The 10 Commandments & Alabama

Status
Not open for further replies.
Christmas is retained as a federal holiday for secular reasons -- since so many federal workers are Christians, there would be virtually no staff anyway. It's more of a personnel-management acknowledgement of reality rather than a celebration.

Sounds like an "assault rifle" argument to me- completely arbitrary.

Christmas is a holiday for secular reasons? What does that mean- you do away with the holiday if you want employees to show up for work, you don't retain it so that everyone can take off.

To say that the federal government recognizes only a Christian holy day as important enough to close down the entire government, and then say that it is somehow not promoting that seems a bit disingenuous. And yet a statue containing the ten commandments, which is representative of a Judeo-Christian tradition-since there is no Judeo-Christian religion- is somehow supposed to be utterly offensive.

This reeks of hypocrisy just as the AWB does. Either have the courage to ban all religious symbology from the public square as secularists want, or admit that the 1st Amendment exists for one reason - to allow freedom of religion and to prevent the federal government from imposing one religion on the public.
 
To comment on the

hypothetical situation of korans or buddas or shivas placed in the building; Judge Moore was elected on his pledge to place the decalogue in the courthouse. If he had pledged to place some of the other aforementioned items, he would not have been elected to a position to do so. Also, most people are unaware of or ignore the fact that the monument also contains phrases from our history, spoken by patriots every day, that refer to God.
 
Last edited:
Commandeering public property to advance a specific religion is not "exercising religious freedom". When Judge Moore places a religious text from his belief system into the courthouse rotunda, he effectively declares that the judiciary of the State of Alabama specifically endorses and promotes Christianity.

As a private person, he has no right to place that monument in a public courthouse. As a civil servant, he doesn't have the right to do so either, because it is not within the scope and privileges of his office to tell anyone how many gods there are, or how to worship them, or what days to keep holy.
 
We kicked the Taliban out of Afghanistan; but they are still active in America, destroying symbols of religion. Remember what the Taliban did in March 2001?

http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200103/13/print20010313_64842.html


Taliban Destroys Buddhist Statues Despite International Intervention

UNESCO Director-general Koichiro Matsuura on Monday confirmed the final and down-to-earth demolition of Buddhist statues in central Afghanistan.

"The Taliban has never taken into consideration either unprecedented international mobilization or opposing voices from the highest authorities of the Islamic religion," said Matsuura.

He said the Buddhist statues in the country have been destroyed by hands, hammers or rocket fires and two of them, believed to be unique and tallest of their kind, are now nothing but ruins at the foot of the cliffs where they had stood for about a thousand years.

Both condemnation documents from all over the world and mediation trips from powerful organizations seemed in vain in the past two weeks.

Matsuura, head of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, started mobilizing the Islamic world since February 26 when Taliban ordered to smash what they called " idols insulting Islam".

He also sent Pierre Lafrance, former French ambassador to Pakistan and Iran and expert on Islamic issues, to Kabul to talk with Taliban leaders.
 
We kicked the Taliban out of Afghanistan; but they are still active in America, destroying symbols of religion.

The Taliban have more in common with Judge Moore than with the people removing the Decalogue from the public area of the courthouse (a far cry from dynamiting it, by the way.)

Both the Taliban and Judge Moore believe that their interpretation of their god's will overrules any worldly law, and that pious righteousness gives one all the authority one needs to advance the True Faith over all others.
 
i don't see the fuss...

I'm no lawyer and I didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night either...

But, doesn't everyone take an oath upon The Bible prior to testifying in the courthouse?

If so, then why does a monument displaying one of the legal exerpts from the legal document become such a big deal? I mean the whole bible is used in court....but a stone tablet depiciting an exerpt cannot be displayed within it's walls? It seems absurd to me.
 
07afgh-scene_7.jpg

The site of the Buddhist statues after they were "removed from public view".
 
