Tell me what you know about leading.

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Stationary Smell

Stationary Smell

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Intelligent individuals. Im fairly experienced at reloading but I've just started casting for 38 special and 9mm. Load build up for 38 special went swimmingly but as far as I understand, 38 Special is fairly easy to cast for because of lower case pressures. 9mm is where I've gotten hung up.

I originally bought 1 mold thinking I'd use it for both 9mm and 38 special, the Lee 358-125-rf. I quickly found that I have seat the bullet quite deep in order for the handgun to go into battery.

I started loading with titegroup but quickly understood their motto of "a little goes a long way" and found that even the smallest amount from my auto-disk powder measure produced leading. I read some threads stating similar results with titegroup so I decided to switch to Power Pistol because that's what I had on hand.

First of all, Power Pistol would be a slower burning powder? Causing less case pressure and reducing leading? This is how I understand things but it could be completely wrong.

I did find a load that shot well in my Walther p99c (no stovepipes and no leading? Could it be?) Which was 4 grains of power pistol and a COAL of 1.077.

I tried this in my Sig 2022 and got leading... I assume it has a tighter barrel, I haven't gotten a chance to slug it yet... Discouraged, I convinced myself that I different bullet profile (one "made" for 9mm) would be better. I cast some bullets with my new mold (Lee TL-356-124-2R), tumble lubed with Alox(the same as the last ones), and loaded them with the same amount of powder but with a COAL of 1.285. I shot them today and still have leading.

Sorry for the life story but I'm looking for advise. Should I change powders? Does anyone have a good starting load for either bullet and either powder that they have tried? Should I give up and powder coat them? My whole idea behind cast 9mm was to load it for as cheap as possible... and powder coating adds expense/time.

Thanks,
Stationary Smell
 
Here's what little I know. A friend of mine used to cast lead bullets for me made from wheel weights. With the cast wheel weight bullets I always had leading in my bore. No big deal. A few extra seconds with Chore Boy added to a cleaning session was all. Then he started buying lead that was made for bullets. When he started doing that the leading went away. And I have shot over 30K of his bullets with half of these being the wheel weight bullets.
 
First off I'd slug the bore and size .001-.002" over that. I have used Alox lube for years with great results. 9 mm is probably the hardest caliber to get good results with and gives more frustration that any other. It is a high pressure round and I don't think you will get great results with Power Pistol, that is better for jacketed at higher velocities.

If you can find some BE-86 or Unique, or something in that range you may have better luck.
 
Thanks for the replies so far guys, right now I'm casting my bullets from 100% wheel weights (no stick-ons though), no tin or lino type added. I had suspected that it could be related to powder, but that is one side of reloading that I don't quite understand yet, as far as burn rates and what properties work well for different bullet types

I can get some Unique, who makes BE-86?
 
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The Lee Manual has a good explanation about leading. Most leading is caused by either a too small bullet or too much pressure.

Too small bullets rattle down the bore leaving lead. While .356 for 9mm and .358 for 38/357 is pretty much standard you may find a larger diameter bullet will lead less.

Too much pressure causes leading by deformity the bullet's base. 38s are about 18,000 psi and 9mm 35,000 psi. Big difference in pressure. Keep in mind a higher velocity is not always higher pressure depending on which powder you're using. If you use a harder alloy you will get less leading to a point. The way to eliminate leading is use a gas check. I know guys that shoot gas check bullets well over 2000 fps with no leading. The gas check protects the base of the bullet. You can buy gas checked bullets but most of those I've seen are about the same price as jacketed.

If you want to reduce or eliminate lead you need to slug your bore and see what it is. Keep in mind this may only be applicable to one gun. You might have to load different diameter bullets for different guns. This can easily become impractical. You'd also need to ensure you're using a proper hardness of lead alloy and/or a gas check.

The real question is how much leading is acceptable to you. I'll give you some examples. I buy commercially cast lead bullets. For 38/357 I buy .358 diameter. No leading issues with 38 loads. I get light to moderate leading after shooting about 100 rds that doesn't effect accuracy depending on what gun I'm putting them through. Thats about all the lead bullets I'm shooting in 357 at one time. I always clean the guns after shooting. After 3 or 4 repetitions of solvent, let soak, brush, flush out the gunk and lead the bore is clean. Let the solvent do the work not the brush.

