can't carry a gun."
We who study tactics and training and caliber effectiveness are pretty much in the minority. Most people never think about such things, and...like my uncle...they're not really into guns. If they already have a .25 Auto or a Model 10, they can't justify spending the bucks for a "better" gun, even if they can afford it. They've got a gun. It makes them feel better. That's all they need, and truthfully, they are better protected than they are by not having a gun at all.
I bought a pristine Model 10 from a widowed lady whose husband bought it when they set up housekeeping in 1959. She said that...to the best of her knowledge...he never fired it, and as far as I could tell...that was an accurate assessment. A week later, she called me and told me that she'd found the "bullets" that he bought with the gun. It was a box of old Remington Peters 158 grain lead RN with 6 rounds missing. This is representative of about 90% of the gun-buying public. Or...as I once heard an old gun dealer note: "5% of the shooters are shootin' 95% of the ammo. The rest come in and buy a gun and a box of ammunition and I never see'em again."
One more little anecdote, and I'll leave ya'll to your fight.
Close to 40 years ago, a popular gun shop in Winston-Salem had a "regular" customer...an old man who came in just before deer season and bought 2 rounds of .30-30 ammunition. They even had a box marked with his name on it and only drew his ammo from that box. Year in and year out, he bought his two rounds and left. His story was told over and over. One year, I was present when he came in and I asked him why only two rounds.
He looked a little incredulous...like the answer should be obvious...and like nobody had ever asked him before.
"Well, I ain't got but two deer tags."
*chuckle*
"Henry, if you'd go ahead and buy the box, you wouldn't have to come down here every year."
He gave me a look that he probably reserved for small children who ask why grass is green or the sky blue.
"I'm 82 years old. If I buy all that ammunition, I might die before I get to use it. That's money wasted."
Henry remembered Black Friday 1929.
So old girl friend from decades back had a Baur .25 auto. Some old boy had given it to her as he was concerned about her bicycling to work and then home late at night. She felt secure enough going from the store to home only about two miles away just after 11pm down in West Palm.
She carried the gun in her hip pocket while on the bike but slipped it into a purse at work and dropped it I her locker. She used it as a night stand gun at home. Previous by friend had taken her shooting with it once. Not liking the idea of a cocked and loaded gun in her hip pocket she carried with an empty chamber but loaded mag.
One night on her regular route a man lept out from around a corner and knocked her from her bike in a dark area. He laughed and announced his intentions while advancing.
She said his mother was a dog (though not so politely) as she pulled the gun from her hip pocket and grasped the back of the slide to charge the gun.
The attacker disappeared into the night never to assault her again.
No shots, one stop.
This is why a .25 beats a sharp stick for most folks.
I thought it funny that she admitted that she never was able to pull the slide back that night and after he turned to run she was still trying to jerk that slide back.
Her last boy friend was apparently a moron that never taught her to carry the gun cocked but on an empty chamber. She marveled at how much easier it was for her to load the gun if it was already cocked when I showed her.
I must admit that soon there after she fell in love with a .38 SPL snubby (Charter Undercover actually) which she last I heard still has and I feel better about her having even if she is long gone from my life.
Still she had a .25 when she needed a gun and would not otherwise have had one, whether she ever got it loaded or not.
Yes, bad things could have happened, but they did not.
-kBob
She carried the gun in her hip pocket while on the bike but slipped it into a purse at work and dropped it I her locker. She used it as a night stand gun at home. Previous by friend had taken her shooting with it once. Not liking the idea of a cocked and loaded gun in her hip pocket she carried with an empty chamber but loaded mag.
One night on her regular route a man lept out from around a corner and knocked her from her bike in a dark area. He laughed and announced his intentions while advancing.
She said his mother was a dog (though not so politely) as she pulled the gun from her hip pocket and grasped the back of the slide to charge the gun.
The attacker disappeared into the night never to assault her again.
No shots, one stop.
This is why a .25 beats a sharp stick for most folks.
