The Hi-Point Throwdown

[Justin42]

This thread is great. I haven't had much experience with their pistols, but I do own the 995. This was the first rifle I had ever purchased. You here alot of people bashing the company (and many sticking up for it). When they bash it, it's the usual "for more money...", "for self defense...", but not enough of "for a gun to have fun with and go out plinking."

I owe a lot to my 995 for laying down the proper gun handling building blocks. I've had nothing but fun with that gun. From experience, thier warranty has been awesome. I lost a set screw for the front sight assembly. I contacted them to find out how to get a replacement, and even though it was my own fault, they sent me a whole new assembly as well as a few targets of osama bin laden and sadam hussein. I thought that was pretty cool.

 

[Girodin]

To me, a $150 995 9mm Carbine offers a level of defense FAR in excess of the expenditure of cash required to own one, and is far more sensible a home defense selection if one can truly only afford a single firearm. Honestly i would rather have a 995 Carbine than a $2000 1911 for home defense/SHTF if it was my only firearm.

I wouldn't. If I only could have one gun I would want a pistol because it is easier to keep on my person at all times. Try carrying a long gun around the house all day it is a PIA and very soon you start just leaving it. Since I can not assure I'll have the opportunity to walk across the house to get it when I need a gun I prefer to have one I can keep on me.

 

[valorius]

90+% of the general firearms owning public probably does not carry a gun around the house with them unless they heard a bump or bang or a crash in the night, or whatever else.

However if you are one of the people that do, clearly you'd be better served with the pistol, at least until you actually had to use it.

If you're one of the 90%+ (admittedly my own guesstimate figure), the 995 is a far more potent weapon than almost any pistol.

I bought a 995 for my 11yo god son. He is a novice shooter, but i can tell you that you'd not want to be anywhere near him with evil intent when he has a locked and loaded 995 on his person. Out to about 15 yards he can put bullet after bullet through the same jagged hole. At that range with a pistol, he's lucky to hit the target, honestly.

 

[Girodin]

90+% of the general firearms owning public probably does not carry a gun around the house with them unless they heard a bump or bang or a crash in the night, or whatever else.

Just because it is what most people do does not mean it is sage or the best idea. It is bloody unlikely that one will need a gun in their home for defense but should it happen it would sure be nice to have instant access to it. Having a gun one cannot reach is not better than having no gun at all.

However if you are one of the people that do, clearly you'd be better served with the pistol, at least until you actually had to use it.

When it comes time to use it one is better served by a weapon he or she actually has access to. They are better served by the pistol in hand than the uber ultra death ray in the closet upstairs or down the hall. There is no question I would rather have a long gun in a gun fight. Of course if I have time to go get a long gun I'd reach for any number of long guns before I took one of my 9mm carbines (I've owned two hi points). If it were to be something in the high points price range it would be a pump shotgun.

I bought a 995 for my 11yo god son. He is a novice shooter, but i can tell you that you'd not want to be anywhere near him with evil intent when he has a locked and loaded 995 on his person. Out to about 15 yards he can put bullet after bullet through the same jagged hole. At that range with a pistol, he's lucky to hit the target, honestly.

FWI I commented only on what I would want and I'm not 11 and posses the proficiency to score consistent hits at 15 yards with any of my defensive handguns. Yes a carbine is probably easier for a novice or even an experienced shooter but if one is going to keep a gun for defense they ought to develop the requisite skill sets to use it. Also, there is a world of difference between defensive shooting and the skills required and static range shooting. If you have never had the chance to do any "run and gun" type shooting it is an amazingly eye opening experience. One realizes very very quickly that being able to align the sights on a target is only one part that type of shooting and even that can be a very different ball game under stress.

If one's gun is just going to be a talisman to place in the closet to make one feel better "just in case", get whatever you want it probably matters very little. In sum, a piece of hardware is a poor fix to major software issues.

A long gun is a better fighting weapon but a handgun is in so rather important respects a much more practical defensive weapon. I suppose that is one reason that it is nice to own and be proficient with both.

 

[valorius]

"In sum, a piece of hardware is a poor fix to major software issues."

If you believe that philosophy then you can say the same thing about the pistol, or any defensive tool.

And let's be serious, those same 90% i referred to in my last post are going to leave their hi point pistol in a drawer, which is no better than them leaving their hi point carbine in a closet.

A pistol is generally inferior to a carbine in all ways except portability. So for the overwhelming majority of us who do not walk our houses at all times armed, there is no real practical difference between the two when viewed purely as home defense tools, except when it comes time to actually trade shots, in which case the 995 has the obvious prohibitive advantage.

If you're only gonna have one gun, a 995 is about 100x more gun than the vast majority of pistols. Let's face it, most people that buy a hi point aint gonna practice with it to the point that they gain any high degree of proficiency. Many if not most Hi Point owners are poor people looking for a reliable means of last ditch personal defense. They'll take it to the range, make sure it works, and then it will go in a drawer and sit there forever, maybe getting shot once every year or so, if that. That's probably true for most handguns and handgun owners in general anyway.

