The Double Ball load.

[Ugly Sauce]

I have this old gun, had it forever, a Miroku "Zuave" or replica 1863 Remington Contract Rifle.

Actually I have two, with three digit serial numbers almost touching.

Anyhow, both guns have "lumpy" bores. Like the reamer was started and stopped repeatedly. Rifling is cut nicely. Neither shoot worth a darn. Plagued by flyers.

Rifle #1 I made into a "canoe gun". I carry it sometimes for close range bear and moose protection. She may be lumpy, she might not be accurate over 50 yards, but she sure is reliable. I've been loading it with a double ball load, and the odd thing is that it seems to shoot better than with either a slug or a single ball. The super odd thing, to me, is that those two balls do not spread much. At 25 yards they will almost be touching, at 35 yards maybe 3/4" spread. Don't know what they do after that.

My load is 80 grains of 3g or 2fg Goex, a felt wad that has been dipped in melted bee's wax over the powder, patched ball, then another wax wad, and another patched ball over that. Wax wad between the balls.

My question is, anyone out there shooting double ball loads, or have in the past, and what was your experience with them as far as spread and accuracy?

TIA

 

[skfullen]

I don't have any advice or experience to share, but I think that's a great idea to load double balls - that's nothing to sneeze at!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

At close range I figure it would leave a mark.

 

[troy fairweather]

I've done it messing around, some pretty good groups out to 30ish yards I've shot them. Can't us the double load for hunting so I've never used it on game.

 

[skfullen]

I think it's a great way to load for "emergency" or unexpected encounters.

I'd call it the Jeremiah Johnson Assault Muzzle-Loader!

Any idea of FPS on the double ball load?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I've done it messing around, some pretty good groups out to 30ish yards I've shot them. Can't us the double load for hunting so I've never used it on game.

Right, would not consider it for hunting, but I like the idea of it for a close range defense load against bears, moose, or any other critter that might want to bite, claw, or stomp me. !!!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I think it's a great way to load for "emergency" or unexpected encounters.

I'd call it the Jeremiah Johnson Assault Muzzle-Loader!

Any idea of FPS on the double ball load?

Good question. I'd assume the same FPS, or close, to a single ball load with the same amount of powder, but I don' know what kind of velocity that short "canoe gun" barrel produces. Right now I don't remember how long that barrel even is. 25" maybe.

 

[The old gunsmith]

I've done double balls and buck & ball in smooth bores but never tried it with a rifle. On smoothies, it does drop the velocity quite a bit but I don't remember exactly how much. It was several years ago when I shot some over the chronograph.
Are you patching both balls? On the smooth bores, I loaded the balls bare and used a wad of tow to hold everything in place.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I've done double balls and buck & ball in smooth bores but never tried it with a rifle. On smoothies, it does drop the velocity quite a bit but I don't remember exactly how much. It was several years ago when I shot some over the chronograph.
Are you patching both balls? On the smooth bores, I loaded the balls bare and used a wad of tow to hold everything in place.

Yes, patching both balls.

 

[J-Bar]

Kinda like one stock car drafting behind the other at high speed…cool!!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Kinda like one stock car drafting behind the other at high speed…cool!!

Well kind of. !!! At 25 yards or less they are starting to separate. Need to do more shooting with them, seems like I did get what looked like a single hole at 25, at first I thought one ball had gone flying, but on close examination I could tell it wasn't a single ball strike. At around 30 or so I usually get "snake eyes". I think the real mystery is what they do at 50 yards, and that's what I'm going to try next.

 

[PapaG]

Not going to get near single ball velocity with double ball and same amount of powder. Just plain don't compute. Like putting a minie in my Hawken instead of a round ball. Lost a couple hundred fps.
I've done it in 30, 40, and 45 cal round ball guns and most hit within inches out to fifty yards. How many inches wasn't predictable.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Good info. My assumption was that double and single ball loads would be close in FPS. I stand corrected! Well I was thinking about adding ten or so grains to the load anyhow, I shall try that.

 

[usaral63]

Been a few years but I fooled around with double balls in my Ithaca Hawken .54...............My experience to 50 and beyond was that one ball was to the point of aim, one somewhere around it......spread varied by distance. Used patched home cast w/.010 ticking. TC lube. Loads varied from a 120 high to about 70 on the low side.......................Just be damn SURE that you have one ball seated on that charge and the other seated on the first!!!

Never did kill a deer with that load, but I would not hesitate to put it to use were I to pick up that rifle again...........I have no doubt it'd perform well.

By way of explanation as to ceasing use of the Hawken, it's simply that I acquired one of Pedersoli's doubles in .50 and that has become my go do piece.

By the way, none of my experimenting involved other that Goex 2 or 3 F..........still does for that matter.


Try those doubles, you'll liike 'em.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Just be damn SURE that you have one ball seated on that charge and the other seated on the first!!!

Oh yeah, I'll tell a little story about that. When I first tried the double ball, I seated the first ball on the powder. Then I rammed the second down. For some reason I left my range rod in the barrel, maybe to fish out my caps or something, and I look over, the range rod is creeping slowly UP the barrel. !!!!! The compressed air was forcing the ball back up! So from that I learned to start the first, and then seat the second on the first at the muzzle end of the barrel, then ram both down.