I thought it funny that she admitted that she never was able to pull the slide back that night and after he turned to run she was still trying to jerk that slide back.
Her last boy friend was apparently a moron that never taught her to carry the gun cocked but on an empty chamber. She marveled at how much easier it was for her to load the gun if it was already cocked when I showed her.
I must admit that soon there after she fell in love with a .38 SPL snubby (Charter Undercover actually) which she last I heard still has and I feel better about her having even if she is long gone from my life.
Still she had a .25 when she needed a gun and would not otherwise have had one, whether she ever got it loaded or not.
Yes, bad things could have happened, but they did not.
-kBob
How many of us still have that "whatever" that was our first gun? Why do we keep it? We have the money for better guns now, but that old thing just takes up space.
Many people look realistically at guns as a tool, not a quest for perfection. How many of us regularly practice with a hammer or a screwdriver? While I'm sure that this is sacrilege, the principle is the exact same thing.
How many of us regularly practice driving a stick-shift car today?
The small .25 ACP pistols, and the ammunition to feed them, will be around for a long time, as the gun that you own is decidedly better than the gun that you "could have bought" when bad things happen.
If you think that this is a strange proposition, listen to the idiots argue against the use of seat belts.
All in all, it's a matter of perspective. If cops, who actually might have to use a gun, carry a .25 ACP as a last-ditch weapon, there might be a reason for them. At least for those people on the sharper end of the stick.
Our soldiers in Afghanistan often manage to carry tiny semi-autos hidden on them. They are forbidden by regulations, but are still there. Much less powerful than issue weapons, they still manage to save lives. Often, they are never used during the tour. However, the security that they offer, however small, is enough for the men and women carrying them.
Ever wonder why, to many "students" of the gun, there are minimums and maximums in guns for self-defense? Who decided upon them, and how? If the .380 is a minimum today, why? If the 9mm and .45 ACP are considered as fine concealed carry weapons, how about the .460 or .500 S&W? More powerful, flatter shooting, and capable of serious damage. Remember, to a dedicated gunner, these MAY be choices that they can control. For the recoil shy, or those with physical disabilities, the .38 Special, 9mm, .45 ACP, and maybe even the .380 ACP in a diminutive pistol feel to them like that .500 does to an average shooter.
The minimums and maximums aren't rules. They are guidelines, or suggestions.
Many people look realistically at guns as a tool, not a quest for perfection. How many of us regularly practice with a hammer or a screwdriver? While I'm sure that this is sacrilege, the principle is the exact same thing.
How many of us regularly practice driving a stick-shift car today?
The small .25 ACP pistols, and the ammunition to feed them, will be around for a long time, as the gun that you own is decidedly better than the gun that you "could have bought" when bad things happen.
If you think that this is a strange proposition, listen to the idiots argue against the use of seat belts.
All in all, it's a matter of perspective. If cops, who actually might have to use a gun, carry a .25 ACP as a last-ditch weapon, there might be a reason for them. At least for those people on the sharper end of the stick.
Our soldiers in Afghanistan often manage to carry tiny semi-autos hidden on them. They are forbidden by regulations, but are still there. Much less powerful than issue weapons, they still manage to save lives. Often, they are never used during the tour. However, the security that they offer, however small, is enough for the men and women carrying them.
Ever wonder why, to many "students" of the gun, there are minimums and maximums in guns for self-defense? Who decided upon them, and how? If the .380 is a minimum today, why? If the 9mm and .45 ACP are considered as fine concealed carry weapons, how about the .460 or .500 S&W? More powerful, flatter shooting, and capable of serious damage. Remember, to a dedicated gunner, these MAY be choices that they can control. For the recoil shy, or those with physical disabilities, the .38 Special, 9mm, .45 ACP, and maybe even the .380 ACP in a diminutive pistol feel to them like that .500 does to an average shooter.
The minimums and maximums aren't rules. They are guidelines, or suggestions.
