The flip side of ultra-light is ultra-dead

[Drizzt]

People get hurt walking down a perfectly level sidewalk.

yep. last December I was walking on a nice level trail in broad daylight, stumbled over who knows what, fell and broke my elbow. ...and regardless of what some people have asked me, I was completely sober at the time.

 

[KriegHund]

Instead of hauling a tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, stove, fuel and extra food, they just hustle and make it back to shelter in a day.

Wheres the fun in that?
I dont see any.

Anywho, i always carry a small pack with matches, water tabs, space blanket, poncho, mirror, lighter, small flashlight, whistle a small thing of tape, an extra AAA battery for my light, and a few feet of .20g galvanized wire.

Whistles are often overlooked, yet they carry very much farther than a yell. (and a decent sized medpack)

*edit* and i can see doing without a sleeping pad. But there are some bare neccesitys. Fire is one of them...

When i first started hiking i carried 3 liters of water on a belt! Boy did i learn fast! Now i just carry 1 liter and a bunch of water tablets.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

What most of the safty nazis forget is that when you're deep in the backcountry, any sort of major injury is Really Bad News. 100 lbs of gear won't change that. Unless you can fit an amubulance and EMT crew in your pack...

Calling for a rescue is usually all you can do if you snap an ankle or a leg. So bring the means to call for help, and a little bit of food and water to last you 'till they find you. Maybe some minimal shelter.

Beyond that, there isn't much else you need. Nor is there much that would help.

Priority #1 should always be Don't Get Hurt. The guy listed in the article isn't being flip, he's being sensible.

 

[Cosmoline]

May 12, 1986 is a day to remember for folks deciding to take a "quick hike" with minimal equipment.

On that day a group of students and a teacher from a high school near mine took off on a day trip to climb Mt. Hood from Timberline. It's a very civilized mountain and the second most climbed in the world after Mt. Fuji. People are all over it year round, esp. the west side. A blizzard suddenly developed. About half the group managed to make it out. Eight students and the teacher leading the group got lost in the storm, with NO EQUIPMENT and NO SUPPLIES wearing BLUE JEANS!! They made a snow cave that night but by the time the weather cleared and they were found only two students were still clinging to life. They suffered massive frostbite damage. The others died.

The students were about my age and were known at my high school. The teacher who died was a mentor to my best friend. I always try to remember that "quick hike" when I pack. If I'm straying any distance from the major roads, I try to pack enough to keep me comfortable for a week. I take my time and watch my step. I have maps, signalling equipment, an extensive first aid kit and a prepaid cell. I'm thinking about getting one of those individual ELT's they're marketing around here now. Those woods and mountains are totally unforgiving. Some of these speedy kids in spandex think they're just the same as an urban jogging trail. WRONG. I can send you to seven graves that might help educate you on that point. There are similar stories from one coast to the other, and many many more up here. From kids taking the wrong turn off the very civilized Mt. Washington on the East Coast and nearly dying in the sudden snow drifts to folks just outright vanishing off the face of the earth when they go for a little hike up here.

Calling for a rescue is usually all you can do if you snap an ankle or a leg. So bring the means to call for help, and a little bit of food and water to last you 'till they find you. Maybe some minimal shelter.

You're not serious, are you? What on Earth makes you think "they" (whoever "they" are) will be able to find you or help you? Besides, injury is far from the only concern. The weather itself can kill you flat out if you're not prepared. Going into the wilds with no backup clothing and no means of setting up temporary camp is asking for it.

Wheres the fun in that?
I dont see any.

Exactly. If you want to do that, go jog in town or on a groomed cross country trail. THE WILDERNESS IS NOT A GYMNASIUM.

 

[Lucky]

I'm just an amateur, a duffer, but anyone else think it's wierd that the survival list has 2 magnesium fire-starters, but nothing to light with them to start the fire? I had one, used it for kicks, but without that cotton batten stuff it's completely useless. And the cotton is good for first aid, but it kind of sticks into the scab. Whatever.


Whats a nitril glove, and a cpr sheild?

And I think garbage bags are good stuff, always room for them


"The Sultan of Speed and manager of the La Sportiva GoLite Mountain Running Team said his skill, experience and judgment replace things like extra clothing, signal mirror and first-aid kit."

That makes sense, but the 3 things he listed seem to be things that you can't really replace in nature?


Also, they should call it 'light and knowledgeable'.

 

[c_yeager]

Priority #1 should always be Don't Get Hurt. The guy listed in the article isn't being flip, he's being sensible.

