The 10 MM as a Bear Gun

[burk]

I got a great deal on a S & W 29 4" last year, unfortunately I need money bad (trying to rebuild my life after a couple of years of being severely underemployed). Anyway I'm considering selling the Smith and picking up a BBL for my Glock 30SF or maybe a used 20SF in a couple of years when I get back on my feet and get a chance to get back in Bear Country (MT, AK) again. The numbers on the big Buffalo Bore 220 grain Hard-case look real good with about 1150 FPS out the door.

The thing about a Bear protection gun for me is it is the least used firearm in my inventory, I use the .45 for fishing in N. MI and am more than confident in it's stopping ability on anything I'll encounter in the North country. And my nines handle the duty at home. So I look at this as a luxury possession verses a necessary tool.

I am not looking for a gun for hunting, and shotgun will NOT fill the bill, because my use will be primarily Fly fishing in the back country. I'm frankly not as fearful of the big AK bears, most of those trips are guided, and those Bears are well fed (Katmai park Salmon) and don't seem to view people in waders as dinner or a threat. But in MT where the Bears have got to scrape up a new meal every day I'm more concerned, I'm pretty slow in a pair of Waders.

 

[Deaf Smith]

One of the largest brownies ever killed, no, i think THE largest ever killed, in defense of oneself, was killed by a Canadian with a 30/30 lever action rifle and plain 30/30 ammo.

Dropped 'em with a noggin shot at just a few paces.

Now if you look at the skull of such creatures you will find they ain't Cape Buffalo. So a hard cast .40 might very well penetrate if blunt shaped (and most of them are.)

While I'm a .44 man, I see no reason, if top hard case loads are used, you can't use your 10mm. Just keep in mind it won't shock a bear off it's feet nor go through it stem to stern. The .44 Magnum won't shock 'em off their feet either, but might (or might not) make it from one end to another with the most heavies loads.

Just make sure you can hit a bobbing head at say, 15 yards every time, quick!

Oh, and if you get ate by a bear, well I guess I was mistaken. Sorry!

Deaf

 

[IdahoSkies]

I carry an 29sf for similar reasons. You really are trading performance for capacity. The 10mm is not in the same class as the .44 mag. There are few handgun rounds in the class of a .44 mag. What you get by going to the 10mm is increased capacity and all the things that go with the semiauto vs. revolver debate.

No handgun round is adequate for bear defense. But I'm more likely to have my 10 than a rifle. For my calculation the 10mm fits a good balance between capacity, bullet weight/fps, and weight. Your mileage may very.

I think a 10mm is actually better to deal with wolves and coyotes, who are pack animals, than bears.

When it comes to bears, good trail sense and bear spray are the best things around.

 

[Barry the Bear]

.44 mag is better for the larger critters, it handles heavier bullet weights with more cash capacity than the 10mm, while a 10mm is "fine" I guess I wouldn't downgrade when you have a more than capable caliber already. If you really just want the semi than go for it but don't compare the 2, the 10mm is outclassed by the .44 mag hell even a properly loaded .44 spl and higher calibers.

 

[Snowdog]

I just recently purchased a 10mm for trail use and fully understand wanting to keep costs down on something you don't plan to use much. I opted for the RIA 51991 and I'm pretty darn happy with it so far.

From my own experience, I almost always develop seller's remorse. You may want to hang on to that S&W 29 and explore other options.

Have you looked into hard cast loads for the G30 that you already have? Underwood offers a 255gr. hard cast (with a Brinell of 21) trucking along at 925 FPS yielding 480+ ft/lbs. Underwood is known for publishing accurate numbers, so I don't doubt their claims.
I know lead is verboden when it comes to Glocks, but I have heard from many in-the-know who use hard cast of 18 Brinell and higher with good results.

It's also no .44 magnum, but as far as penetration goes, I'd imagine it's no slouch.

 

[Malamute]

This is going to start seeming like a one man crusade,...but....

The Buffalo Bore ammo shouldn't be assumed will work (functional/feeding reliability) in the glock. It may work fine in some guns, it doesn't work well in all. Glock isn't going to do anything about it, they feel that ammo is outside of the performance range the gun was designed for. For those guns that didn't work well, they guy never did get it figured out. Different mag springs and action springs didn't help. He had about a dozen of them (I had mentioned a smaller number before, but he said he's had about a dozen of them, 20's and 29's I think). Just saying, it isn't a given the ammo will work in the gun.

I was thinking of the glock 10, but after watching GJM's experience, I'm staying with my Smith 29 or Ruger 45 SA.