Probably no one answer. Combine the findings of researchers in wounding effectiveness. ammunition testers, trainers, and competitive shooters, and you come up with general consensus.
Penetration, and maybe permanent wound channel.
Surely you wouldn't consider a .500 for concealed carry, but otherwise that's an excellent question.
Many of us, due to screen fiction or our experience shooting water jugs, confuse the boom and blast at the muzzle with wounding effectiveness, at first. We think, erroneously, of "energy dump." We are enamored by the idea of the "one shot stop."
But the researchers tell us that, no matter the blast, one expanded .357 bullet that destroys something vital is just as effective as any other comparable bullet that hits the same thing, regardless of the cartridge from which it is fired. They also tell us that if a bullet passes through without hitting anything vital, it will have no physiological stopping effectiveness at all, regardless of diameter.
Now we turn to trainers. From them, we learn that if the target is moving fast and his head is bobbing and weaving, traditional marksmanship per se won't help us. We will likely have to shoot more than one shot--two, three, or four or more--to have much chance of hitting anything vital. And that's true whether we are shooting something with a bullet diameter of .356 or one with a diameter of .457.
Regardless of how seasoned a shooter may be at handling recoil, he will not be able to land multiple hits with 0.2 second split times as well with a Scandium .357 Magnum or a 4" .454 Casull anywhere near as effectively as he would with a 9MM Glock.
And then there are the issues of over penetration and excessive noise.
Paraphrasing what Frank Ettin and others have said, penetration is critical, but you can only benefit from so much; more holes are better than fewer, and both magazine capacity and recoil will count on that point; and all other things being equal, bigger holes are better than smaller ones.
I hope that addresses the question.
kleanbore said:
Deep thoughts there. Do you believe that they only apply to the .357? Would it be possible to replace ".357" in your quote with .380, or maybe .32, or GASP! HORRORS! possibly even .25 or .22?
cee zee said:
cee zee said:
Takes me back awhile. The good old days!
You seem to be confusing the price you paid with the actual value of your gun at the time. You overpaid for a cheap gun 39 years ago. Not a valid price point to use for a comparison. Earliest MSRP I could find on your Raven was $50 in 1979.
An example you may be able to understand: You over-pay for a new High-Point today, buying it for $500. 39 years from now you come back on THR applying an inflation calculator to the $500 on your High-Point receipt claiming that was it's real value as a comparison point in 2014. Nope, never was, never will be.
Just because you overpaid for it in the example above doesn't mean that the High-Point commonly sold for $500 today, just like your $75 receipt doesn't prove the common price of a Raven 39 years ago in 1975.
I actually remember 1975 pretty well. It was the year I bought my first handgun, a Colt 1911 in .38 Super. Still have the receipt, paid $125, MSRP was apparently $149.50. Ravens were everywhere for less than $50. There was only one S&W Model 29 around, it was $300 (MSRP was $228 - thanks Dirty Harry!). There was a 44 Automag right next to it for the same price. I was making $311/month at the time.
No Ravens in the 1975 Gun Digest, but the Bauer is there with a list price of $79.95. In those days the "Saturday Night Specials" like the Raven were considered too cheap to be in a real gun catalog!
And here's the old .38 Super. A little tiny bit of muzzle wear, but other than that still looking good:
Have to go to the 1979 Gun Digest to find a Raven. Raven MSRP is $49.95 in 1979, Bauer has gone up to $99.95 in those 4 years. Inflation was averaging about 8% per year, home mortgage rates by the end of 1979 were about 13%.
MSRP of the Raven is almost exactly 50% of a Bauer ($49.95 vs $99.95). Now all we need to do is decide which one is most comparable to an LCP.
Let's use your own inflation calculator. Just as a check, the Bauer price of $99.95 in 1979 corresponds to an inflation adjusted price of $73.94 in 1975. 1975 MSRP was actually $79.95, so using the inflation calculator we're pretty close, less than 8% off.
