The Big Heller Decision Discussion Thread - AFFIRMED 2ND AS INDIVIDUAL RIGHT

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considering it took 232 years for SCOTUS to even acknowledge the 2nd as an individual right

It did not take that long for them to acknowledge it, because that was never even a question up for debate until antis made it one in more recent times.
It was taken for granted for most of America's history that is was definately an individual right so nobody had to rule otherwise.

Does the court have to rule that the first Amendment is an individual right? Only when enough people start saying it only applies to journalists, who need to be able to get the story out to the people, and such an argument makes it to the supreme court. ;)
 
Soybomb said:
One... A win is a win, isn't it? One point or a thousand, we still got what we wanted; the 2nd identifies an individual right. No?
I find it unsettling that the final word in US law just barely understands some very simple words that are of great importance. I'd like to feel that our bill of rights isn't on such dangerous ground. Further, this is the first of many court cases that will likely have to reach them on the path toward restoration of the 2nd amendment. If we were able to eek out such a small margin to simply agree that the 2nd amendment is an individual right, what does that say of how hard it will be to win future cases that are more controversial.

Okay, folks... think on this a second:

If it weren't a fact of life that some people are always "not going to see things your way", and will always be trying to take your rights away... and if the founding fathers of this country didn't see and understand this very clearly... we'd have no need at all for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and they wouldn't exist.

However, it is, they did, they do... and we won. ( Which is as it should be, in my opinion. :p )

So, for me at least, a win of 5 to 4 is just grand. After all, it was a fight won not lost, and one that somebody apparently knew we'd be fighting... and prepared the way for us.

Only a fool would ask for better than that.


J.C.
 
Seminole,

I am talking about your home. The opinion states that sensitive areas such as schools and government offices could apply.

My home could be in New Orleans and it could be a sensitive area, but if this ruling did one thing and one thing only it says that a person has a right to have a gun to defend one's self in one's home.
 
We're all missing the most important points:

1) This ruling is a Blackstonian "preexisting" right to self-defense. SCOTUS ruled about "in the home", but only because of the case before them. Not even Brady can argue that self-defense is moot outside of the home (well, they probably will, but it's silly). The logical (IMHO) extension is that open carry will have to be legal and licensing for concealed is still regulated. I am not pleased by that, but it does lead to my next point...

2) Scalia himself noted that he expects challenges to historically sensitive areas.

Got to run,

Jackie Treehorn
 
We're all missing the most important points:

1) This ruling is a Blackstonian "preexisting" right to self-defense. SCOTUS ruled about "in the home", but only because of the case before them. Not even Brady can argue that self-defense is moot outside of the home (well, they probably will, but it's silly). The logical (IMHO) extension is that open carry will have to be legal and licensing for concealed is still regulated. I am not pleased by that, but it does lead to my next point...

2) Scalia himself noted that he expects challenges to historically sensitive areas.

Got to run,

Jackie Treehorn




If we have to apply for Concealed Carry, but can freely open carry, I'm ok with that.


.
 
You know, I guess I'm still sort of in a "state of shock" that 4 of the 5 Justices essentially felt that WE have no RIGHT to keep and bear arms - seperate from a military purpose. I've read the entire opinion and that's what this seems to boil down to. Am I missing something? I still can't believe that! :uhoh: I guess it's sort of like one of those "I could have died" sort of feelings that has crept upon me.....:eek: You know, like narrowly escaping a bad car wreck or something......
 
Concealed carry has historically been an indication of criminal intent. Licensing that, for the purpose of the gov't saying "yes, we know he's doing this, it's OK, he's not a criminal" and thus eliminating presumptive evidence of criminal intent, is classically accepted.

I know, you & I disagree with such a view, but eliminating licensed CCW may prove the most difficult task. I expect the best we'll do there is "prompt shall-issue"; if you're in a bigger hurry to be armed, you could still carry openly.
 
Highlighted quote from the SCOTUS blog: "The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity."

This may have been a bit of a slip, given Miller; it looks like it should have been "also applied."
 
Zoogster said:
It did not take that long for them to acknowledge it, because that was never even a question up for debate until antis made it one in more recent times.
It was taken for granted for most of America's history that is was definately an individual right so nobody had to rule otherwise.