 

[Manny]

Midway has Buffalo Bore 255 gr hard cast .45acp for $25.99 for a box of 20. Basically a stout performing .45 Colt load that'll work through an auto loader. I'd invest the cash in a box an see how it shoots in your Glock 30, the reviews had someone who said it worked fine in his. If it performs well, buy a few more boxes and call it good.

 

[M1key]

edit

 

[burk]

First thing is please understand, I'm considering selling because I badly need the money. And because it's a piece (tool) that is only useful to me one to two weeks maybe every other year, and even then the odds of actually using it is low. My AK experience tells me the Bears in Katmai are really not a huge threat if you use your head, we stay pretty close together, minimally in groups of 4 or more and there is always one guide in the group watching while we fish. All of us have Bear Spray too. At the camp I go to they have never had to use Bear spray or a firearm while fishing. OTOH they did have to kill a Bear in camp (used a 375 H & H for that).

As far as Glock, what every option I choose is going to get a very limited diet of the heavy rounds. And if I go with a BBL for my G30SF it will be the KKM or Storm Lake, and I will use G20 mags, this is not a gun I plan on using for CPL carry. My G30 will still be used with the .45 ACP bbl. As my main home defense and outdoors carry gun. But I don't consider the option of .45 ACP as legit for Brown Bear defense, they are just too big and too thick skinned an animal.

As far as recoil my G30SF is tamer than ANY of my Kimbers were and the poly .45s I've owned have all been better at handling recoil than the steel guns I owned. I suspect it would be the same with 10mm. I doubt my 10mm will kick even close to the .44 shooting 320's. That 4" .44 is a beast with those rounds. The only gun I've ever shot that kicked worse was a Scandium J Frame snubby with .357's!

 

[Deaf Smith]

Just practice a lot with your 10 Burk. Practice and use those top loads. Skill will be far more important that .44 .vs. 10mm .vs. 454 or whatever! The 10mm ain't flicking marbles at the critters. It's still a serious round.

And remember...

The road of life is paved with flattened squirrels who couldn’t make a decision!

So make your decision and go with it.

Deaf

 

[Manny]

Just practice a lot with your 10 Burk. Practice and use those top loads. Skill will be far more important that .44 .vs. 10mm .vs. 454 or whatever! The 10mm ain't flicking marbles at the critters. It's still a serious round.

And remember...

The road of life is paved with flattened squirrels who couldn’t make a decision!

So make your decision and go with it.

Deaf

Lotta good wisdom in this post.

I'd love to have a G29 10mm one day but I honestly wonder how much more penetration you'd get with with it's 200 or 220 gr bullets vs the 255's in BB's bear load. Neither will come close to a .44 w/ 320's.

 

[Onmilo]

I worked with the 10mm cartridge when it first came available.
It is a very decent cartridge.
Much much better than the .40 S&W in all ways.
That said it is a specialty cartridge that requires longer barrel lengths than most people are willing to carry to maximize the potential of the cartridge as a viable large and dangerous game cartridge and it is a reloaders proposition if you choose to use the weapon and cartridge in that arena.
Factory ammunition simply will not do with what is available commercially.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

One of the largest bears is the polar bear. The Danish government issues 30-06 rifles, and Glock 10mm pistols to the Sirius Sledge Patrol for use in Greenland for polar bear defense.

Personally, when I'm in Wyoming, Montana, and northern Idaho, I carry either a .44 magnum or a .460 S&W depending upon how much hiking I am doing and what other equipment I may be carrying.

With the .44 or .460, it is quite easy to find flat meplat, hard cast, heavy bullet ammunition for bear use.

As an example, Garrett makes .44 magnum ammunition with hard cast 330 grain bullets that chronograph at 1200 fps from a 4-inch barrel. Buffalo Bore makes an equivalent round, as do several other manufacturers.

Buffalo Bore does make 10mm ammunition with a hard cast 220 grain bullet at 1200 fps. HSM also makes a 10mm bear load with a hard cast bullet.

I know my Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, and the .460 S&W will hold up to the heavy loads as they are made for that type of use. The question is whether the Glock 20 will as well.

 

[jhb]

Watched a video where a guy in alaska killed a grizzly with his hi point .45 pistol. I think its less about what gun and which large caliber and more about shot placement and good old fashioned luck. Im in the deep south a 10mm glock will kill all down here. Its what i use for swamp and jungle moving. Add a 6" barrel and its a supreme hog hunting hangun, but works fine even on the bigger hogs in factory barrel length.

When i was growing up everyone told me only a .44mag would kill a big hog dead. They were wrong.

All that said we only have big raccoons called florida black bears down here. Mostly harmless trash pickers just like a big raccoon. If i was up there in big bear lands i might want that .44mag......

 

[Duvel]

I know my Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, and the .460 S&W will hold up to the heavy loads as they are made for that type of use. The question is whether the Glock 20 will as well.

