The Great Debate: The Mentally Ill and Guns

[JohnL2]

One of the greatest skills one can develop in life is tact.
Everyone is different. Even if they have a categorized illness of the mind.
Sure they may have an affliction but you have to consider the person there also. Their character. Personality. Moral fiber if any.
When I was very young there was this old man that walked backwards in our neighborhood. Never knew why, but you could see him every other day just walking backwards down the sidewalk. Crazy? Eccentric? Just the neighborhood oddball?
I feel sometimes you can instantly judge a person. I believe that. Sometimes it may take a long time because they have learned to hide certain aspects of themselves. I think this is where a lot women tend to get into trouble. They fall for the charmer, only to realize later that he is really a monster underneath.

I think some of the most dangerous are the emotional obsessives.
Most mentally ill people quietly live their lives and don't want to bother anyone. The ones who do commit heinous crimes are like the runaway trainwreck. Spectacular in nature and garner all the attention.

 

[Blackbeard]

Depends. There are many disorders that fall under the category of "mental illness", and there are many degrees of control over them. Someone with a serious psychosis could be perfectly normal as long as they take their medication, but in today's health care climate there is no way to make sure they do.

 

[plexreticle]

IMHO: if you are safe enough to operate a motor vehicle in public, you are safe enough to own a firearm..

IMHO also.

 

[clemsonu0219]

what illness? how medicated? any history of violence? should always come into play, other than that, I see no reason why you should have your constitutional rights stripped b/c of depression or something of that nature.

 

[jackmead]

Some people think I'm mentally ill just because I own more than 4 guns and vote the wrong way every 2 years.

 

[.cheese.]

depends on how you define mentally ill.

IMO, garden variety depression is not a mental illness. Garden variety anxiety is not a mental illness. Simple phobias does not constitute a mental illness.

Just because there are pills for something, doesn't make it an illness or a disorder.

I have insomnia from a combination of things, including anxiety and some fear issues. I don't consider myself mentally ill. I also have mild OCD whereby I have a nervous habit of fidgeting with my hair.... I don't consider that a mental illness either.

The problem with all of this is that IMO, what constitutes real mental illness from benign issues is only something that can be judged on a case-by-case basis.

Also: Having seen or currently seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist does not mean you're mentally ill either, just like seeing a cardiologist doesn't mean you have heart disease.

 

[ScottyB]

Try this one on for size...

I have OCD issues along with massive guilt issues. I can (and do) make myself feel bad about almost anything. When that happens, I obsess over it and then punish myself with depression and/or not allowing myself to be happy, positive or physically proficient at anything for (think playing sports, etc..., even if I'm really good at them under normal circumstances).

Because of all that, I'm stuck right now because I'm so paranoid about hurting kids with lead dust (I'm not talking my bullets, which are non-toxic, but just the act of spreading around other people's dust outside the range) that I am depressed and am struggling to get myself to go shooting again (which I really enjoy, btw). In my mind, lead is a horrible toxin, it does not go away, and by going to a range I'm taking it from a "safe-ish" place and spreading it around for kids to ingest it, thus causing them irreversible neurological damage.

Not being able to shoot is one thing, having the guilt destroy almost all other sources of joy and accomplishment in my life is another.

How much does that suck?

 

[1911Tuner]

In my mind, lead is a horrible toxin, it does not go away, and by going to a range I'm taking it from a "safe-ish" place and spreading it around for kids to ingest it, thus causing them irreversible neurological damage.

Uh...You could change clothes after you shoot.

 

[.cheese.]

ScottyB - you're catastrophizing (and don't be hard on yourself about this too - please - everybody catastrophizes to some extent)

instead of catastrophizing - try thinking your worries through. If you are that concerned about somehow hurting your kids with lead poisoning, there are a number of options:

1) go to outdoor ranges
2) use lead-free ammo like Barnes all-copper ammo or similar
3) as mentioned - change your clothes after range visits

and try to relax man.

I'm not a therapist or anything. This is just friendly advice.

 

[bloodedsky]

OCD is not something you "think through." It requires medication and, for some, therapy. It shouldn't be trivialized. Even so, good advice you all offered for Scotty--maybe he'll be able to take it.

I think OCD sucketh much. It vacuums all the fun out of life until you have it under control, but it does not render a person unable to possess a firearm (assuming other conditions are not present).

 

[sm]

The Great Debate

The Great Debate throughout history has been between Free Persons and those Persons that wished to Control others. [Tyranny]

Weapons have kept a Free Society Free and Tyranny has always known a people not able to defend, are easier to overtake and control.

Words get new definitions and interpretations to benefit those whom wish to control.
Lunatics, so named for the Lunar cycle, and persons behaving in a manner when that cycle came around were targeted as not being able to function amongst others.
Lunatic Asylums.

We have always had those with serious problems that it was not best for them to be around others in society, if one is sick, one is sick, and Leper colonies are one example.


Gun Control is about Control - Period.

Tyranny will use various avenues to achieve a destination of a control society.
Mental Illness and how defined, and whom is doing the defining and the interpretation is dangerous.