It was taken for granted by all of us as well up to the point that it made it to the SCOTUS, at which time it could've gone either way. The score of the vote should show us how tenuous our rights are when we take them for granted, for 232 years or 232 minutes. We, as a society, are not very vigilant about overseeing our government anymore, and that almost cost us the 2nd Amendment, which, for all intents and purposes, would've cost us The Constitution itself. I'm frankly amazed that a lot of gun owners/enthusiasts are taking the close vote so lightly.

Regardless, it absolutely did take 232 years to acknowledge the individual right from the bench of the SCOTUS. The only way to argue otherwise is to cite the ruling prior to this one that shows their acknowledgment. My understanding is that no such citation is possible because no acknowledgment from the SCOTUS ever existed before a couple of days ago.

Does the court have to rule that the first Amendment is an individual right?

Yes, and they already have ruled that it isn't. Can you, as an individual, buy airtime on TV to campaign for a presidential candidate by name 60 days before a primary or 30 days before a general election? No, you can't, thanks to McCain/Feingold and thanks to a ruling by the SCOTUS that declares the bill is constitutional. You can't do it as an individual or in concert with any organized group. If that's not squelching free speech, I don't know what might be construed as such.

Only when enough people start saying it only applies to journalists, who need to be able to get the story out to the people, and such an argument makes it to the supreme court.

See above, and add to it that only journalists are allowed to opine about presidential candidates by name during the time-frame mentioned under McCain/Feingold. No TV newscaster, no print media and no radio media are precluded from airing/printing anything about anyone at anytime, only you and the political groups you associate yourself with are precluded from such.

Oh, and no license is even available or allowed that overrides McCain/Feingold restrictions on free speech, so the example you offer is an even worse infringement than the restrictions on access to a God-given right as laid out in the Heller ruling.

Seekerrr
 
If it weren't a fact of life that some people are always "not going to see things your way", and will always be trying to take your rights away... and if the founding fathers of this country didn't see and understand this very clearly... we'd have no need at all for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and they wouldn't exist.

However, it is, they did, they do... and we won. ( Which is as it should be, in my opinion. )

"The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
"Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrants." - James Madison

I don't know how I can say it better than that. The founding fathers gave us a great gift in the Constitution, but they by no means expected us just to sit back, be complacent and rely on the Government to preserve our rights.

Have you read the dissenting opinions? Have you contemplated what your world would be like now had one guy, Kennedy "gotten up on the wrong side of the bed" as others have put it? As I read their dissent, they have the right to ban the most common self-defense tool (and by extension any other someday) if they so choose. If that's not the view of a tyrannical government, I don't know what is. I think 99% of the founding fathers would be shocked by the four dissenting votes. Actually, they anticipated tyrants in Government - they would just be shaking their heads at how right they were.

So, for me at least, a win of 5 to 4 is just grand. After all, it was a fight won not lost, and one that somebody apparently knew we'd be fighting... and prepared the way for us.

As I understand my constitutional history, Amendment 2A was nearly omitted because many regarded it as obvious. America had just revolted against a tyrannical government - it would be natural for them to think such an inalienable right is "obvious." Yet, several hundred years later, the highest court in the land came within a whisker of deciding what was so obvious then is not so obvious now.

The win is just grand with me, but the 5-4 vote isn't. It's a sign of how complacent we've become in surrendering our rights to tyrants. The DC law was on the books for decades, after all. The 5-4 vote is a warning and a wake-up call to me. A warning not to just sit back and be complacent about a win. After all, not to take away from all the heroic efforts of those who made it happen, but this decision really just confirmed an initial portion of what was obvious to begin with. There is much more to do, and now is no time for complacency.

Only a fool would ask for better than that.

Not sure what you meant by this, but if asking that my inalienable rights not be regarded as so casually revokable by nearly half of the most powerful people in government makes me a fool, I consider myself in good historical company.

Thomas Jefferson's prediction: "The natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield."

"A small leak can sink a great ship." - Benjamin Franklin

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

I am motivated to make sure these types of tyrants have less influence rather than more. At 9-0, color me complacent...at 5-4 color me alarmed, awake, and asking for better.
 