I've got about 3K through my gen 4, running either a 20 or 24# spring. Many loads were pretty light (sub 500 ft #), many were in the 650-750 ft # range.

It functions as new

 

[jmr40]

It would be extremely rare for most of us to be in an area where the truly big bear live. For most of us a 200-400 black bear is the biggest threat we'll ever see and a 10mm or 357 mag is as capable as any of the really big handguns or a rifle.

I own both a G20 and G29 loaded with DoubleTap 200gr hardcast ammo @1300 fps in bear country. While it isn't in the same league as 44 mag if the 44 is fired from an 8" barrel. It is a lot closer than most folks realize when you start firing the 44's through 3-4" barrels. And it is in a package much more compact for hiking.

I own two 629's, a 3" and a 4" version. They stay home.

 

[Onmilo]

Watched a video where a guy in alaska killed a grizzly with his hi point .45 pistol. I think its less about what gun and which large caliber and more about shot placement and good old fashioned luck. Im in the deep south a 10mm glock will kill all down here. Its what i use for swamp and jungle moving. Add a 6" barrel and its a supreme hog hunting hangun, but works fine even on the bigger hogs in factory barrel length.

When i was growing up everyone told me only a .44mag would kill a big hog dead. They were wrong.

All that said we only have big raccoons called florida black bears down here. Mostly harmless trash pickers just like a big raccoon. If i was up there in big bear lands i might want that .44mag......

Amen.
I've been around black bears and while they can be a nuisance they only seem to attack when they get the idea you are an easy pick food item, much the same manner as a feral dog.
Cougars are another "Dangerous" animal that can be easily killed with the 10mm and hogs are a prime candidate for this caliber too.

When the words "Bear Gun" are brought up, in my mind we are talking the largest and most unpredictable of bruins and frankly in those scenarios it won't matter what is in your hands, you are going to have the feeling that you need a bigger boat.

 

[WYO]

Midway has Buffalo Bore 255 gr hard cast .45acp for $25.99 for a box of 20. Basically a stout performing .45 Colt load that'll work through an auto loader. I'd invest the cash in a box an see how it shoots in your Glock 30, the reviews had someone who said it worked fine in his. If it performs well, buy a few more boxes and call it good.

Yeah, that’s me. The inspiration for the test was this test done by a guy who has killed some big critters with big bore handguns, including an Alaskan brown bear who charged while he was dressing out a moose. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4943512/all/The_Old_War_Hores_Is_More_Capa

While he carries much more powerful handguns for hunting, he thinks the BB 255 +P hard cast is adequate. Read the thread for insight.

I redid his test with my Glock 30SF here:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10273160/Re:_Buffalo_Bore_.45_ACP_+P_25

Penetration and breaking stuff is what counts with handguns, not velocity and fpe.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Someone above said 10mm needs a long barrel for FPS. That isn't correct. The difference between the G29 and G20 is usually 100 FPS or less. What is correct is revolver rounds need longer barrels to get advertised FPS. As 5" revolvers a rare, the drop from the usually stated 6 or 8 inch barrel is significant in a 4 inch barrel.

A thought: I would consider the ramifications of the HARDEST 10mm loads on the Glock 45's slides as the 45s are one ounce lighter than the Glock 10mms. It isn't just the barrel cutout. The Glock 10mms are beefier.

 

[Onmilo]

Someone above said 10mm needs a long barrel for FPS. That isn't correct. The difference between the G29 and G20 is usually 100 FPS or less. What is correct is revolver rounds need longer barrels to get advertised FPS. As 5" revolvers a rare, the drop from the usually stated 6 or 8 inch barrel is significant in a 4 inch barrel.

A thought: I would consider the ramifications of the HARDEST 10mm loads on the Glock 45's slides as the 45s are one ounce lighter than the Glock 10mms. It isn't just the barrel cutout. The Glock 10mms are beefier.

I'd like to see a two camera video of the chronograph results to prove that assessment.
Especially if the load is one capable of providing kill shot penetration on the thickest skinned heaviest furred large bears and my testing indicated only a 200 grain HARD CAST or total metal jacket bullet is going to get you there, i.e. 1150-1200 fps
The hollowpoint personal defense bullets are inadequate for this purpose.

 

[Onmilo]

Yeah, that’s me. The inspiration for the test was this test done by a guy who has killed some big critters with big bore handguns, including an Alaskan brown bear who charged while he was dressing out a moose. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4943512/all/The_Old_War_Hores_Is_More_Capa

While he carries much more powerful handguns for hunting, he thinks the BB 255 +P hard cast is adequate. Read the thread for insight.

