The best-and worst-rifle safeties

[someguy2800]

Incidentally, out of curiosity I looked what it would take to shear off the half-cock hooks or through the sear. The shear strength of 4140 is about 60 thousand pounds per square inch, and the cross section of both those parts at the relevant point is about 1/64th of a square inch. So that suggests that about a thousand pounds of force were required to cause the damage you described.

It seems to me that without the help of either a file or rust or some sort of repeated blows causing fatigue, it ain't gonna happen. Or i guess if an elephant stepped on the hammer.

I didn't realize they had 4140 steel in 1876

 

[someguy2800]

Mosin safety stymied me until I was told: pull back the striker with the right hand, rotate the rifle with the left hand.
I still tend to go French Lebel on it: empty chamber until actually shooting it; Muzzle awareness and trigger discipline while shooting; clear the rifle if not shooting. The Mosin safety as WHB Smith pointed out blocks discharge in four ways; it is still not convenient, but I am not convinced relying on mechanical parts that can fail is better than stictly following Cooper's Four.

I will admit I rarely use the safety on my Mosin unless I'm walking a considerable distance with it. The trigger is like 9 lbs and travels a 3/8 of an inch so that in itself is kind of a safety. I'm curious how often the red army actually used them.

 

[Llama Bob]

I didn't realize they had 4140 steel in 1876

All the guns with the unnecessary lawyer safeties are made out of 4140 or something similar. The part is likely also heat treated, which will increase the shear strength above what base 4140 would give.

The point here is that the half cock notch is substantially over-designed. It's very hard to apply 1000 lbs of force to that part because it's so small - the pressure at the spot where you were pushing on it would be 10s of KPSI. You could do it with a big enough hammer, but if that's the cause of failure I don't care.

 

[Andrewsky]

You should use a safety, but not trust a safety. If you don't understand how to use the Mosin safety then you need to put that weapon down until you learn how to use it. You place the butt in the crook of your elbow and grasp it with your thumb and forefinger. Walking around in the field with a rifle in condition 0 is dangerous. If I had a hunting buddy doing that I'd go home.

 

[GAF]

I like the safety on my Browning BLR`s. Half cock and a folding hammer.
Safety`s I hate, de-cocker. They scares me every time the hammer slams home.
De-cocker safety`s just seem un-natural to me.

 

[benEzra]

Best: AR-15 and similar rotary thumb safeties.

Ok: Tang safeties.

So-so: Crossbolt safeties (can’t engage and disengage without moving your firing hand off the grip; you can do one or the other, but not both).

Awful: Mosin-Nagant plunger type.

 

[herrwalther]

Ar-15 is probably the best safety for me. Probably because safety manipulation is the #1 rehearsal in gun fighter school. After 10,000 ready up drills, that safety is very easy to manipulate.

There are tons of safeties I am meh on. Cross bolt safety on my 336. Its nice to have but I could find ways to live without it. Either use a half cock hammer or completely decocked hammer. I put a hammer extender on my hammer so it can be manipulated with the scope I put on. So it is much harder (but not impossible) to slip the hammer. Mossberg 500 safety I could go without. Would rather have something near the trigger like the 870 or Maverick 88 safeties.

Several safeties I don't like. Mosin Nagant. Well covered here so I won't beat the dead horse much more. One of the upgrades I had planned for my MN hunting rifle was the safety ring for the bolt knob. Supposedly it makes using the safety much easier. I had a ceremonial M14 in college (long story) and that was a shoddy safety to turn on. Maybe it was because it was old and a bit rusted, but I always got my finger pinched pushing the safety back into the trigger guard.

I cannot stand the 3 stage safeties on Savage and other rifles. I had a Savage Axis and hated the 3 stage safety. I only like my safeties in 2 flavors safe and fire (unless its a really fun rifle with burst or auto, then 3/4).

 

[rskent]

Best - AR, My thumb is right there anyway.

Worst - Garand, put the safety in the trigger guard, Say what?

Worst 2 – Any cross-bolt safety, is safe to the left, or right?

 

[boom boom]

I’d have to say it’s the smelly Enfield. I loved the rifle but if you put the safety on with a round chambered taking it off discharged the rifle. Prolly not all of them. But mine was like that.

Probably, your cocking piece was damaged or perhaps a chipped sear--(they can chip or break on key surfaces)/worn/or buggered up by Bubba to get a lighter trigger pull (changed the sear engagement angles in an improper way or cut through case hardening on some rifles). That can be an issue with sears/cocking pieces surfaces in Mausers as well as other military rifles and civilian rifles. This should always be tested on any used rifle (or sometimes even new) that you buy as a standard safety check. Of course, check it with an empty magazine and chamber.

 

[boom boom]

Actually, if we are talking military rifles then the Martini-Henry could be said to have the worst since it has no safety at all.