If it weren't a fact of life that some people are always "not going to see things your way", and will always be trying to take your rights away... and if the founding fathers of this country didn't see and understand this very clearly... we'd have no need at all for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and they wouldn't exist.

However, it is, they did, they do... and we won. ( Which is as it should be, in my opinion. )
"The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
"Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrants." - James Madison

I don't know how I can say it better than that. The founding fathers gave us a great gift in the Constitution, but they by no means expected us just to sit back, be complacent and rely on the Government to preserve our rights.

Have you read the dissenting opinions? Have you contemplated what your world would be like now had one guy, Kennedy "gotten up on the wrong side of the bed" as others have put it? As I read their dissent, they have the right to ban the most common self-defense tool (and by extension any other someday) if they so choose. If that's not the view of a tyrannical government, I don't know what is. I think 99% of the founding fathers would be shocked by the four dissenting votes. Actually, they anticipated tyrants in Government - they would just be shaking their heads at how right they were.

So, for me at least, a win of 5 to 4 is just grand. After all, it was a fight won not lost, and one that somebody apparently knew we'd be fighting... and prepared the way for us.
As I understand my constitutional history, Amendment 2A was nearly omitted because many regarded it as obvious. America had just revolted against a tyrannical government - it would be natural for them to think such an inalienable right is "obvious." Yet, several hundred years later, the highest court in the land came within a whisker of deciding what was so obvious then is not so obvious now.

The win is just grand with me, but the 5-4 vote isn't. It's a sign of how complacent we've become in surrendering our rights to tyrants. The DC law was on the books for decades, after all. The 5-4 vote is a warning and a wake-up call to me. A warning not to just sit back and be complacent about a win. After all, not to take away from all the heroic efforts of those who made it happen, but this decision really just confirmed an initial portion of what was obvious to begin with. There is much more to do, and now is no time for complacency.

Only a fool would ask for better than that.
Not sure what you meant by this, but if asking that my inalienable rights not be regarded as so casually revokable by nearly half of the most powerful people in government makes me a fool, I consider myself in good historical company.

Thomas Jefferson's prediction: "The natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield."

"A small leak can sink a great ship." - Benjamin Franklin

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

I am motivated to make sure these types of tyrants have less influence rather than more. At 9-0, color me complacent...at 5-4 color me alarmed, awake, and asking for better.

Stellar post! All I can say is......
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Has anyone suggested bringing back the DC Personal Protection Act as some kind of "Motor Voter" law to enforce the "not arbitrary or capricious" part of Heller?
 
I do believe Antonin Scalia, along with the other four concurring justices, have missed a big one in US v. Miller. Nowhere in the Constitution is there any requirement that an arm must meet some means test, or suitability requirements, to be eligible for militia use. In order to meet the assumed ability for the militia to suffice as the force to defend the country in lieu of a standing army, as was the sentiment of the period the amendment was adopted, the arms in common use had to be arms that would have been required to be of use in a standing army if that standing army was to be relied upon to defend the country. Otherwise, Scalia's interpretation of "arms in common use at the time" being simply the arms a civilian might have in use for deer or squirrel hunting, or self defense, would leave the militia grossly underarmed in comparison to the arms in the possession of the average armies of foreign nations - some we actually fought.

I cannot concur with Scalia and the other four concurring Justices in this matter. If the current Court is to use Miller in this matter, it must use Miller as it was written, and not their own "interpretation", meaning what they wish Miller to say. Clearly, though unconstitutional on its face, the Court in Miller "assumed" that "arms to be protected" by the Second Amendment must have some "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia", that militia subject to be called upon to defend the country as in Article I Section 8, Clause 15:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Deer rifles and squirrel guns can be useful to that end, but are far from any level of competition with the most likely superior and far more destructive arms an invading army is sure to bring(read as "in common use"). To be able to mount a defense and actually defeat an invading army, we must have arms that will kill people - lots of them - and break things - big and POWERFUL things. I think the Justices in Miller knew this and I believe Justices Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, Roberts, and Alito know this as well, but decided to use their power in an inordinate fashion to preserve current law rather than abide the Constitution, use common sense, and clear the path for We the People to defend ourselves and our country with more than our deer rifles, squirrel guns, shotguns, and bodies piled high for cannon fodder. These people risk our lives, our sovereignty, and the security of our land for a status quo that is nothing more than a golden path for our enemies to exact our destruction.