The more enacted laws, the more words, and the more these words can be defined and interpretations changed to justify a means of Tyranny.

Who are the incompetents?
What about those elected whom took an oath to protect against all enemies foreign and domestic?

One would have to be crazy to not believe in something they took a oath to, now wouldn't they?

 

[ScottyB]

FTR, I'm not talking about my kid, I can control her environment (to some extent). I'm talking about tracking lead dust off the range (even outdoor) and taking it into the non-shooting range world.

I still have to wash my clothes and that lead is going somewhere...

I have all kinds of non-toxic cartridges (Ballisticlean, Winchester Super Clean NT, and SBR Greenmatch). I'd love to have my own shooting area out in a field somewhere.

 

[makarovnik]

Boy this is a tricky subject. If you are slightly depressed or have generalized anxiety order you might be OK as long as you keep an eye on it and don't forget to take your medication. Black outs, post traumatic stress disorder, schizophrenia, drug and alcohol addiction and many other problems are much more scary and unpredictable. I think the important thing is to get treatment and continue treatment. If someone ever feels they are losing good judgement they should hopefully be able to realize it soon enough to stay away from guns until the problem is treated in a satisfactory manner.

At one time in my life I had to have three huge internal hemorrhoids removed. Now I'm pretty tough but let me tell you that hurt like hell for a week. The intense pain along with the fact I was home alone and doped up on dilaudid forced me to tell my wife to "hide the guns". A week or so later I told her she could bring the guns back out of hiding. That was the only time I didn't want guns in the house. I'm fine now.

 

[Microlon]

Given the nature of our world, I believe it's insane to NOT own a firearm. If there were some other, equally effective method of self preservation, and the preservation of those we love, then I'd be all for that, too. There really isn't, by and large, so the obvious choice in an insane world is to be armed.

And anyone who thinks you should not be armed is either nuts or evil.

 

[.cheese.]

If you are slightly depressed or have generalized anxiety order you might be OK as long as you keep an eye on it and don't forget to take your medication.

chances are if somebody is slightly depressed, they aren't going to seek treatment, and therefore aren't going to be on meds.

Generalized anxiety is tricky too, because most people don't realize that they're more anxious than they should be. Also, many people with this too are not on meds.

You make it sound like you think people with minor disorders are going to go off the deep end without medication. Is that really what you think would happen? All I see happening in that scenario is the person isn't quite as comfortable or happy as they could be.... nothing more.

 

[romma]

The Goverment will declare us all mentally ill in some fashion!

 

[BridgeWalker]

The intense pain along with the fact I was home alone and doped up on dilaudid forced me to tell my wife to "hide the guns". A week or so later I told her she could bring the guns back out of hiding. That was the only time I didn't want guns in the house. I'm fine now.

You have just proposed an excellent solution to the dilemma of mental illness and guns. If someone feels they are not capable of being safe around their guns, they ask a friend or relative to remove them. The interference of NannyGov is not necessary.

 

[wbh]

Something I don't think anyone has touched on yet is the type of medication one may be on that addresses the mental illness.

If I am correct, some medicines for depression can actually cause an increase in the desire to commit suicide in some people. Should those people be allowed to own firearms? I think it makes an already messy subject even messier.

Should a person on one of those meds have their guns taken away? No, probably not. But it introduces another challenge to the debate. And it's something we need to work out a solution to before the Brady Bunch and the rest work out a solution for us....no guns...there's their solution.

 

[BridgeWalker]

If I am correct, some medicines for depression can actually cause an increase in the desire to commit suicide in some people. Should those people be allowed to own firearms? I think it makes an already messy subject even messier.

Not really. Unfaithful spouses can cause in increase in the desire for suicide. Should we forbid married people from owning guns? Bad investments can cause an increase in the desire for suicide. Should we forbid anyone who invests money from owning guns?

Life is not risk-free, people are responsible for their own safety and sometims, when bad things happen, like illness or other trouble, for the safety of their family and friends.

The government is not supposed to be protecting us from the possibility that we'll suffer from a dangerous negative impulse.

 

[chibajoe]

You can't go around taking guns away from people just because you think they might do something wrong with them.

 

[wbh]

I think you failed to read further in my post

Should a person on one of those meds have their guns taken away? No, probably not.

and while a cheating spouse may cause an increase in desire to commit suicide, said spouse is in no way, shape, or form prescribed by your doctor as something beneficial to your health.

I never said we need to take their guns away. The point is that it muddies the water and is something that we should address in some way before the antis address it for us.

 

[.cheese.]

the reports of anti-depressants increasing suicide attempts are/were last I heard - controversial and inconclusive.

The initial study that reported that was not designed to even test such a theory, it was a standard clinical trial. They also found that the age bracket for this supposed issue was limited to those under 25 years of age and that others were no more likely to have suicidal thoughts than those taking the placebo.

Even so though, the kind of person who would be taking anti-depressants IMO is not the kind of person worth worrying about. 1) A depressed individual is still a sane individual and 2) if they're seeking treatment, they're competent enough and mature enough to handle their own affairs and to own a firearm (IMO).

