The better medium game round in a pinch: .223 or 7.62x39mm

[Newtosavage]

You are in an extreme minority here though. My experience with the cartridge, being limited to AKs and SKSs, is more common. Most people's interest in this cartridge is its economy. This cartridge was more common when you could buy a New/Unissued Yugo SKS with hand selected bore and 1000 rounds of Wolf for $200.

My bad. I thought the discussion was about the caliber and not the weapon it was being fired from.

If instead we are arguing which platform is better - in a pinch - for hunting, that's a completely different topic.

Incidentally, the least expensive 7.62x39 ammo I can buy is the "Monarch" brand sold locally by Academy sporting goods for $5.49/box of 20. It features a 123-grain hollow point bullet traveling 2400 fps. at the muzzle from a steel case. Believe it or not, that's what my young friend used from my Savage rifle to shoot 9 consecutive clays at 300 yards, and with only a 2-7x scope. I also used it to drop a 250 lb. boar in its tracks with a perfect head shot between the eyes at 100 yards.

Again, just sharing my actual personal experience here.

I think what could be missed here is the fact that a person can have an incredibly accurate hunting rifle chambered in 7.62x39 and offer it to new shooters with $5.49/box ammo for training, then turn around and handload for it and send that same shooter out with an incredibly effective low-recoiling deer rifle. At least - that's how I use that tool in my toolbox.

 

[stolivar]

New to savage so true. I have found out with my CZ527 will shoot incredibly accuracy with reloads.


Steve

 

[MTMilitiaman]

My bad. I thought the discussion was about the caliber and not the weapon it was being fired from.

If instead we are arguing which platform is better - in a pinch - for hunting, that's a completely different topic.

Incidentally, the least expensive 7.62x39 ammo I can buy is the "Monarch" brand sold locally by Academy sporting goods for $5.49/box of 20. It features a 123-grain hollow point bullet traveling 2400 fps. at the muzzle from a steel case. Believe it or not, that's what my young friend used from my Savage rifle to shoot 9 consecutive clays at 300 yards, and with only a 2-7x scope. I also used it to drop a 250 lb. boar in its tracks with a perfect head shot between the eyes at 100 yards.

Again, just sharing my actual personal experience here.

I think what could be missed here is the fact that a person can have an incredibly accurate hunting rifle chambered in 7.62x39 and offer it to new shooters with $5.49/box ammo for training, then turn around and handload for it and send that same shooter out with an incredibly effective low-recoiling deer rifle. At least - that's how I use that tool in my toolbox.

The two are mutually dependent and the platform obviously makes a great deal of difference. The 7.62x39 is a cartridge that has established its reputation from certain rifles. It is like the .30-30 in that regard. When most people picture a 7.62x39, they are not picturing a bolt action rifle, they are picturing an SKS or an AK. Just like when most people picture a .30-30, they see a Win lever gun, not a single shot TC handgun.

Now then, the original topic was on deer hunting "in a pinch." If you are using something in a pinch, chances are you are not buying something specifically for it then handloading for it. "In a pinch," implies that you are using an already existing system and readily available ammo. If you have time to prepare for something buy purchasing a rifle specifically for it, then working up loads for it, that doesn't qualify for "in a pinch." That is a dedicated hunting rifle. Relatively few people have bolt action x39s just sitting around waiting to be pressed into some type of service. More people have an SKS sitting around that, if given an opportunity, could be pressed into service as a hunting rifle "in a pinch."

Therefore, your experiences with the 7.62x39 are an anomaly and nearly completely irrelevant to the subject of this post.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I've lost track of the number of AR owners at my gun club who have been shocked by the accuracy of my Savage 7.62x39. I've yet to see one shoot groups with their AR that can match it. A few come close, but nobody I've seen with an AR is shooting sub-MOA at 300 yards. I'm not knocking the AR here. Uncle Sam trained me on that platform and I know what it can do. Just saying folks shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the SKS/ AK round in a modern bolt action rifle until they have some experience with it (and few do).