How do we take "The High Road" when people on the other side of the issue mount an ad hominem attack of the lowest order -- comparing us to murderous terrorists like the taliban?

I guess we simply point out that their resorting to slander indicates that they have no logical argument.
 
I am not suggesting that any right be infringed. Moore = the state. The state has no rights; it has powers. This is a situation of a power being used unconstitutionally

The only the only thing defining a state power over reliogion is in the first amendment. To exercise a power, Moore would have had to make a law.
Since he didn't make a law, he was exercising his right as a citizen to freely exercise his religion. When the feds ordered the monument removed, THEY were exercising a power! And they used that power to infringe upon his right - a violation!

No matter how you twist and turn this, it all boils to a few words in the 1st. He either passed a law or he didn't. He exercised a right or he didn't.

Keith
 
Both the Taliban and Judge Moore believe that their interpretation of their god's will overrules any worldly law, and that pious righteousness gives one all the authority one needs to advance the True Faith over all others.

You're exaggerating the case beyond the scope of the argument - perhaps because you have no real argument! Moore has not said "God's will" overrides secular law, and until they start jailing people for making graven images and adultery, you'd do best to stick to the facts.

As mentioned earlier, we have Greek Gods and Goddesses stuck in public buildings all around the country and nobody gets their panties in a wad about that.
We have the declaration of independence in the rotary of the National Archives building and since this document is shot full of religious references it would be "unconstitutional" in the same way that Moore's rock is.
We pay a "Congressional Chaplain" to open every session of congress with a prayer as well as thousands of military chaplains.
Congress, the white house, and many of the monuments along the mall have various religious writings and icons displayed or incorporated into the buildings.

It's just plain silly to make out this case as "different" than all the tens of thousands of a other cases - and some of those situations (such as the congressional chaplain) are actual cases of "congress making a law"!


Keith
 
He either passed a law or he didn't.
Once again: Actions by government agents in their official capacities are "law" in the Anglo-American legal tradition. It was that way before the Constitution (since at least Blackstone). It was that way while it was being ratified. It's still that way.

Moore's action = law. He made a law.
He exercised a right or he didn't.
Once again: Government agents are deemed to be the state from a legal standpoint. It was that way before the Constitution (since at least Blackstone). It was that way while it was being ratified. It's still that way.

Moore = the state. The state cannot claim rights.
 
But, doesn't everyone take an oath upon The Bible prior to testifying in the courthouse?

Taking an oath on the Bible is not mandatory or essential to testifying. You can choose to affirm instead. Not even the President's Oath of Office requires them to swear on a Bible, although all of them have done so far.

Since he didn't make a law, he was exercising his right as a citizen to freely exercise his religion.

That is not an accurate view of the issue.

The citizens of Alabama have no right to commandeer public property to exercise their religion. Simply put, if Judge Moore, as a private citizen, has a right to place a 5,000-pound monument specific to his religion in the public courthouse rotunda, then every citizen of Alabama has a right to do the same. The Buddhists can bring in a 5,000-pound Buddha, the Muslims a 5,000-pound copy of the Koran, and so on.

Fact is that while every citizen of Alabama has the right to erect such a monument on their own property, and exercise their religion privately, none of them have a right to walk into the courthouse and claim the rotunda unilaterally for such a monument. It would be misappropriation of public property for a private purpose, namely the exercising of one's religion.

Judge Moore was acting in his function as the Chief Justice. As such, he used his office to advance his religion, thereby implying that the judiciary of the State of Alabama officially favors Christianity above all other faiths. Now, the good Justice has a right to his religious beliefs, but he has absolutely no right promoting his faith with public resources.

Judge Morre and his supporters have repeatedly stated publically that we were founded as a Christian nation, and that the purpose of the Decalogue in that courthouse was "to bring the nation closer to God again". It had nothing to do with private exercise of religion. it has always been about a public declaration of religious preference. "Alabama, and this courthouse, are meant to be Christian." How is that not pushing one faith above all others?