I buy .452 200 he swcs for 45 ACP. My standard load which I've used for maybe 40 years gives 950 fps. I get so light leading in the shallow groves of a 1911 after a few hundred rounds. It cleans up easily.

If you clean your guns regularly light to moderate leading shouldn't cause any problems.
 
I can offer a bit of help I think. Generally NONE of my 9mm pistols like lee tumble lube style bullets. You will probably need to cast them fat. Find out what will chamber in your pistol, and start there. Slug your barrel as well if you want a sure size of your bore. My 9mm likes a .358 conventional lube groove bullet, actually 3 of them do.

As far as powder, I have had the best luck with slower powders like Unique, so try something in that range. For lead, I am just using a mystery mix of wheel weight and scrap. They are pretty soft too fwiw.

Brase is a big one... Make sure you get the cases expanded enough for a .358 or .357 bullet. Chamfer on the mouth will help too. If the case mouths are not right, they will swage your bullet down and TADAAA leading. Lyman M dies work very well for this, and I suggest you snag one for whatever calibers you will be casting for.

I have never really needed any fancy lube for pistol. ALOX or powdercoating (dry tumble BB method) works just fine for me.
 
I cast and loaded for thirty years before working with 9MM. Tried molds from 124 to 152 grains. Various powders and lubes. After market barrels etc. I wanted to use my normal scrap lead and make USPSA minor power factor. Ended up experimenting with powder coating (shake and bake) have had great results in 9MM. Converted all my loads to PC. Guns stay cleaner, reloading dies and hands stay cleaner and no more cloud of smoke.
 
I've been for years casting bullets for 38/357, 44 and .45 caliber revolvers, .30 caliber rifles and a Colt 45 ACP. Just got a 9mm (SAR B6P) a month or so ago and started working with it, casting from a Lee 356-120 TC which drops 'em at 125 grs. So far I've fired almost 300 cast bullets through it. I have always cast everything from straight clip-on WW's and the 9mm is no different. I do water drop the 9mm bullets which typically raises the hardness to around 20Bhn.

My pistols barrel has a .355" groove diameter so I size .356. Initially I loaded 3.5 grs. of Clays which produced 1035 fps and enough leading to require cleaning after 50 rounds. Tried 4.0 grs. of Red Dot and leading decreased a little, velocity was 1050. Switched to Power Pistol, 4.8 grs. gave ~1050 fps and leading was decreased quite a bit, bumped up to 5.3 grs. and velocity went up to 1115 fps and leading was virtually the same and after 50 rounds could easily be brushed out.

So there's what I know so far. I may try an even slower burning powder.

35W
 
The guys at castboolits always say "fit is king". The first step is sizing the bullet to bore. Too big is okay if it chambers but too small will never work well. I'm no expert but I'd wager that powder has a lot less to do with it as long as you don't push them too hard. I like softer loads anyway, work up as needed but for pistol I usually keep at the lower end for practice. But, I've never had any leading with powder coated bullets sized over bore. I'm running full auto mag dumps of 150gr rifle loads at 1850fps and no leading. Also loading for the glock despite "not being able to cast for" reputation.

You can make a slug easily by using you bullet mold, cast a soft lead bullet and then whack it with a hammer to squish it, fattening it up a little so when you push it through it will obturate.
 
"...use it for both 9mm and 38 Special..." That'd be waaaay too easy. They use different bullet diameters and are not interchangeable. .38's is .357/.358" 9mm's is .355/.356".
However, leading isn't about diameters. It's about velocity. Trying to drive a cast bullet too fast is what does it. S'why you cannot use jacketed data for a cast bullet.
 
So I slugged the barrel of the gun I'm going to focus on casting for and measured .357. The majority of my bullets also measure out to be .357 will this be an issue?
 