Don't compare bolt rifles to AR's.

Plenty of bolt .223's can shoot MOA. Some even guarantee it out of the box.

I've never shot mine at 300 yds but I know it will shoot MOA at 200 yds. Shouldn't be a problem at 300 yds.

The truth is 7.62 x 39 wasn't designed to be a 300 yd cartridge. It was designed for the SKS/AK, a 150 yd. assault rifle.

The .223 was developed from the excellent 222 Remington which became a popular target and benchrest cartridge. It also became a popular deer cartridge (5.7 x 43) in Europe.

I guess one should look at the application of both cartridges, their strengths and weaknesses and decide. I think it's been covered quit well here.

 

[Newtosavage]

The two are mutually dependent and the platform obviously makes a great deal of difference. The 7.62x39 is a cartridge that has established its reputation from certain rifles. It is like the .30-30 in that regard. When most people picture a 7.62x39, they are not picturing a bolt action rifle, they are picturing an SKS or an AK. Just like when most people picture a .30-30, they see a Win lever gun, not a single shot TC handgun.

Now then, the original topic was on deer hunting "in a pinch." If you are using something in a pinch, chances are you are not buying something specifically for it then handloading for it. "In a pinch," implies that you are using an already existing system and readily available ammo. If you have time to prepare for something buy purchasing a rifle specifically for it, then working up loads for it, that doesn't qualify for "in a pinch." That is a dedicated hunting rifle. Relatively few people have bolt action x39s just sitting around waiting to be pressed into some type of service. More people have an SKS sitting around that, if given an opportunity, could be pressed into service as a hunting rifle "in a pinch."

Therefore, your experiences with the 7.62x39 are an anomaly and nearly completely irrelevant to the subject of this post.

You make some good points re: "in a pinch" however my experiences need to be more well known because people just don't know how good the AK round is in a bolt gun. And it is very, very good. CZ and the rare Ruger and Savage owners know this already, and it's one of the best-kept secrets in budget hunting/shooting guns IMO.

CoalTrain - I agree there are plenty of .223 bolt guns that can shoot with my Savage or a CZ 7.62x39. But even then, the .223 is an inferior everyday hunting round for medium sized game to the 7.62x39 due to underweight bullets. Wounding? Yea, the .223 has that in spades. I'll give you that. It can wound with the best of them. So if developing your tracking skills is high on your list of priorities, by all means reach for the nearest AR. Sorry if that doesn't fit the modern day AR fan narrative, but I've shot too many medium sized game with the .223 to ever be a fan of that caliber for that specific application.

 

[Corn-Picker]

There is also very few bullets that expand reliably below around 2000 fps. So for the level of performance most people associate with the 7.62x39, it is a .31 caliber handgun shooting non-expanding ammunition by the time it reaches 200 yards.

I'll disagree with this a little; cup and core bullets (e.g. Core Lokt) and even some bonded bullets (e.g. Fusion) work just fine at 1800 FPS. I will agree that TSX bullets sometimes behave like FMJ at 1800 FPS.

 

[mshootnit]

My experience is limited to just a few shots on deer and coyotes etc. with 223 and I have not shot deer with 7.62X39 , but have shot deer w 6.8 SPC.
Inside of 220 yds, take your pick, make a good shot.

Outside of 220 yd... get inside of 220 yds

FWIW Mongolian herders, peasants hunt wolves in the trees with old open sights 7.62X39 and whatever they have. If that is not "in a pinch" I dont know what is. And they are successful in surviving and killing the wolf. They hunt in groups when it is time. They hunt when a wolf has been spotted killing livestock.

 

[Newtosavage]

Outside of 220 yd... get inside of 220 yds

Probably the most sound advice on this thread. LOL

 

[CoalTrain49]

My experience is limited to just a few shots on deer and coyotes etc. with 223 and I have not shot deer with 7.62X39 , but have shot deer w 6.8 SPC.
Inside of 220 yds, take your pick, make a good shot.