IronHand

He was joking, French arms notoriously did not have safeties on their bolt action rifles--neither the Lebel, Berthier, or MAS 36 bolt actions had them. Century retrofitted some trigger blocking safety for importing the MAS. Protocol was leaving the bolt out of battery with some saying with a empty chamber while other claim with a loaded chamber.

 

[anymanusa]

Scar17 and ar type rifles have the best.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Martini-Henry and it's lack of a safety was one of the things that did Napoleon, the Prince Imperial in. The Prince Imperial was the son of Napoleon III, who you remember got chased out of France after the Franco-Prussian War.

The Prince Imperial was raised in England and went to the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich. After that, he went out as an "observer" during the Zulu War. He was with a British column, and the lieutenant assigned to watch after him had to go out and locate a new location for the headquarters. They took a cavalry escort, but the cavalry had only Martini-Henry carbines, and with no safeties, carried them unloaded.

They came upon a Zulu Kraal, with the fires still burning. Now an American patrol would have said, "Oh-oh! Scouts out!". But the British said, "I say! Jolly convenient! Have a spot of tea, what?" And sat down to brew tea.

As they were finishing, Zulus sprang up all around them. None of the escort's carbines were loaded, and the officers' revolvers were in saddle holsters. The Prince Imperial managed to get one foot in the stirrup when his horse bolted -- leaving him hanging on by his saddle holsters. The strap broke, and that was the end of Bonapartist plots in France.

The British gave him a really nice funeral, though.

 

[someguy2800]

The Martini-Henry and it's lack of a safety was one of the things that did Napoleon, the Prince Imperial in. The Prince Imperial was the son of Napoleon III, who you remember got chased out of France after the Franco-Prussian War.

The Prince Imperial was raised in England and went to the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich. After that, he went out as an "observer" during the Zulu War. He was with a British column, and the lieutenant assigned to watch after him had to go out and locate a new location for the headquarters. They took a cavalry escort, but the cavalry had only Martini-Henry carbines, and with no safeties, carried them unloaded.

They came upon a Zulu Kraal, with the fires still burning. Now an American patrol would have said, "Oh-oh! Scouts out!". But the British said, "I say! Jolly convenient! Have a spot of tea, what?" And sat down to brew tea.

As they were finishing, Zulus sprang up all around them. None of the escort's carbines were loaded, and the officers' revolvers were in saddle holsters. The Prince Imperial managed to get one foot in the stirrup when his horse bolted -- leaving him hanging on by his saddle holsters. The strap broke, and that was the end of Bonapartist plots in France.

The British gave him a really nice funeral, though.

Funny story, a good friend of mine was very close to a Chaplin in the Airborn in WW2. For reasons I don't recall he was briefly attached to a British unit during the Normandy campaign. The unit commander's automatic response to meeting any resistance was to order his men to hold up and make tea. He said he remembered huddling in a building waiting for the pot to boil as bullets were hitting the outside walls and the commander refused to do anything or give any orders until they were done with tea. He was of course quickly removed.

 

[herrwalther]

Funny story, a good friend of mine was very close to a Chaplin in the Airborn in WW2. For reasons I don't recall he was briefly attached to a British unit during the Normandy campaign. The unit commander's automatic response to meeting any resistance was to order his men to hold up and make tea. He said he remembered huddling in a building waiting for the pot to boil as bullets were hitting the outside walls and the commander refused to do anything or give any orders until they were done with tea. He was of course quickly removed.

There is a guidance in US Army Infantry patrolling called SLLS. It stands for "Stop, Look, Listen, and Smell." The non verbal signal is typically to take off whatever headgear you have and kneel on one knee to look around. One of my military mentors who taught me SLSS asked "Why Smell?" And answered his own question as part of the lesson. When the doctrine guidance was written, it was a well known fact that Brigade headquarters for the Soviet Union were equipped with bread ovens for the officers to make fresh bread. And soldiers preparing for war with the Soviet Union during the Cold War were told to smell, essentially, for bread. The most important Listen ques are sounds of human movement such as twigs breaking or in worst case scenario, safeties being taken off because you are about to be shot at.

 

[Blkhrt13]

Probably, your cocking piece was damaged or perhaps a chipped sear--(they can chip or break on key surfaces)/worn/or buggered up by Bubba to get a lighter trigger pull (changed the sear engagement angles in an improper way or cut through case hardening on some rifles). That can be an issue with sears/cocking pieces surfaces in Mausers as well as other military rifles and civilian rifles. This should always be tested on any used rifle (or sometimes even new) that you buy as a standard safety check. Of course, check it with an empty magazine and chamber.

I had it when I was young. Sold it at 22 worried my kids would get hurt. Never thought to fix it. Vest la vie. I have learned.

 

[Mr. Standfast]

A classic old Western accident was caused by hanging a stirrup on the saddle horn, making a high loop to give you some purchase for tightening up the girth. For if the horse fancies an easy time, he will inhale or flex his stomach muscles to stop you. He isn't going to be the one who falls off. If the stirrup slips off, it can hit a holstered gun, producing a certain discharge if you have been unwise enough to rely on half-cock, and quite possibly breaking or forcing the half-cock notch.