Stationary Smell said:
So I slugged the barrel of the gun I'm going to focus on casting for and measured .357. The majority of my bullets also measure out to be .357 will this be an issue?
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I have shot 357 lead in a 357 bore and got quite a cleaning chore. I would load .358. You might try a cooling method that doesn't shrink the bullets quite to .357. I say that as one who knows only the basics of casting and metallurgy. My lead supply is Lyman #2 ingots.
 
Since you are wanting to use the same bullet for 38 spl & 9mm, I will suggest sizing the bullets for both rounds. Size the 9mm to .356 or .357, and the 38 cal. to .358. Sizing improves the bullet's concentricity, and the Lee sizing die is relatively low-cost. This way you can cast to .358 and have the proper size bullets for both rounds.
 
Here's what I know about casting 9mm.

It sucks.

I tried it for a little bit and every time I shot a magazine my pistol would look like a smoothbore. I know that a lot of guys have had success, but I didn't and am not going to put forth the effort to make it work when I can buy Berry's plated for $25.99 per 250.

That's my take anyway.
 
Jesse Heywood said:
Size the 9mm to .356 or .357, and the 38 cal. to .358. Sizing improves the bullet's concentricity, and the Lee sizing die is relatively low-cost. This way you can cast to .358 and have the proper size bullets for both rounds.
Click to expand...

If he sizes a bullet to .356 and shoots it in a pistol with a .357 bore, its going to lead like a big dog. That's probably what the problem is anyway.
Lead bullets need to be a bit larger than the bore to get a proper seal.

Another problem with the 9mm is that it is a tapered case, and when you run them through a crimp die with a lead bullet it will often swage the bullet down too small so even if you start with one of the correct size it won't be when it is finished.
To fix this, a lot of people buy the expander from a .38 S&W die because it flares the case mouth a little more than a 9mm sizing die does. Then they crimp just enough to remove the belling from the case.

Like I said, I just wasn't ready to go to all that trouble and with 9mm being inexpensive anyway, I buy factory ammo when its on sale or load plated.

Don't think I'm trying to talk you out of anything. If you don't mind tinkering a bit, I have no doubt you can make it work. Many do and I'm jealous of them. ;)
 
Sunray said:
"...use it for both 9mm and 38 Special..." That'd be waaaay too easy. They use different bullet diameters and are not interchangeable. .38's is .357/.358" 9mm's is .355/.356".
However, leading isn't about diameters. It's about velocity. Trying to drive a cast bullet too fast is what does it. S'why you cannot use jacketed data for a cast bullet.
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Leading is absolutely about diameters. And it's my understanding that jacketed load data isn't interchangeable with lead because it would create more pressure in lead due to the better obturation and less blow by that the lead bullets afford. But, I could be wrong.
 
Arkansas Paul said:
If he sizes a bullet to .356 and shoots it in a pistol with a .357 bore, its going to lead like a big dog. That's probably what the problem is anyway.
Lead bullets need to be a bit larger than the bore to get a proper seal.
Click to expand...
If you will take the time to read my post, I stated that to cast at .358. For the 38/357 size to .358, which makes the bullet more concentric. For the 9mm size to .356 or .357. NOWHERE DID I SAY TO SHOOT THE 356 BULLETS IN THE 357 BORE!
 
Sunray said:
"...use it for both 9mm and 38 Special..." That'd be waaaay too easy. They use different bullet diameters and are not interchangeable. .38's is .357/.358" 9mm's is .355/.356".
However, leading isn't about diameters. It's about velocity. Trying to drive a cast bullet too fast is what does it. S'why you cannot use jacketed data for a cast bullet.
Click to expand...
Simply incorrect. Fit is king. That said, either too fast or too slow can lead, but it is about "fit" (diameter), and alloy strength matched to the pressure and velocity. No, you can't drive a lead bullet to 2500 FPS in .357 or it would lead, but we won't be doing that at sane pressures.
 
Walkalong said:
Simply incorrect. Fit is king. That said, either too fast or too slow can lead, but it is about "fit" (diameter), and alloy strength matched to the pressure and velocity. No, you can't drive a lead bullet to 2500 FPS in .357 or it would lead, but we won't be doing that at sane pressures.
Click to expand...
I believe running a hard cast too slow is a problem too.
 
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