Outside of 220 yd... get inside of 220 yds

FWIW Mongolian herders, peasants hunt wolves in the trees with old open sights 7.62X39 and whatever they have. If that is not "in a pinch" I dont know what is. And they are successful in surviving and killing the wolf. They hunt in groups when it is time. They hunt when a wolf has been spotted killing livestock.

Good advice. Don't exceed the point blank range of your firearm. It will certainly make you a better hunter.

 

[M1key]

My thoughts...

7.62x39 Hornady SST or SP handload

M

 

[C-grunt]

Out of standard length rifles (16 inch or longer) any type of bullet from these two cartridges will easily take a deer at 150 yards or less if the shooter knows what they are doing. Varmint rounds? Hit them in the neck. Military ball rounds? Shoulder or right behind.

Yeah they aren't as powerful as traditional deer cartridges but people have been killing deer for a long time with less powerful cartridges.

 

[someguy2800]

Of the center fire rifles I own 223 would be my last choice to take deer hunting.

Now let's play what if. Let's say opening morning of deer hunting the electronic lock on my gun safe goes bad. All my guns except my AR15 are inside. Without any hesitation I would load up the AR15 with the toughest bullet I have on hand and head out in the woods.

 

[entropy]

You make some good points re: "in a pinch" however my experiences need to be more well known because people just don't know how good the AK round is in a bolt gun. And it is very, very good. CZ and the rare Ruger and Savage owners know this already, and it's one of the best-kept secrets in budget hunting/shooting guns IMO.

CoalTrain - I agree there are plenty of .223 bolt guns that can shoot with my Savage or a CZ 7.62x39. But even then, the .223 is an inferior everyday hunting round for medium sized game to the 7.62x39 due to underweight bullets. Wounding? Yea, the .223 has that in spades. I'll give you that. It can wound with the best of them. So if developing your tracking skills is high on your list of priorities, by all means reach for the nearest AR. Sorry if that doesn't fit the modern day AR fan narrative, but I've shot too many medium sized game with the .223 to ever be a fan of that caliber for that specific application.

Bullet selection and placement. Actually, reverse that order. Bullet placement and selection. The farthest my son had any of the 15 deer go that he's shot with .223 (11 with a Savage Axis, 4 with a DPMS Sportical) is 50 yards, and that one was at 225 yards. But then I taught him to aim at the aorta, and he's always at least hit both lungs. The bullet used for all these kills? 55 gr. Hornady Vmax. Not the bullet most choose for deer. A couple of those deer he killed with .223 were ones others in his hunting party wounded with bigger calibers, .270 and 12 ga. He tracked them and finished them DRT with his puny little .223.

Someguy 2800, I used to be of the same opinion. .223 was illegal for deer where and when I grew up. I bought my .223 Axis for coyotes. (Sadly, that's still all I've got with it. Last one was during a deer hunt.) But my son's experiences showed me that a good shot can take deer cleanly and ethically with a .223, so I have hunted with it since then, though i still use a Mosin or my Win. 94 for driving/stillhunting.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

My bad. I thought the discussion was about the caliber and not the weapon it was being fired from.

If instead we are arguing which platform is better - in a pinch - for hunting, that's a completely different topic.

Incidentally, the least expensive 7.62x39 ammo I can buy is the "Monarch" brand sold locally by Academy sporting goods for $5.49/box of 20. It features a 123-grain hollow point bullet traveling 2400 fps. at the muzzle from a steel case. Believe it or not, that's what my young friend used from my Savage rifle to shoot 9 consecutive clays at 300 yards, and with only a 2-7x scope. I also used it to drop a 250 lb. boar in its tracks with a perfect head shot between the eyes at 100 yards.

Again, just sharing my actual personal experience here.

I think what could be missed here is the fact that a person can have an incredibly accurate hunting rifle chambered in 7.62x39 and offer it to new shooters with $5.49/box ammo for training, then turn around and handload for it and send that same shooter out with an incredibly effective low-recoiling deer rifle. At least - that's how I use that tool in my toolbox.