Now let's do the same with the 1979 $49.95 Raven ($50 MSRP in 1979, you paid $75 in 1975?). Using the inflation calculator, a Raven that was $49.95 in 1979 would be $36.95 in 1975. Using your own inflation calculator, it appears that you paid approximately twice what Ravens were typically selling for, just like I remember. Possibly I'm not senile yet!
Since the first year that I have documented MSRP's for both guns is 1979, let's use those with the inflation calculator:
$100 Bauer in 1979 would be $316 today.
$50 Raven in 1979 would be $158 today.
How much is an LCP today?
MSRP is $379, Bud's sell them for $302.
Looks like it comes down to whether you believe that $75 for a Raven in 1975 is a valid price. I don't believe that it is, no matter how much cee-zee over-paid for his.
Draw your own conclusions on which is most comparable.
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Of course not. By the way, that does not refer to "the" .357, but to a bullet diameter of .356 or .357 inch.
Of course, the extent to which the bullet expands may have some influence.
Of course. One could also substitute .457. As long as the expanded bullet is the same diameter, the penetration is the same, and the same parts of the anatomy are damaged in the same way.
By the way, the bullet diameter of the .380 ACP, or 9MM Kurtz, is .356 or .357 inch. It is possible that a well-placed hit with a .380 will do as well as one with a 9MM Parabellum, but the latter is likely to penetrate more and may expand more. That is the reason that some people distrust the .380.
45 auto, I hope you don't think I read all that stuff. You lost me when you said I "overpaid" for my Raven. That was the price. I have the proof. Even if I had paid $50, which some people did early on, it would still have been about the same price as a LCP is today. I don't know where you're going with all this but it's boring and I'm probably not the only one that thinks so. I just don't care to be honest.
The Raven wasn't my first gun but it was the first one I bought. I haven't sold it because it isn't worth a hoot to anyone including me. I just haven't thrown it away. It makes a decent paper weight I guess. It's heavy enough.
BTW some of us don't need to practice with a hammer or a stick shift. They don't require the same kind of precision that shooting a pistol does. Maybe it's because I grew up with a hammer in my hand (dad built houses using his slave labor force - me and my brothers ) and maybe it's because stick shift cars were common at the time and they're still a lot of fun. But they just don't require practice at least not for many from my generation. A person can always get better at shooting though.
JR47 said:
The Raven wasn't my first gun but it was the first one I bought. I haven't sold it because it isn't worth a hoot to anyone including me. I just haven't thrown it away. It makes a decent paper weight I guess. It's heavy enough.
BTW some of us don't need to practice with a hammer or a stick shift. They don't require the same kind of precision that shooting a pistol does. Maybe it's because I grew up with a hammer in my hand (dad built houses using his slave labor force - me and my brothers
) and maybe it's because stick shift cars were common at the time and they're still a lot of fun. But they just don't require practice at least not for many from my generation. A person can always get better at shooting though.
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ThomasT
Member
This is a fun thread. Its sorta lost its direction but thats OK. All the other information and pointless arguments are fun too.
I have a Beretta 950 that I sometimes carry. Mainly on walks around the neighborhood because it works so well in loose shorts and doesn't give itself away. I really don't need it. This is a safe area I live in. I see young women jogging at night all the time. No one gets bothered. So far.
My dad had an account at a gas station close to his machine shop back in the early 70s. The owner looked out of a one way mirror one day and saw a "customer" reach over the counter and grab his cash box. He stepped out and ordered the thief to set the box on the floor. He did and came up with a knife in his hand and made a charge. Bob the owner emptied a 25 auto into the thief. He made about 10 feet and dropped dead.
Bob went before the grand jury and was No Billed. It was ruled a justified shooting. On the way home Bob stopped and bought a 357 revolver. His gas station closed down not long after that. A couple of years later he opened a used car lot and got to use the 357 on a robber.
The car lot is long gone and I assume Bob is most likely dead now. He was the same age as my dad who is 10 yeas gone.
I guess his buying a 357 after the 25 auto worked tells the tale. I bet he still had that 25 tucked away in his pocket though.