Personally, I recognize the historical place of the Ten Commandments, but I find it absurd to claim that "our laws derived from Biblical law". Our Bill of Rights is in most cases diametrically opposed to the Decalogue. Half the Decalogue deals with instructions for the worship of a specific god, and only the second half deals with inter-human relationships. Most of the "secular" commandments of the Decalogue are not unique to Christianity. The Code of Hammurabi, for example, lists many of the same "thou shalt nots", and predates the Decalogue by a millennium or so.

The Decalogue is a ten-point list of "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots", half of which are in direct conflict with the Constitution. The other half are general principles of human interaction that were codified long before Christianity. It is most definitely not the basis for our current law, and the only reason Judge Moore wants it in that rotunda is to pay homage to his specific deity. The whole point is that he has no right to use either his office or the courthouse for his private worship, and he doesn't have the right to speak for all Alabamans.

You're exaggerating the case beyond the scope of the argument - perhaps because you have no real argument! Moore has not said "God's will" overrides secular law, and until they start jailing people for making graven images and adultery, you'd do best to stick to the facts.

He has claimed many times, on TV, that the Federal judge himself is "in contempt of God's law". It seems like he thinks that God's word overrides the Federal jurisprudence. He disobeys the secular law that he has sworn to uphold. We have a government of laws, not men. Of you get an order from a federal judge who outranks you, you comply. If you disagree, seek redress in court, like the people in your state have to do. Where would the judge end up if people in his courtroom disobeyed his orders and said to him, "You're in contempt of my God's law?"

Look: he snuck the monument into the courthouse at night. He knew damn well that it was brazen and legally questionable, and he knew damn well that it would generate controversy and give him an opportunity to grandstand. He only did it because he wanted to curry favor with both his deity and his constituents. He wanted to publically martyr himself and "take one for the Lord", and I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the guy will run for Alabama governor within the next two election cycles.
 
Well put Marko. However, it is the very fact that he snuck the monument in at night that says to me that he was not acting as a judge, but as an ordinary citizen illegally using public lands for disposal of property.
 
Once again: Actions by government agents in their official capacities are "law" in the Anglo-American legal tradition.

And I'll point out again, that vague and ill-defined legal "traditions" don't trump the bill of rights! If you want every decision a government functionary makes to be defined as a "law" then you need to draft an amendment and get two thirds of the states to ratify it.

If you're standing in the court house foyer and a judge walks up and tells you that your pink flamingo tie (souvenir of Okechobee Springs!) is too ugly to be worn in a public place - is that a law? Can he have you arrested if you don't remove and immediately burn the offending fashion mistake?

If you resisted this impromptu fashion "law" and were arrested, would the DA be able to prosecute the case? Would the judge trying the case agree that any decision of a judge has the force of law? Would the federal courts (interstate transportation of a fashion crime) uphold the ruling?

Get real!

Keith
 
i'm still confused...

So you don't have to swear on the bible...you may affirm...the bible isn't removed from the courtroom; so you don't have to look at the ten commandments...can't you just walk on by without having them removed from their place of display?

Isn't there a National Cathedral in Washington? Doesn't the headstone on all veterans fallen in wars display government funded depictions of religion? Does our coinage, our oaths, and our pledges use God as well as pagan depictions of greco-roman gods and mystic rites in them?

Doesn't the president ask for national prayer during the times of crisis? Isn't congress opened in prayer. It's funny how prayer is removed from the clasroom because we don't want to corrupt our youth. I doubt many drug dealers and gangsters pray or look for divine intervention before going to work each day.

Isn't the architecture of Washington and many other cultural centers based upon greco-roman temple architecture? The monuments of shilo and other battelfields are most certainly religiously based.

Relgious references are certainly prevalent in our society...and have been since its birth. Just because we have an American Culture, doesn't imply intolerance.

I still don't get the outrage. I think it's political correctness gone haywire.
 
The citizens of Alabama have no right to commandeer public property to exercise their religion.

