The .38 special FBI load: still the best?

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NoirFan

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I'm coming back to the trusty .38 after a bit of a shooting hiatus and I'm not up to date on the current defensive ammo out there. I bought a box of Remington 158-gr SWHP, as I remember reading that was the old standard for defensive shooting in that caliber. Are there better loads available nowadays that I'm overlooking?

These loads will be fired out of a 2" Model 36, if that makes a difference.
 
If you are talking about the Remington HTP 158 grain LSWCHP "+P", than I think the answer is no. Read this thread for why:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/369540-just-tested-new-remington-htp-fbi-load-vs-old-one.html

In short, the new Remington "HTP" version of this round has pitiful velocity, and supposedly a harder bullet and probably won't expand worth a hoot from a snub nose. So, they basically ruined there own product. This exact same load seems to have lost about 100 FPS or more compared to the old Remington Express version that ceased production a handful of years ago.

No other manufacturers make the FBI load anymore either, except Buffalo Bore. From tests I've seen, there 158 grain +P LSWCHP makes a mess out of ballistics gel, good penetration and massive expansion. But, it is a VERY HOT load... with significant recoil. Truly off the charts power for the cartridge, but I prefer something more controllable.

I personally use Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain +P in both my snubs and 4" duty revolvers. It does wonderfully in BOTH platforms, which is very rare for a .38 special. NYPD did or still does issue that same load for not only their backup guns, but also for the remaining officers still toting S&W Model 10s etc. on duty. It couples good penetration with very nice and consistent expansion, with controllable recoil and minimal muzzle blast/flash. It truly is excellent IMHO.

I highly suggest you look up that Speer load. The FBI load WAS a great load, and I think it still would be about tops IF it was still produced by more manufacturers and the folks over at Remington etc. didn't ruin the current offering how they did.
 
There are lots of light, high speed, expanding bullets out there today, but your most limiting factor is what ammo hits where you aim at in a fixed sights gun. If you have to go with a heavier bullet, what you have might be your best choice as 158gr hollow points may not achieve the velocity to open up properly in your gun. A light bullet might work great, but hit a foot low at 15 feet. Its going to take some experimentation.

Aside from that, I predict you will get every .38 bullet known to man recommended by somebody in this thread.
 
Cooldill pretty much covered it....

Older Remington 158 LSWCHP is good to go but the newer HTP versions have really been a let down for anybody who has tested them.

Speer 135 GDHP Short Barrel is good to go.

Buffalo Bore 158 LSWCHP is good to go.

I have a good stock pile of both older production Remington and PD trade in Speer short barrel so I carry either in my 38's but I prefer the Remington 158 LSWCHP's.
Will
 
Roger what cooldill said, with a note that the 125 grain Remington +P Golden Saber round comes in a close second to the irrefutable 135 grain Gold Dot SB round. A little less penetration perhaps, but excellent expansion is present along with very ragged bullet petal edges.
 
How about the Winchester 38SPL. +P, 158 GR. lead-semi wad cutter HP?

Item# X38SPD

That is what I have loaded in my model 36 and it seems to perform just fine on targets and water jugs.

How does it compare to the Remington product?
 
Roger what cooldill said, with a note that the 125 grain Remington +P Golden Saber round comes in a close second to the irrefutable 135 grain Gold Dot SB round. A little less penetration perhaps, but excellent expansion is present along with very ragged bullet petal edges.
Indeed.

That is a good performing load as well for snubs. I prefer the Speer GDSB load to it however. Shooting at my local dimly lit indoor range, the difference in muzzle flash was significant between the Golden Sabers and the Speer GDSB. The Golden Sabers sure had some flash to them, while the Speer was almost unnoticeable.
 
I carry Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr. FTX in my snubby. In my real world testing through demin and into water barrel all the rounds expanded.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------;

Just call me Elmer.
 
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They seem great except in dinky short barrel revolvers with exotic metal frames and cylinders that weigh about 12 ounces. In those bullets could back out of casings under recoil making revolver inoperable.
 
I carry Hornady Critical Defense 125 gr. FTX in my snubby. In my real world testing through demin and into water barrel all the rounds expanded.

Check if those are 357 MAG rounds loaded to 9mm specs.

A couple of well done youtube.com vids show the 110 grain Hornady 38 Specials failing to expand in denim over gel testing.
 
Intersting topic.

Does anyone remember the Glazier Safety Slugs pre-fragmented projectiles? I believe Cor-Bon makes them now. What is the group's opinion of those?