My line of thought on this is simple. If you believe that the government is reading your thoughts using alien technology and as a result you stay locked up in a tin-foil covered room - yeah ok.... I'll say that owning a firearm might not be a good idea for you, at least until you've sought treatment and have things under control at which time I would consider you having obtained relief from your disability.

But the average person who is stressed out (generalized anxiety disorder if you HAVE to give it a name), and depressed (life isn't always happy - sad but true).... or maybe has OCD ranging from mild to severe..... or maybe has severe phobia issues like somebody I know with a bad case of agoraphobia - IS STILL SANE! I have no issue with these people owning firearms and am 100% convinced that the majority of people have issues like this and may just not be seeking treatment.

Here's how I know:

Afraid of open spaces? You have agoraphobia.

Afraid of enclosed spaces? You have claustrophobia.

Don't like bees? You have apiphobia.

Afraid of being alone? You have autophobia.

Afraid of needles (you should be!) ? You have enetophobia. Or maybe it isn't the needle when you get your blood drawn at the doctor's office, but the sight of blood itself. Well my friend, you have hemophobia. While we're at it, do you hate going to see doctors? You might have latrophobia.

Clam up when speaking in front of large crowds of people? You have glossophobia.

Like staying skinny? Do you fear getting fat and as such try to stay in control of your eating? You probably have obesophobia.

Democrat? You probably have phonemophobia (fear of thinking) (j/k to my liberal friends here at THR )

If you're like me and don't like swimming in the ocean (jellyfish! ) - you could have thalassophobia.

The list goes on and on. Granted, phobias aren't mental disorders, but natural responses to events that we found somehow upsetting or traumatizing (at least this is my understanding). Doesn't matter though, because plenty of people see psychiatrists or psychologists for phobia issues, and I'm sure the government would love to classify them as nuts for purposes of taking their gun rights away.

This whole thing is a slippery slope.

*again, I'm no doctor. I just find this topic interesting*

 

[Thain]

ETA: Gosh-darn, I posted from my husband's computer and forgot to log him out and log me in. This post is by BridgeWalker.

I think you failed to read further in my post

I really didn't

and while a cheating spouse may cause an increase in desire to commit suicide, said spouse is in no way, shape, or form prescribed by your doctor as something beneficial to your health.

My doctor is not responsible for my health. I am. I go to a priest if I want to get married, a doctor if I want a medication. The priest has authority to marry me if I meet the criteria; the doctor has authority to give me medication. Both have risks. I assume the risks, not the authority figure who enable s me to take those actions.

I never said we need to take their guns away. The point is that it muddies the water and is something that we should address in some way before the antis address it for us.

It really doesn't. As sm pointed out, it is not about guns, it is about control. A couple centuries ago it was about phases of the moon; now it's prozac and paxil. Whatever. The antis care about removing guns. By claiming that anti-depressants "muddy the waters" you are agreeing that:

1) People might not be responsbile for their own actions.

2) Some people (ok, so up to a third of people) might need help from nannygov figuring out if tehy're "ok" to have guns. Uh, I don't think so.

3) Controling people who want guns is an acceptable government function.

No, anti-depressants don't "muddy the waters", nor does the fact that a doctor prescribed them nor does the fact that some people may sometimes feel suicidal, nor does the fact that there may be credible speculation about a link between drugs and suicidality. If one is competant to manage his affairs, he is competent to possess a gun, unless he has *committed a crime* that limits his rights. If one has lost and reattained competency, his rights must be restored.

If someone is about to start a course of antidepressants and is concerned about the studies that suggest a correlation between his medication and suicide, he should call his sibling/parent/child/friend/neighbor to remove his guns.

Life is not risk free. Most people with mental illness have gotten this clue. NannyGov has no role in keeping these people safe from thier own actions anymore than it does in any other person's life situations.

Yeah, I read your post. You don't seem to realize that when we agree that non-psychotic mental illness is a potentially valid excuse for gun-grabbing, you immediately sell out a couple million of your fellow Americans.

Don't worry, you're in good company. This is my major beef with Wayne LaPierre, and I still send him money.

 

[DENALI]

I believe someone posted ahead of me that all men and women are to some extent mentally ill! I believe this is most likely accurate, and it reminds me of a very famous study conducted out east several decades back.
Medical students were instructed to present themselves at various hospital ER's and complain of very common chronic mental health ailments, voices, delusions, hallucinations ect.. Then upon their admittence to these various psychiatric wards they were instructed to revert to their normal behavior.
The results in the charting by trained psychiatric caseworkers portrayed these students as markedly and profoundly mentally ill......The results of an actual psychiatric study......So be careful....

 

[.cheese.]

If someone is about to start a course of antidepressants and is concerned about the studies that suggest a correlation between his medication and suicide, he should call his sibling/parent/child/friend/neighbor to remove his guns.

could do that, or just give his/her sibling their key to the safe AND/OR change the combination if it's a combination safe (assuming it's able to be user-set).