The judge is the head-dude-in-charge of the court house. He can decorate the place any way he wants, just as the guy in charge of any government building can do. If the new head-dude-in-charge (that replaces Moore)doesn't like the decorations, he can remove them - and neither situation is a violation of the 1st Amendment.

Judge Moore was acting in his function as the Chief Justice. As such, he used his office to advance his religion, thereby implying that the judiciary of the State of Alabama officially favors Christianity above all other faiths.

You are again stretching the point beyond credulity! The Ten Commandments are from the old testament and recognized by Christians, Jews and Muslims! And those three groups are broken down into thousands of individual religions. It is not a "Christian" monument!

I recognize the historical place of the Ten Commandments, but I find it absurd to claim that "our laws derived from Biblical law".

Well, that's right. In effect, to violate the first amendment the judge would have to issue rulings based on biblical law. And if he did, those rulings would be a violation - not a rock in the courthouse foyer!

"...shall make no law..."

Keith
 
Keith,

It is you who is insisting that law be defined more narrowly than the Anglo-American legal usage of the word concurrent with the ratification of the Constitution. Thus the burden is on you to provide evidence that the founders changed its defintion to whatever restricted sense you are insisting upon.
 
Relgious references are certainly prevalent in our society...and have been since its birth. Just because we have an American Culture, doesn't imply intolerance.

I still don't get the outrage. I think it's political correctness gone haywire.


I kinda agree with you, but I want to reenforce a point.

The idea that you may go before a judge at some point and be judged not only on civil and criminal law, but on that judge's opinion of whether you and your behavior are acceptable to his God - well, that should scare the bejeezus out of you.

In practical terms, that's why we have an 'establishment clause' in the Constitution.

db
 
It is you who is insisting that law be defined more narrowly than the Anglo-American legal usage of the word concurrent with the ratification of the Constitution.

Nope, sorry, that doesn't pass the "smell test". You are claiming that every action and/or utterance of a public official is a law!

The police chief doesn't need a warrant to raid your home because (as a public offcial) his word is "law" that overrides the 4th amendment... I don't think so!

Keith
 
but on that judge's opinion of whether you and your behavior are acceptable to his God - well, that should scare the bejeezus out of you.

Such a ruling would be a violation of the first amendment. Having a religiously themed rock in the courthouse foyer, isn't.

Two different issues. You all need to stick with the rock in the foyer and leave the "what if the judge did this, or that" out of it.

Keith
 
The police chief doesn't need a warrant to raid your home because (as a public offcial) his word is "law" that overrides the 4th amendment... I don't think so!
When did I claim that laws override the BoR? If the police chief declares he has authority to make warrantless raids and starts doing so, he has made and enforced a law -- a bogus, unconstitutional law, but a law nonetheless. That law, I would hope, would be stopped with the 4th.

Now, please provide evidence that the founders used the term law in a manner more narrow than the Anglo-American legal usage concurrent with the ratification of the Constitution.
 
a bogus, unconstitutional law

Kind of like rulings based on an imaginary "separation of church and state" which was derived from.........................................nowhere.:p
 
If the police chief declares he has authority to make warrantless raids and starts doing so, he has made and enforced a law

Nope, he hasn't. He (and his men) are now armed burglars who will have to pay for their crime under various criminal and civil charges arising from a violation of the 4th amendment.

Now, please provide evidence that the founders used the term law in a manner more narrow than the Anglo-American legal usage concurrent with the ratification of the Constitution.

Law
Main Entry: 1law
Pronunciation: 'lo
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lagu, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse log law; akin to Old English licgan to lie -- more at LIE
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority

Do we as a community formally recognize every action and utterance of a public official to be binding and enforcable? If the mayor tells you your Pink Flamingo tie is illegal, does those words have the force of law? Or would he have to place a bill before the city council and get a majority vote to make ugly ties illegal?

Get real!

Keith
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top