Yeah and its just as sensible to say "dont get mugged" which doesnt really do a damn thing to keep it from happening.

Calling for a rescue is usually all you can do if you snap an ankle or a leg. So bring the means to call for help, and a little bit of food and water to last you 'till they find you. Maybe some minimal shelter.

Maybe its different out where you are but around here it can take them 5 days to find you, and the five nights that go with those days dip well below freezing.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've felt the hand of white death on my nethers up here. When I go for a hike any distance from the roadways, I don't just take matches and fire starters. I take a fricking industrial propane heater/cooker from Alaska Industrial Hardware that can crank out enough BTU's to heat a garage No way am I going through that again. No way.

 

[Augustwest]

Been in the woods often enough to know that the only sure thing is that sooner or later something unexpected will happen.

These folks are free to climb in nothing but Goretex thongs as far as I'm concerned, as long as I don't have to pay for their rescue, and my life insurance rates don't go up as a result of their stupidity.

 

[zahc]

So I am guessing you hot shots who are damn quick don't want or need guns for self defense because you can get killed with a gun, so it is an arbitrary level of protection.

no.:banghead:

It's almost like you are getting offensive here. I don't see how this relates at all. I really don't. I'm not espousing a life philosophy here, merely saying that when it comes to doing dangerous things you do the best you can. And sometimes you realize that some 'safety measures' are extra and you'd be better off without them.

If you want to go all gun related on me, I can deal.

Why don't XDs have a thumb safety? Because it's quicker without it. Simplicity. You just don't pull the trigger if you don't want the gun to go bang.

Why don't most here reccomend layering your gun in 3 layers of locking cases with a trigger lock, and storing your ammo at your mom's? After all, that would be safest way to prevent accidental discharge right? That's true, but it also compromises the usefulness of the gun. Guns could be made nonlethal, but that would compromise their purpose. You can't make everything safe. As 1911tuner is fond of saying 'It's a gun. It's NOT safe'.

Airplanes could be built to survive a crash, but they wouldn't fly. You don't see people gluing foam rubber to the noses for padding because that would be pointless. You don't see airplane designers making them heavier, and harder to fly, instead airplane safety revolves around making them perform in the air, and otherwise not crashing. Occasionally stuff happens and they crash. And people die when they do. Flying is dangerous.

Olympic divers don't wear safety gear, because that would mess up their entry.

Bobsled racers don't wear padding because it would slow them down.

Sharp knives cut you easier, but it is better to keep them sharp so that they do there job, and just not cut yourself.

You don't wear gloves to protect your hands when working with spinning lathes, because they decrease your chances of abrasions but increase the chance of getting your hand torn off. You just don't stick your hand in the lathe.

Why don't I wrap myself in bubble shrinkwrap when I go riding? Because I ride my bike to have fun and layering myself with foam both reduces my comfort level and my performance, indeed possibly increasing my chance of crashing. And my good judgement is far far more important to keeping myself alive than any safety gear I may or may not be wearing.

So I can understand how a hiker could feel that, instead of weighing himself down with safety gear, goes light so that he can hike more efficiently and enjoyably. You can't make everything safe.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Zahc gets it.

Accidents aren't an inevitability. Constant vigilence and good judgement will virtually eliminate the possibility of finding yourself in a bad situation in the backcountry.

Don't think that's true?? Then you'd better give up your guns. Because the only thing preventing a disaster with your firearms is constant vigilence and good judgement. If that's not good enough in the mountains then it's not good enough on the range.

Sure, there's a possibilty that something could go wrong no matter how careful you are. But that chance can be reduced to next to nothing. You hafta accept some degree of minimal risk no matter what you're doing. But that doesn't mean you should live your life in constant fear.

Take this as an example:
Statistically (and logically), one of the best ways to increase the likelyhood of ankle injuries is to carry more weight. The more gear you pack, the more likely you are to face an emergency due to a broken or twisted ankle. Packing lighter, more minimal gear is actually safer in this regard.

And don't go telling me that all your extra gear will help see you through such an emergency. I've been there, and I know it just ain't so.

 

[TarpleyG]

Yup, with 30 years experience he knows his limitations as well as anyone can. That's worth a lot more than a bandaid. It's not a philosophy, it's an aquired skill.

His mode of operation is in line with how I ride motorcycles. After 30 years of riding I can go farther faster (and safer) without a huge load of stuff I won't use.