Scalia and the four concurring Justices also lean too heavily upon Miller as they claim Justice Stevens did in his dissent. Yes, leaned on it and in an aspect abhorrent to the Second Amendment. By claiming the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection, via a fabricated caveat - a caveat not even suggested in the Second Amendment - to justify the interpolation of their alternate definition of "in common use" into Miller's text, so they might say any arm in common use by the general populace is the subject of the Second Amendment and not necessarily arms in common use by military. Truth is, the Second Amendment doesn't include or exclude any specific class of arms. The Second Amendment uses the unmodified word "arms" which covers all weapons of offense and armour of defense. Government is forbidden to infringe our right to keep and bear arms. Period. If you single out any particular class of arms and forbid the people to keep and bear them simply by saying the Second Amendment doesn't protect that class of arms, it's an out and out lie, and government has infringed our right to keep and bear that class of arms. I see no difference in this action by the Court - assuming a class of arms can be exempted from the protections of the Second Amendment - and Mayor Fenty and the DC City Council banning a whole class of arms. I also find it to be blatantly hypocritical for the Court to strike down a law on the same grounds it uses to uphold other nearly identical law.

In the light of needing at least five Justices to accomplish what we have gained from Heller, I do realize compromises had to be made. I would have preferred the Court ignore the issues beyond the immediate Heller questions, but I believe these compromises had to be made to garner the swing vote. And, I'll admit I am glad the strongest positive result was sought - as evinced by the 5-4 ruling as opposed to what a 6-3, or 7-2 or larger ruling would have cost.

This, though, I find encouraging. The Fab Five concurred on the following:

Miller stands only for the proposition that the
Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends
only to certain types of weapons.


(Heller, Page 50, last sentence in the middle paragraph)​

They called it a proposition. Not fact, mind you, but a proposition. Does this contradict what was used in this ruling and its dicta? I believe so.

This from Page 64 I like as well:

We are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this
country, and we take seriously the concerns raised by the
many amici who believe that prohibition of handgun
ownership is a solution. The Constitution leaves the
District of Columbia a variety of tools for combating that
problem,
including some measures regulating handguns,
see supra, at 54–55, and n. 26. But the enshrinement of
constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy
choices off the table.


(Bolding is mine.)​

"The Constitution leaves the District of Columbia a variety of tools for combating that problem, ..." Eh, like keeping violent criminals locked up, maybe? The insane institutionalized? Guardians(read parents) for the immature? Maybe that's too much common sense for Mayor Fenty and company.

Woody
 
ConstitutionCowboy: the experience of the Croatians in Yugoslavia showed that hunting rifles were enough to defeat a modern army, when wielded by patriots with courage and discipline. So it's possible. But you're right that I want an M-16 if I have a choice.
 
the experience of the Croatians in Yugoslavia showed that hunting rifles were enough to defeat a modern army, when wielded by patriots with courage and discipline.

It turns out that your assertion is patently false:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisans_(Yugoslavia)


The Second Amendment basically relates to wartime combat action.

The reality of the matter is that any modern day force armed almost exclusively with rifles, shotguns, carbines, and handguns will be sorely outgunned and put at a horrendous disadvantage.
 
Your link is to an article that does not exist. At any rate, I would like a little more than a wikipedia article, if one existed.

Here's an eyewitness account of the Croatians using hunting rifles:

http://photoarts.com/haviv/bosnia/test.html

And why so aggressive? Have I offended you personally in some way? Why are you using such strong language?
 
Hopefully this will work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisans_(Yugoslavia)

Note that they had a navy, air force, and assistance from the Allies.

I didn't intend to come across as acerbic.

Did you really mean to suggest that some ragtag band of volunteers armed with hunting rifles succeeded in cowing the Axis into submission?
 