I redid his test with my Glock 30SF here:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10273160/Re:_Buffalo_Bore_.45_ACP_+P_25

Penetration and breaking stuff is what counts with handguns, not velocity and fpe.

Key point here, while he THINKS a load may be adequate he hasn't actually used that load, preferring much more powerful stuff for his own needs,,,,

 

[Barry the Bear]

Even out of short barrel lengths the .44 will still hold an edge due to its ability to handle much higher bullet weights than the 10mm

 

[Polar Express]

I think my brain just might explode.

I started one thread, felt like I kinda took over another (sorry about that) and here is a 3rd on basically, the same subject I'm trying to learn about, and make a decision.

First, thanks for those links to other threads. I don't know if I can actually digest all 300 pages of that Terminal Bullet Performance thread, but I should give it a solid effort.

I even joined another forum simply to reach out to a member there, (the one Malamute referred to) and he was gracious enough to offer a reply. It sure seems like he has some real-world experience, and frankly, some skin in the game as he resides in AK. He also appears highly regarded by other members of that forum, so I'm willing to take his statements as fact. Now, he freely admits that he is an HK fan, (he actually wrote Fan-boy) and I'm sure they make a quality product. One of his stated reasons for his firearm choice, is that the HK product he chose can handle the .45 Super. Cool.

Now, I'm not an Engineer, but I do have a degree in the field... so I get numbers. I don't want to over-geek the numbers, but for the folks who don't shoot for free, or have a trust fund, the numbers are a less-expensive (and much less fun) way of learning what rounds can do what...

If we're talking about brown bears, or a moose, in a DEFENSIVE situation, I'm hoping to find a platform that will feel super-similar the the DEFENSIVE handgun I carry and train with. (in the process of making the switch to the Glock 19 for that, and about to order 5000 rounds to take to classes) So... with all that developing muscle-memory, I'm leaning towards a Glock product.

Now, looking at ENERGY numbers only, that 10mm isn't much different than the 45 super. The Glock 21 doesn't appear to be listed to handle the 45 super. But, some folks have expressed bad experiences getting hardcast bullets to feed reliably in the Glock 20. Underwood offers a product that uses those all-copper super-penetrating Lehigh bullets, and I suspect the shape will allow those to feed just fine. I've contacted Berry's plated bullets, to ask if they offer a copper-plated version of their hardcast flat-nosed bullets, they kindly replied quickly, but they do NOT. (I was wondering if the copper coating would assist with feeding)

Then there's always the 460 Rowland. Geez those NUMBERS are silly hot. But, again, we're back to NUMBERS. And... that kit appears to add 1"+ the end of the bbl, with the compensator. That could easily qualify squarely in the 'hand-cannon' discussion. Lets return for a moment to the HK product that can handle the 45 Super... for the cost of the HK, you can get a Glock 21, and the 460 Rowland kit. Or.. you can guy a Glock 20 and about 2K+ rounds to train with.

It's relatively common knowledge that a longer barrel yields better performance. But.. longer barrels are also slower to deploy and get on target in a SD situation. So... is there a 'sweet-spot'? (hot enough load to get a large enough bullet mass, moving fast enough out of a gun that has enough barrel length to develop that velocity, but short enough to deploy quickly, and reliable enough for SD?) It seems like this is the question that all 3 threads are really asking, am I kinda on the right track?

Anyone got some pixy dust?
PE

 

[Deaf Smith]

Folks, if in doubt... if you are not sure of .357 or 10mm or 41 Magnum or .44 magnum or .454, etc.... If you really worry about being turned into a snack...

Just get a Mossie 500 18 inch 12 gauge and Brenneke Black Magic 600 grain slugs. At 1500 fps it will go through the critters stem to stern, or break shoulders, and penetrate the hardest Brownie noggen, even Cape Buffalo thick. Might even fell the tree behind the bear and strike oil.

Course it mite kick a bit.

Deaf

 

[Malamute]

Polar, I think youre going about this in a thinking way. I don't know about the 45 Super in the g-21, its probably do-able, but I have no information about it. It may be worth doing some homework on.

You can try the g-20, and just see what level of loads will work reliably and just shoot them. I think GJM and others concluded it ended up being basically a 40+p rather than a 41 mag lite if it doesn't reliably feed the extra-heavy 10mm loads on the market. That's not to say it doesn't have any utility, it just isn't quite what many hope it can be. For myself, If I couldn't afford an H-K, Id consider a g-21 and heavy-ish loads, even if not super-powered. Theres likely information on the net about how to make them run on 45+p at least, if not 45 Super. Besides heavier recoil springs, it sometimes gets into different magazine springs and such in uploading autos, the slide velocity overruns the ability of the mag spring to get a new round up fast enough to feed. Don't know if that's the case here, but keep it in mind if you try it.