If safety equipment is what allows people to participate that's great but I have to wonder how long their luck will hold out. An MSF instructor once told me of the half dozen crashes he survived because of all his safety gear I'll bet on my riding skills over expensive gear any day. There is simply nothing safer than not crashing (on a regular basis!!!) .

Yup, and a friend of mine just got plowed over by a 2-ton car and was killed. His riding skill never played into it. Go ahead and keep that attitude you got goin' there. Hopefully you have as nice a turn out at your funeral as my friend did.

Greg

 

[lee n. field]

Two Band-aids

Antiseptic wipe

Three safety pins

Two knives: a drop point (a using knife) and a round point (medical purposes)

Multi-tool

.45 auto w/ 2 extra magazines, or equivalent wheelgun. And hope you don't meet a grizzly.

 

[MillCreek]

Accidents aren't an inevitability. Constant vigilence and good judgement will virtually eliminate the possibility of finding yourself in a bad situation in the backcountry.

With all due respect, I must simply disagree with this, unless we expand the definition of constant vigilence and good judgment to include never venturing out unless you are on a paved flat trail in open country with an extended weather forecast of 72 degrees and sunny. And I am sure the original poster did not mean this.

As with most things in life, we are speaking of tradeoffs. And in this circumstance, is there training and experience (which weighs nothing) along with sensibly-chosen equipment, which can minimize wilderness hazards and improve chances of surviving an emergency? I believe so.

Certainly, you cannot eliminate all hazards, but you can take prudent steps to minimize them, and I also believe in luck. And I have personally and professionally experienced situations in which people just plumb ran out of luck. If the event is serious enough, you may not be able to handle it entirely on your own, but perhaps you can mitigate the event while awaiting help.

The chance of an accident can be minimized, but in most situations, cannot be eliminated. The chance of an adverse event is what all of us prepare for. How we prepare for it is a matter of individual risk assessment and individual choice.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The chance of an accident can be minimized, but in most situations, cannot be eliminated. The chance of an adverse event is what all of us prepare for. How we prepare for it is a matter of individual risk assessment and individual choice.

I agree completely. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

It's been my experience that "adverse events" are the result of carelessness or bad judgement, not a lack of proper equipment. Further, it's been my experience that overcoming adverse events successfully is a result of skill and good decision-making, not the presence of exceptional equipment.

Good judgement, skill, vigilence, experience, etc will make or break any trip in the backcountry. Equipment plays a far smaller role.

If you wanna improve your odds, look to the former rather than the latter.

Don't forget that our ancestors lived their whole lives in the wilds without any of the gear we now consider indespensible. They survived because they knew what they were doing, not because they had packs full of modern technology. We can do the same, if we too know what we're doing.

 

[torpid]

Don't forget that our ancestors lived their whole lives in the wilds without any of the gear we now consider indespensible. They survived because they knew what they were doing, not because they had packs full of modern technology. We can do the same, if we too know what we're doing.

Yes, and they'd have thought us damned fools for forgoing the technologies that they wished they'd had at their disposal.

 

[pax]

Cosmoline ~ Excellent post. (Go back and read it again, guys!)

I'm just an amateur, a duffer, but anyone else think it's wierd that the survival list has 2 magnesium fire-starters, but nothing to light with them to start the fire? I had one, used it for kicks, but without that cotton batten stuff it's completely useless. And the cotton is good for first aid, but it kind of sticks into the scab. Whatever.

I've used the magnesium fire-starters with scavenged natural materials on a wet day, and managed to get a fire going. If you know what you're doing, fire starting materials are literally everywhere oudoors. (Plus, the magnesium fire starter I use has a nice wood handle, which can be whittled off and used for tinder in an emergency.)

But what I find most useful: cotton balls (made of 100% cotton), each dunked in vaseline, and stored inside an empty film canister. You can squish seven or eight into each canister, then put a little scrape of vaseline over the top to seal it even more. It's very compact, it doesn't weigh hardly anything, it's waterproof, and the vaseline is useful for chapped lips & other minor owies. A cotton ball with vaseline on it will light instantly and burn for three minutes or more before fizzling out, even without putting any more tinder on top of it. Obviously, depending on other materials at hand, you don't need to use an entire cotton ball every time you start a fire; you just use enough to get your other stuff going.

pax

 

[MechAg94]

It's been my experience that "adverse events" are the result of carelessness or bad judgement, not a lack of proper equipment. Further, it's been my experience that overcoming adverse events successfully is a result of skill and good decision-making, not the presence of exceptional equipment.