I cannot concur with Scalia and the other four concurring Justices in this matter. If the current Court is to use Miller in this matter, it must use Miller as it was written, and not their own "interpretation", meaning what they wish Miller to say. Clearly, though unconstitutional on its face, the Court in Miller "assumed" that "arms to be protected" by the Second Amendment must have some "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia", that militia subject to be called upon to defend the country as in Article I Section 8, Clause 15:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

I don't think Scalia reinterpreted the "common use" of Miller. It still stands as potentially meaning arms in common use by the military. I don't see how Scalia changed that. Granted, he added some unsettling language about Miller as has been pointed out, but nothing binding that I can see - just general language that that the Government has the ability to restrict some things as Miller already decided. Scalia had no choice - Kennedy had to be brought on board. Scalia can't singlehandedly overturn Miller this time either, because that's not what the case was about.

The Miller precedent was dangerous, imo, because there was nothing in that case about whether a shotgun could be used for self-defense as another test of what the Government could not ban. Taken at face value, the Miller test could ban anything not in common military use, implying that 2A is only about the militia. Scalia has effectively removed that potential argument in Heller. Scalia completely dismantled Breyer's wrong argument that he was overturning Miller, while stealthily removing one of the potentially bad aspects of Miller - that the meaning of 2A is limited to just the militia argument. Scalia mentioned this in a 1997 court case and has no doubt thought about it a lot:

Our most recent treatment of the Second Amendment occurred in United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), in which we reversed the District Court's invalidation of the National Firearms Act, enacted in 1934. In Miller, we determined that the Second Amendment did not guarantee a citizen's right to possess a sawed off shotgun because that weapon had not been shown to be "ordinary military equipment" that could "contribute to the common defense." Id., at 178. The Court did not, however, attempt to define, or otherwise construe, the substantive right protected by the Second Amendment.

Scalia laid the groundwork for expanding the Miller use test to self-defense while still retaining the option to keep the militia test part of it. These are tests of what the government cannot restrict, rather than what they can, and they are not limited to those purposes either. What seems to be a taboo subject in cases up to this point is the government tyranny aspect of it. What arms are necessary to the security of a free state as protection from it's own government? The founders had this use in mind, too. The government can always make the case that they will keep stockpiles and the capability to train the militia with "uncommon" machine guns, etc if and when Congress calls the militia. To defeat this argument, you have to establish that the militia is something more than just a tool of Congress.

Scalia locked in 2A as an individual right, with the potential to have teeth, laying the groundwork for these future battles. He really did do an outstanding job with what he had, considering the dissent. As I reread the dissent, I come to the conclusion that they advocated an individual right that can be chipped away at the whim of Congress. The consensus here is that Steven's dissent articulated no right at all:

http://volokh.com/posts/1214695086.shtml
 
My feeling is, I hope this case will chip away at the false dichotomy between militia activities and self-defense activities. Defense of one's home is the elementary militia activity. If the danger was from a band of brigands rather than a lone burglar, of course, you'd need to call your neighbors, but hey, you'd already been organized, armed, and disciplined alongside them, as well as being trained by your state in accordance with Federal guidelines. And if the threat were really big the state-appointed militia officers would do their duties. Really, the original concept of the militia is one of the most beautiful parts of the early Republic, tying able-bodied ordinary citizens into the execution of what are now "professionals-only" functions: the maintenance of security and order.

DC's gun law prohibited the District from having a militia plain and simple, so to the degree that DC is a state their laws even violated the opening language of the Second. Of course, it's not a state, but I'm no expert on the rights of US citizens who are residents of non-states; I have no idea how the founders conceived of the District in terms of things like Madison's contention in The Federalist that militia officers must be appointed by the states.

EDIT: Upon reading the decision, I have to say:
Scalia > Stevens
 
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Groovski

My main objection to the line of "thought(s)" on Miller is the misconstrual of what the Court truly said in Miller. Surely it is understood by these nine that the Court in Miller pulled the "militia use" caveat out of the ether, and that The Fab Four along with the switch-hitter also pulled the alternate, and as totally irrelevant, definition of "in common use" out of the ether as well.