I always liked the idea that a stray round would usually self destruct when it hit a door or drywall, reducing the risk of injury to bystanders, but "supposedly" was extremely effective when it hit its intended target. Or perhaps that's all just hype and advertisement?)
 
Intersting topic.

Does anyone remember the Glazier Safety Slugs pre-fragmented projectiles? I believe Cor-Bon makes them now. What is the group's opinion of those?

I always liked the idea that a stray round would usually self destruct when it hit a door or drywall, reducing the risk of injury to bystanders, but "supposedly" was extremely effective when it hit its intended target. Or perhaps that's all just hype and advertisement?)
Not enough penetration to reliably reach vital organs with those. Good on paper, bad on the streets.

I think in this thread, you're going to get some responses from folks recommending whatever load they use in their revolvers. Often times, they haven't done the homework to know what said loads will do from their specific guns. Things like marketing, price, or hearsay have a very very large influence on anyone buying defensive ammunition... unfortunately, more people care about those things vs actually learning about what they're buying and what it does in the real world.

I recommend only those loads that I've THOROUGHLY researched and personally tested, and know that they do in fact have the capacity for excellent real world performance. OP, and anybody else reading, make sure you know how your ammo really performs from your gun. Don't rely on a magazine ad, commercial, or a fancy cardboard box to make that decision for you. This goes with all calibers, not just .38 special.

Just saying.
 
golden saber were discontinued weren't they?

That would be a travesty. The GS was the first bullet developed for improved performance after the 1986 Miami shootout between the FBI and a couple of miscreants. A box or two should wind up on display at The Smithsonian if it's curtain call.
 
I think TimSr was correct when he predicted the recommendation of every .38 Special offering known.

I still like the 'FBI load'. I prefer heavy bullets, even if they don't expand as most seem to think essential. However, the bullets must have a flat meplat - the wider the better - and a square shoulder on the bullet.

Yes, the lighter bullet loads are more popular. So what? Popularity has never equalled utility in my experience.
 
I carry the Ruger LCR .38 and have been carrying a snubby for over 46 years.

My favorite ammo is Cor-Bon DPX and Speer Gold Dot 135gr.+P.

The recoil is a little less with the Cor-Bon.
 
Can someone explain what, exactly, an "FBI Load" is? (Obviously, it's something the FBI issued at one time.) Can someone give specifics, such as bullet type and weight and powder type and charge and/or muzzle velocity?
 
The Alaskan, the FBI load was a 38 Special loaded to +P velocity using a 158 grain plain lead bullet usually described as a "semi-wadcutter hollow point".

A semi-wadcutter is sometimes described as a Keith-style bullet, after Elmer Keith. (I don't know if he invented the form, but he was very much associated with it.) It is a slightly sub-caliber truncated cone on top of a full-caliber cylindrical base. You can probably Google up a picture of it, or of a lead semi-wadcutter hollow point (which abbreviates to LSWCHP) pretty easily.

The factory FBI loads had "swaged" lead bullets, which means that a piece of soft lead of the correct weight was pressed into a die to produce the desired shape. Swaged bullets are quite soft, generally softer than cast bullets, which aids the expansion of a hollow point. (As I understand it, most plain lead bullets by major manufacturers are swaged, because the method is well suited to mass production.)

I believe the FBI load was also sometimes known as the Chicago load, or the Metro load (after Metro Miami?), because these police forces were also early adopters of it. I don't know if the FBI developed it in-house, or if it was done by one of the ammunition manufacturers, or a handloader. I know a company called Super Vel (founded by a man named Lee Jurras) began marketing hollowpoint pistol ammunition in the early 1970s, but I don't know if the FBI load was one of their products.

Thirty-five years or forty years ago, this was one of the first hollowpoint loads to be recognized as effective and reliable, and to achieve wide acceptance in law enforcement. With crime rising since the mid-1960s, many law enforcement agencies had come to recognize that the traditional 38 Special standard-velocity round-nose lead bullet often lacked effectiveness, even with a solid hit. Many agencies did not wish to spend the money for new guns, and many policemen disliked the heavy recoil, flash, and blast of 357 Magnum, so the FBI load presented a very attractive solution.

In this thread, posters have suggested that major manufacturers have reduced the muzzle velocity of their 38 Special +P ammunition. This might be unusually important for their +P 158 gr. LSWCHP loads, since it is unusually heavy for a 38 caliber (actually .357 inch or 9mm) hollowpoint and may have been near the lower limit of the velocity required for effective expansion in the first place. I have no chronograph and do not shoot enough 38 Special ammunition to have an opinion.

I hope this answers your question, and I apologize if it is more than you wanted to know. :)
 
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