I have a Beretta 950 that I sometimes carry. Mainly on walks around the neighborhood because it works so well in loose shorts and doesn't give itself away. I really don't need it. This is a safe area I live in. I see young women jogging at night all the time. No one gets bothered. So far.
My dad had an account at a gas station close to his machine shop back in the early 70s. The owner looked out of a one way mirror one day and saw a "customer" reach over the counter and grab his cash box. He stepped out and ordered the thief to set the box on the floor. He did and came up with a knife in his hand and made a charge. Bob the owner emptied a 25 auto into the thief. He made about 10 feet and dropped dead.
Bob went before the grand jury and was No Billed. It was ruled a justified shooting. On the way home Bob stopped and bought a 357 revolver. His gas station closed down not long after that. A couple of years later he opened a used car lot and got to use the 357 on a robber.
The car lot is long gone and I assume Bob is most likely dead now. He was the same age as my dad who is 10 yeas gone.
I guess his buying a 357 after the 25 auto worked tells the tale. I bet he still had that 25 tucked away in his pocket though.
Like the larger Colt Pocket models the '03 and '08 I would love to have one of the little .25's. I've seen a few at the range that are ancient and still serving their original purpose. Some don't look so good. But they work. Would I (and do) rather have something more powerful? Of course.
But the best gun is the one you have on you. Years ago when I did private security work they told us 85% of the time just producing a gun, any gun, usually changed the persons mind. I found that to be true. Whenever I had to produce a weapon they usually had a sudden change of heart. So to me those would count as "stops".
Yeah bigger would be better. But even a .25 caliber pellet going through ones heart or brain is going to be an unpleasant experience to say the least. And again they are a neat piece of history and just fun.
But the best gun is the one you have on you. Years ago when I did private security work they told us 85% of the time just producing a gun, any gun, usually changed the persons mind. I found that to be true. Whenever I had to produce a weapon they usually had a sudden change of heart. So to me those would count as "stops".
Yeah bigger would be better. But even a .25 caliber pellet going through ones heart or brain is going to be an unpleasant experience to say the least. And again they are a neat piece of history and just fun.
cee zee said:
I salute you sir! This has got to be the most truthful self appraisal that I've EVER seen anyone post on this forum!
(Got to love those Freudian slips!)
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kleanbore said:
Well I will be gosh darned. It appears that Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Sierra, etc, etc, have just been doing it all wrong all these years selling us those danged .355 9mm Kurtz (.380 ACP)! Do you think that if I dig up those thousands of jacketed .355 diameter bullets that I've shot over the last few decades I could send them to Midway and get a credit for that .001/.002 that they ripped me off (according to you, anyway ...).
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?usersearchquery=bullets&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=20540
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.45_auto,
Your research lines up with mine. I also have old Gun Digests, Shooter's Bibles, etc. I found the Raven in 1980 having an approximate retail price of $55.95 and a Colt Government Series 70 with an approximate retail price of $277. Of course most of us remember you could get both for less than that. I am of the opinion that our THR comrade CeeZee got taken when he paid $75 for a Raven back in the 1970s. For anyone not seeing the real point of these prices: The Colt Government was certainly more gun for the money even at more than 4.5 times the price of a Raven.
Regarding .357 and .355 bullets: a .355 arriving in the heart at 800fps is better than a .357 arriving in the lung at 1200fps.
Your research lines up with mine. I also have old Gun Digests, Shooter's Bibles, etc. I found the Raven in 1980 having an approximate retail price of $55.95 and a Colt Government Series 70 with an approximate retail price of $277. Of course most of us remember you could get both for less than that. I am of the opinion that our THR comrade CeeZee got taken when he paid $75 for a Raven back in the 1970s. For anyone not seeing the real point of these prices: The Colt Government was certainly more gun for the money even at more than 4.5 times the price of a Raven.