If that had not happened, had I removed the rod, the second ball would have been six or seven inches ahead of the one on the powder when I pulled the trigger.

 

[paul harm]

That same thing happened to my neighbor with his custom, homemade 72 cal Bill Large barreled " Hawken ". He was loading with the hammer down so any air trapped had no where to go. He changed his loading procedure.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I bet. Half cock is a better way to go!!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Right, would not consider it for hunting, but I like the idea of it for a close range defense load against bears, moose, or any other critter that might want to bite, claw, or stomp me. !!!

You might find it not legal for hunting, depending on the game.
Thompson Center once-upon-a-time published double ball data for the .45 caliber version of their Hawken. That information was soon dropped from the manual.
A Double ball I've been told is the old "loaded for bear" loading, and I think those doing that would up the charge just a tiny bit to try to compensate for launching 2x the normal mass. I've tried the double ball on several rifled pieces, all with reduced loads, just to see impacts. The pair of projectiles do tend to fly rather near each other out to 25 yrads. From 25-50 is when they deviate, and you don't know how far you can shoot until you try a load in a particular rifle.

LD

 

[MEHavey]

I have this old gun, had it forever, a Miroku "Zuave" or replica 1863 Remington Contract Rifle.
... both guns have "lumpy" bores. Like the reamer was started and stopped repeatedly

This is a Miroku gun -- finished that bad ?
OOC: What Minnie bullets/loads did you try ?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

This is a Miroku gun -- finished that bad ?
OOC: What Minnie bullets/loads did you try ?

Yep. I believe those were some of the first Miroku guns produced. They are both have very low, three digit serial numbers. I've had the one rifle for a very long time, and have tried many different loads, bullets, balls, patches, lubes, etc. Sometimes they will shoot "okay", or minute of deer at 75 yards, but both guns are prone to flyers. They might possibly shoot with standard loads of around 60 grains or less, but I have no interest in target loads, I've always used the rifle for hunting, and did all my shooting with it with loads in the 80 to 100 grain range. But I never did get a shot at anything with it, which is probably a good thing.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

You might find it not legal for hunting, depending on the game.
Thompson Center once-upon-a-time published double ball data for the .45 caliber version of their Hawken. That information was soon dropped from the manual.
A Double ball I've been told is the old "loaded for bear" loading, and I think those doing that would up the charge just a tiny bit to try to compensate for launching 2x the normal mass. I've tried the double ball on several rifled pieces, all with reduced loads, just to see impacts. The pair of projectiles do tend to fly rather near each other out to 25 yrads. From 25-50 is when they deviate, and you don't know how far you can shoot until you try a load in a particular rifle.

LD

No I would not hunt with it, or the other one I have, single or double ball. It is not trustworthy at 100 yards. Strictly for bear and moose protection. A hiking gun. These days I have the Jeager, the 1861, and a TC Hawken to hunt with.

Now the other one I picked up a couple years ago, I'm so tempted to see if Hoyt would ream that lumpy barrel out and rifle it for round ball. If he could take it out to .62", same as my Jeager, that would be very cool.

Next time I shoot the shorty, I'll up the charge and shoot it out to 50 paces, and see what she does. At 30 yards they (them balls) are still very close together, so I'm very curious. And of course I would not open fire on either a moose or bear at 50 yards, I'd have to be positive that they meant to scratch or bite me.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Hmm, I didn't know Moose would scratch or bite, glad I'm in a place now where Moose aren't.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Hmm, I didn't know Moose would scratch or bite, glad I'm in a place now where Moose aren't.

Yah, moose in the rut, or mother moose with a calf can be quite dangerous. More people killed by moose than bears. Where I live the moose have increased to where they is all over the place. Can't hunt them (very limited number of moose permits per year, and none in the GMU I live in). They don't scratch or bite, but can quickly stomp you to death. Last year I had a mother moose with an older calf start to approach me aggressively. I turned around and walked away, that satisfied her. But yeah, have them on the property often, they just recently ate all the buds off my willow bushes, (DANG IT!!!) and I see them on the state land all the time. Dang. Moose in the backyard, bears and wolves up North, I need me a sawed off .600 Nitro double rifle.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I used to live in Montana, saw a news story a long time ago where a fellow driving a small car over Skalkaho pass had his car rearranged by an angry moose, seems it took exception to having the horn blasted at it. Also had one approach a little too close at a place called Mud Lake. Some outta state folks little yappy dog distracted it away from my brother and I. Was a little nervous on that particular day.

 

[J-Bar]

A Double ball I've been told is the old "loaded for bear" loading, and I think those doing that would up the charge just a tiny bit to try to compensate for launching 2x the normal mass.

LD

“Compensating” for more mass by increasing the powder charge can be dangerous. Look at any table of reloading recipes and you will see that as bullet weight goes up, maximum powder charge goes DOWN. The increased inertia of more projectile mass increases pressure by itself, without using more powder.

Now you are probably correct that some shooters in bygone times tried more powder under a double ball load, and I am sure you are knowledgeable enough not to do it yourself. Just trying to clarify that you were making a historical observation, not recommending the practice.