It has been my experience that "carelessness or bad judgement" often happen to the best of us and usually when we least expect it. You can be constantly vigilant all the time, but then get distracted one day or just be unlucky.

No one is saying you need to carry a 500 lb pack. Just do your best to prepare yourself for the environment that you are entering. Don't assume nothing will happen. You cannot plan for everything. **** Happens.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, and they'd have thought us damned fools for forgoing the technologies that they wished they'd had at their disposal.

Not to mention their LIFESPANS were rather shorter than ours.

If you venture into the wilds, it is YOUR responsibility to have enough equipment and supplies to hunker down in safety for at least a few days and to provide medical care way beyond slapping some wipes on a wound and trying to put a band-aid on it. The same conditions which catch you off-guard often prevent rescue for a time. Indeed you should have enough equipment and backup so that you DO NOT NEED TO CALL the powers that be to bail you out for a busted ankle. You SHOULD be able to hunker down and wait for your friends to come get you rather than demanding a chopper and a cast of thousands to bail your arrogant rear end out of there--at great risk and expense I might add.

It's been my experience that "adverse events" are the result of carelessness or bad judgement,

Adverse events can be as hard to predict as the weather. The carelessness and bad judgment comes into play when folks expect the weather to stay the same and nobody to get hurt.

I've been looking into this Coupounas character. He goes around like a new age guru making tons of money delivering "Fast Packing 101" sermons around the nation to his growing cult of fanatics, selling them GoLite junk and encouraging folks to rely on civil authorities to bail them out of trouble. Bad bad bad bad

 

[LawDog]

Accidents aren't an inevitability. Constant vigilence and good judgement will virtually eliminate the possibility of finding yourself in a bad situation in the backcountry.

Don't think that's true?? Then you'd better give up your guns. Because the only thing preventing a disaster with your firearms is constant vigilence and good judgement. If that's not good enough in the mountains then it's not good enough on the range.

And don't we say that there's two kind of gun people: Those who have had a negligent discharge and those who are going to have one?

Use your search function: the ND threads here and at TFL are legion.

That's why we have the Four Rules -- so when we have a "bad situation" with our firearms, we minimize the danger to ourselves and others.

We plan on not having any bad situations with our firearms, but we follow the Four Rules just in case.

I don't plan on having any bad situations while out hiking/hunting, but I carry gear just in case.

LawDog

 

[torpid]

I don't plan on having any bad situations while out hiking/hunting, but I carry gear just in case.

But that's just setting yourself up for failure.

If you make sure to have no fallback options, you won't have the luxury of being able to endure misfortune- Doing this ensures that you won't ever find yourself in a situation that calls for such options in the first place.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Staying safe is something that resides between your ears, not in your pack.

I've seen too much gear fail, or get lost, or not live up to its expectations. Even when equipment does do everything you expect of it (rare) it's still no substitute for being smart.

Sorry, but I'm not going to trust my life to gadgetry. I'll sink or swim based on my abilites, not my possessions.

 

[torpid]

Even when equipment does do everything you expect of it (rare) it's still no substitute for being smart.

Sorry, but I'm not going to trust my life to gadgetry. I'll sink or swim based on my abilites, not my possessions.

Some folks use their smarts, skills, and abilities, and also carry "just in case" gear too.

.

 

[MillCreek]

I've seen too much gear fail, or get lost, or not live up to its expectations.

+1 to that. And a prime example of this that I see every hiking season is the use of a GPS. I have a nice Magellan GPS and use it frequently. But the thing about a GPS in the Cascades or Olympics is that you can have difficulty acquiring or maintaining satellite lock in heavy forest cover or in valleys. And it seems that a lot of the trails here are in heavy forest cover or in valleys. The GPS works like a champ in terrain with a clear view of the sky. I also carry a map and compass and know how to use them.

I have had to be an impromptu guide to several parties over the years who are looking at and shaking their GPS, wondering why it is not working and pointing them back to the trailhead.....

 

[pax]

I'll sink or swim based on my abilites, not my possessions.

Unless, of course, you're adrift in the middle of the ocean, and the possession is a life raft.

pax

 

[XLMiguel]

Successful "high speed, low drag" generally assumes high risk and/or optimized conditions and back-up (i.e. Plan B, and C, plus maybe D & E) in place,. Those who go that way without alternatives and back-up are fools IME. Murphy loves fools, they taste like chicken.

"Be prepared", anyone?

This opinion based on 30+ years as a Cheasapeake & blue water sailor. (Murphy is a sailor, too.)