Regarding .357 and .355 bullets: a .355 arriving in the heart at 800fps is better than a .357 arriving in the lung at 1200fps.
george burns
Member
I have had a few 25's over the years. They were used by many off duty cops who were either expected or had to carry off duty in the 50's thru the 70's. Most had the Bauer or Browning or colt. They were still considered a gun, that's about it.
Not much good for anything other than a belly gun.
Not much good for anything other than a belly gun.
Since this thread on the .25ACP cartridge has morphed into a discussion of the cartridge and the pistols that fire it; anyone remember or own a Norton TP-70? IIRC it was well functioning stainless steel DA auto with a good reputation?
The retail price went down between 1975 and 1980 just like the price has gone down on the LCP. Again I have a receipt. But why are people so interested in this? I'm not. It doesn't change the point that there are pistols that are small now that have much more power than the .25 pistols sold in the 1970's. And the gun doesn't matter one bit. It's the cartridge that went in them that made them anemic compared to the .380. That was my point. You can carry a gun the same size that has much more power now whether it's a SNS or a solid gold Colt. It we're talking .25 vs. .380 in the same size gun it makes no sense to carry the .25 unless you just can't afford to buy a better gun. 45 auto tried to make the case that I should have compared the more expensive guns of the past to the modern guns. That doesn't change one thing. The caliber is the problem. Not the quality of the pistol.
Cocked & Locked
Member
I'm guessing because some folks like to tell others they paid too much for something (even many years ago) then follow up with an I told you so ??
This thread has me set carry this little Colt to church tomorrow...along with something bigger of course.
Why would I like saying I paid too much? I didn't go out and spend a bunch of money on a mouse gun. Like I said before. I wanted a .357 at the time. I could have bought one for what some folks were paying for mouse guns.
OP
OP
I would love to have one of them colt baby 25's but anyway this has been a learning experience and I read everyone's posts here, you guys are great! so my question is the colt baby 25 is it the smallest 25 auto pistol made? or is there a smaller 25 auto made?? thanks guys!
QUOTE]But why are people so interested in this?[/QUOTE]
No need to wonder why or guess. Often taking notice of the incredibility of a trivial comment stimulates people to the credibility of major comments.
I'm guessing because some folks like to tell others they paid too much for something (even many years ago) then follow up with an I told you so ??
No need to wonder why or guess. Often taking notice of the incredibility of a trivial comment stimulates people to
the credibility of major comments.
Cocked & Locked
Member
Guess I didn't say it clearly. I was speaking of other folks liking to tell You that they think you payed too much. :banghead:
Think I'll just go to bed now.
There Are .25's, and Then There Are .25's
A Raven, Lorcin, and Phoenix are not Bauer, Browning, or Colt.
There are well made .25's, and then there are the other kinds.
A .25 is not a .380. Now with the plastic boys, you can get a .380 weighing less than an all steel .25. Lots of different perspectives possible. This could go on forever (almost).
If you carry a .25, make sure it is a good one, and you know how to use it.
I know that an elderly man killed an attempting carjacker with his .25, less than a mile from where I'm sitting. The .25 can kill, but I'd not like to depend on it alone, if I had a choice.
If I had to choose between a sharp stick and a .25, it'll be the .25.
If all I have available is a sharp stick, well..........
A Raven, Lorcin, and Phoenix are not Bauer, Browning, or Colt.
There are well made .25's, and then there are the other kinds.
A .25 is not a .380. Now with the plastic boys, you can get a .380 weighing less than an all steel .25. Lots of different perspectives possible. This could go on forever (almost).
If you carry a .25, make sure it is a good one, and you know how to use it.
I know that an elderly man killed an attempting carjacker with his .25, less than a mile from where I'm sitting. The .25 can kill, but I'd not like to depend on it alone, if I had a choice.
If I had to choose between a sharp stick and a .25, it'll be the .25.
If all I have available is a sharp stick, well..........
Sharp stick through the eye or throat to keep them back with judicious application of .25 caliber bullets at the same time. Use anything to gain an advantage.
- Status