It may be that this addition of "in common use" - meaning in common use by Joe and Joy Average - to the definition of "in common use" by the militia that has stood since 1939, is just the ambiguity we need in order that: "has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia" comes before the court in the future for -well - lets call it "Clarity". It may turn out to be the fly in the ointment to do away with Miller. When you can pull two meanings out of the same context, the context is untenable.

I wish Scalia had ended it right here and now. If he only needed himself, Thomas, Roberts, and Alito, he probably would have done just that.

This "use test" implicated by either the need for a militia use qualification or non-militia use - by Joe and Joy Average for hunting, target, and self defense - as a means test to meet that ethereal caveat for an arm to qualify as an arm that would be considered as an arm - - - Damn. It's so convoluted that there is no way for it to make sense in one sentence. If it could be made to make sense in one sentence, it would qualify as a complete and unambiguous thought. A complete and unambiguous statement.

What we need is for these or ANY test to go away. There IS no test in the Second Amendment. (That's a complete and unambiguous statement.) "..., (T)he right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," is a complete and unambiguous statement. The Second Amendment cannot be made to say anything different, or even be open for interpretation or be construed WITHOUT INTERPOLATION! (That means adding a word or some text to alter it or open it up to ambiguity.)

In order to "assume" there is a test, or imply that some arms might not be under the blanket of the Second Amendment, or simply not meant to be kept and borne by the people, the word "arms" must be modified by an adjective such as "dangerous", or "too big", or "crew served". Even simply making the statement that the Second Amendment doesn't say which arms are covered is an implied interpolation. No adjective is there, no test is there, and there is nothing unambiguous about the word "arms" and its definition.

Let us hope you are right about Scalia laying the groundwork for the Court to delve into Miller, and that I'm right about the path being laid for that pesky and bogus means test to disappear.

And what you said here:

Groovski said:
... What seems to be a taboo subject in cases up to this point is the government tyranny aspect of it. What arms are necessary to the security of a free state as protection from it's own government? The founders had this use in mind, too. The government can always make the case that they will keep stockpiles and the capability to train the militia with "uncommon" machine guns, etc if and when Congress calls the militia. To defeat this argument, you have to establish that the militia is something more than just a tool of Congress.

They do know this, of that I'm sure. I'm afraid we'll have to choke it out of them before they'll put it on paper, though. We should never be less armed than those in government. That is the only incentive those in government have to assure revolution never becomes necessary. If you can disarm the people, you can prevent revolution - well, maybe - but you cannot tyrannize a sufficiently(read equally or better) armed populace. That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the reason for the Second Amendment's protection of our Right to Keep and bear Arms - yes, the unmodified, unqualified, unlimited and therefore entire gamut of arms.

Woody

Our government was designed by our Founding Fathers to fit within the framework of our rights and not vise versa. Any other "interpretation" of the Constitution is either through ignorance or is deliberately subversive. B.E. Wood
 
Lookit. That $#!%$#&^ traitor Stevens is 88 or 89 years old. And the Clinton appointee Ginsberg is getting pretty ancient too; thank all that is holy.

So what's done is done - Now it's all about SCOTUS appointees and that means the *Presidency* - So let's get busy defeating the great gun-banner Obama in Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Virginia, Ohio, Wisconsin, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, etc.!!! This will take us from WEAK 5-4 indiv. right interpretation, to potentially a STRONG 7-2, with a declaration of fundamentalness and incorporation and a high-intermediate or strict scrutiny.

Let's all start by giving to the Nader campaign! :)
 
Lookit. That $#!%$#&^ traitor Stevens is 88 or 89 years old. And the Clinton appointee Ginsberg is getting pretty ancient too; thank all that is holy.

So what's done is done - Now it's all about SCOTUS appointees and that means the *Presidency* - So let's get busy defeating the great gun-banner Obama in Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Virginia, Ohio, Wisconsin, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, etc.!!! This will take us from WEAK 5-4 indiv. right interpretation, to potentially a STRONG 7-2, with a declaration of fundamentalness and incorporation and a high-intermediate or strict scrutiny.

Let's all start by giving to the Nader campaign!

I previously said you were knowledgeable.
Now you've proven it.
 
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