That's exactly what I do with my X39 it is shooting 3 round groups at 100 yards less than 1/2 inch. I'm using a .308 diameter 135 grain FTX @ just over 2200fps. A close friends 10 year old son will be using it this year for his first deer.

 

[Corn-Picker]

I just shot a small deer today with my crossbow and I was reminded that, on average, both 223 and 7.62x39 kill a deer a lot faster and more authoritatively than an arrow.

 

[Newtosavage]

I just shot a small deer today with my crossbow and I was reminded that, on average, both 223 and 7.62x39 kill a deer a lot faster and more authoritatively than an arrow.

Sometimes. I'm in my 4th decade of bowhunting and I've seen a well placed arrow put a deer down in less than 3 seconds, some of which never took a step. All depends on shot placement - with any weapon. But for less than ideal shot placement, I'll take the larger, heavier bullet thank you.

 

[Jackal]

People scoff at the .223, but launching a 70gr bullet at 2900fps isnt THAT far behind a .243 80gr at 3300fps...

 

[Catshooter]

Well, you don't specify what rifle. Or if you handload. Assuming you do, and it's bolts, well then.

I own a CZ 527 in x39 and just finished working up it's best load. Now you have to bear in mind that the book max loads for the x39 are built around the SKS/AK guns. The CZ is a much stronger rifle. Read an interesting article by CE Harris (if I recall correctly) that got me started down this road.

Anyway, that little tiny 527, with zero pressure signs will throw a Hornady 123 soft point at 2,750 fps and group 'em into just about an inch at 100.

So obviously, I'd take the x39.


Cat

 

[Newtosavage]

Cat, what powder you running? I can't stuff enough RL-7 in my Lapua brass to get anywhere close to 2700 fps with a 123.

 

[Catshooter]

Accurate Arms 1680.


Cat

 

[hq]

Accurate Arms 1680.

Any chance of revealing the specifics (brass, primer, load, COL etc.), even in PM if you're wary of publishing the data on a public forum? 2750fps is really impressive from a 18½" barrel. I won't blow myself up, I promise.

 

[Catshooter]

I'm using once fired Fiocci (sp?), Winchester large rifle primers, the COL is controlled by my crimping the round in the bullet's cannelure. I started with the max book load for AA 1680 and worked up from there in 1/2 grain increments. Boring rifle, really. It shoots inch to inch and a half groups with whatever amount of powder I'd stuff in it. I settled on a load that was a 1/2 grain from the top I tested. Still no pressure signs but I was running out of case room and I was happy with 2750.

Pretty sure you can't blow up the rifle with 1680 as you would run out of case volume before you run into pressure trouble. At least in my two CZs. There isn't any magic formula, you're just moving from about 40,000 psi to about 50,000.

Good luck. They are terrific rifles.


Cat

 

[someguy2800]

1680 is a neat powder for this case capacity cartridge. I think the new CFE black will also be a great powder for the x39

 

[Newtosavage]

Accurate Arms 1680.


Cat

Thanks. I'll have to give that a try. I'm loading Lapua brass in a Savage model 10. I don't think there is any way I could get enough powder that little case to cause an overpressure situation. I have never seen a primer that didn't look brand new, even with compressed loads of RL-7

My Savage is pretty boring in this caliber too. Puts any bullet I load, from 123 to 160 grains, into basically the same group at 100 yards and routinely prints .7's and .8's. Great for head shots on does though.

Been reading good things about the CFE Black too and may try that.

Only trouble is I've found a killer load for my .308 that uses RL-7 and Nosler BT 125's, so that RL-7 and NBT 125's do double duty in two of my rifles now. Very handy.

 

[someguy2800]

Reloader 7 in 308 Winchester? That's an interesting combo. That's my favorite powder in my 444. I tried it in 357 maximum but it was too slow. Plus it's hard to get, at least for me.