The only traditional Colt I have is a rimfire converted 1862.. The internal parts appear unmolested, and yet it will fire on half-cock with little more force than a double-action revolver.

What always puzzled me is why more people didn't rely on a narrow strap of thick leather on the holster, with a hole for the firing-pin if it is a cartridge revolver. If that is trapped by the hammer, at the bottom of its recess, it will also hold the revolver in the holster. A stiff holster will allow the revolver to be partly or completely cocked before its movement begins, releasing it for the draw.

I sometimes annoy my German wife by telling her that I used to know old men whose fox terrier could detect Germans by smell. Presumably it was either diet or equipment. It didn't appear to be hostility, as he was perfectly civilised with prisoners. It wasn't personal, only business.

 

[boom boom]

I had it when I was young. Sold it at 22 worried my kids would get hurt. Never thought to fix it. Vest la vie. I have learned.

Replying as much for the record if someone does a THR search but unfortunately it is a fairly common problem found in used rifles. Bought a used Arisaka with that problem due to a worn cocking piece/firing pin. The solution was to buy a new firing pin. Worn or Bubba'ed cocking pieces in Mausers are common enough that I periodically buy some new old stock cocking pieces and sears/triggers when they appear for future rifle repairs on purchases. You do sometimes have to fit them carefully though.

Usual culprits are bad trigger jobs or worn/damaged from use. You also see the opposite problem where a rifle will not cock or do so sporadically which is less of a danger but fairly common in old used rifles. A floppy safety is also common among the No. 1 and No. 4 Enfield rifles which can be through a damaged safety spring or improper reassembly of the safety but is an easy fix.

Occasionally the cartridge type aftermarket trigger parts can break as well--one issue is that you want the sear/cocking etc. to be very hard and smooth as glass for a good trigger pull and resistance to wear but that can also make those surfaces brittle which can show itself in the darndest of times. The case hardened parts that are common in these sorts of parts, can easily be damaged by a too enthusiastic removal of the case hardened surface and expose the softer materials below which wear rapidly thus causing a similar problem. Some folks have found this out doing trigger jobs on AR-15 fire control parts for example.

 

[Offfhand]

Seems like a solution looking for a problem. What would keep a gun bearer from unbolting the safety?

In fact, it was very much a problem looking for a solution. With the advent of breech loading rifles with easily released tang safeties there were numerous reports of hunters and other members of hunting parties being accidentally injured and killed by clumsy gunbearers. So high end gunmakers developed the bolted safety to help prevent such tragedies and many buyers insisted on them.. And as to question "What would keep a gun bearer from unbolting the safety/" answer is simple: Why would he want to? The bolted safety is for his benefit as well. Keep in mind that the way big game rifles are typically carried by gunbearers is with rifle balanced over his shoulder with muzzles pointed forward, more or less directly at person in front of him. This position allows a fast transfer of rifle to the hunter, but also emphasizes the safety advantage of the bolted safety. From my very first safari, and since, I promised myself to carry my own rifle. On long slogs back to camp at end of hunting day I've sometimes handed my rifle to a gunbearer but even then only with the bolt closed on an empty chamber.

 

[Penoe Hunter]

By far the safety on the Steyr Mannlicher model s.It takes half a minute to put on or take off

 

[Coal Dragger]

So what is the point of this thread? Is it to identify everyone’s pet ergonomics in a safety control? Or is it to identify the most mechanically capable safety where the goal is to render the rifle incapable of discharging when the user doesn’t want it to?

 

[natman]

The best is the two part safety used on Browning X rifles and Sakos. The safety is on or off, period. When the safety is on, it locks the bolt, which can be unlocked by moving a different lever. This allows the rifle to be unloaded without having to touch the safety.

 

[792mauser]

For the worst.
#1 Mosin
#2 vergueiro safety (I've had 2 (1 now) and both if the safety is worn it will hold the striker back just short and drop it when released)

Más 36/ Berthier / Lebel get honorable mention

 

[tark]

I never thought too highly of a safety design that requires me to put my finger inside the trigger guard to operate.

So how is this in any way shape or form dangerous? If you pull the trigger accidentally nothing happens because the safety is on!

 

[eastbank]

I have hunter Africa five times AND I WOULD NOT WALK AHEAD OF ANY ONE CARRYING A RIFLE ASS BACK WARDS OVER THEIR SHOULDER. if I was to lazy to carry my own rifle or in bad health. quit hunting or ride in a buggy(truck) on your hunt.

 

[rbernie]

So how is this in any way shape or form dangerous? If you pull the trigger accidentally nothing happens because the safety is on!

If I jostle or bump when taking the safety off, I can accidentally fire the rifle when all I wanted to do was take off the safety.