A shotgun is also a very solid choice, as you mention...unless you're a 5'2" 110lb female who has been to the range all of a couple times in your life, or an older person, or a younger person, or anyone sensitive to heavy recoil, then the compact, lightweight, low recoil (even with +P+ the 995 barely recoils) 11 shot 9mm carbine is a much better choice than the pistol or the shotgun.

Seriously, the 995 carbine is a slick little SOB, and the same length as a fully collapsed 14" M-4 carbine. For the average shooter, it is probably about 100x more lethal in the real world than a hi point pistol, or any pistol, and a hell of a lot friendlier to a lot of people than the savage recoil of a shotgun.

Me personally, i love a shotgun for home defense, i have a Beretta 1200FP 12ga semi for that purpose, but my 5' tall girlfriend has much different views. She loves my compact, light recoiling AR carbine. She, like my 11yo god son, can use a light recoiling carbine with surgical precision at real world civilian gunfighting ranges. With my P7 she can barely keep her groups in a 6" circle at 7 yards. She has terrible problems with limp wristing my LCP as well. She doesn't want to devote a big part of her life to getting good with a pistol. She has seen that right now, with her skill level, she can shoot quarters at 15 yds with a 995 carbine.(Or dimes with my AR) She can operate either well. Carbines don't give her problems due to her size like auto pistols do. A carbine inspires confidence (and fear in your opponent if you are seen to be armed with a rifle), and in the case of the 995 propelling 9mm's out of it's carbine length barrel, is highly effective. (My godson's 995 has demonstrated 100% reliability with 115gr +P+ Fed 9BPLE, 100gr+P Corbon Powrbal, 115gr+P Corbon Sierra, and even super hot 115gr+P Buffalo Bore Gold Dot JHP- any one of these loads would be devastating out of a 995)

Discounting CCW, there is no way on earth that a Hi Point pistol would be even remotely as good a choice for my GF or other petite women, or many frail older people, or most smaller kids that are of an age to learn to shoot and help the family in a defensive situation, or people with medical ailments that affect hand strength, or a perfectly healthy grown man in a SHTF or survival or enemy invasion scenario.

So if i could only chose one gun, and it said hi point on the side of it, it would be a 995.

LOL...next batter!

 

[Kimber.45]

Agreed that you could certainly carry a Hi Point pistol if your wardrobe and the weather allow for it, but if you had an 18rd Ruger SR9 at your disposal, you would not consciously choose to carry a Hi Point over your Ruger except in very unusual circumstances.

It's like a Chevy Cavalier. You can off-road or race a Cavalier, but why? God invented 4x4's and Porsche's for a reason. Just as he invented Cavaliers for a reason.

All i'm saying is that while the Hi point serves a very useful niche role, it is just that: A niche weapon. On it's own merits it is not competitive with other niche weapons unless you are placing an over-riding importance on entry cost.

To say that a Hi Point pistol is as good as a HK P7 for CCW, or as good as a FN Five Seven for battlefield use, or as good as a target pistol for target use, or as good for home defense as a 18rd Ruger SR9 as mentioned above is just not accurate. To imply that a person with a niche use like one of those i just mentioned would be as well armed with a Hi Point as they would with it's much higher priced competitors is just not reasonable, and quite frankly, is dangerously bad advice IMO.

A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes. How can't it be? For what a Hi Point pistol or carbine is designed to be, it has NO peers in it's niche....it's niche being the cheapest possible entry price for a poor American to give himself a reliable means of multi-shot defense with a firearm.

To me, a $150 995 9mm Carbine offers a level of defense FAR in excess of the expenditure of cash required to own one, and is far more sensible a home defense selection if one can truly only afford a single firearm. Honestly i would rather have a 995 Carbine than a $2000 1911 for home defense/SHTF if it was my only firearm.

I do have the choice of carrying any of several guns and sometimes I do carry my Hi-Point over one of the others. The reason is that I have that option, I also live in a very low risk area. It would sort of be like driving a Porsche slowly over speed bumps in a gated community to carry my SR9 where I live.

I also never said that a HP was as good as an HK P7 or any other gun and especially for specialized guns as you suggest. I will venture to say however that a Hi-Point is better than those others in it's intended niche ( a weapon for those who cannot afford anything better), in other words, any gun is better than no gun or put another way: A hit with a $130 Hi-Point is better than no shot from a $2000 gun on a gunstore shelf.
Having no weapon to protect oneself is by far mor dangerous advice than buying a Hi-Point.

I also state once again, the Hi-Point can serve in various roles for someone who is of very limited funds. One cannot carry a shotgun or carbine around with them.

You seem to misinterpret what I'm saying. I'll attempt to make it clear.
1) I never said a Hi-Point was better than a shotgun for HD.
2) I never said a Hi-Point was better than one of the more expensive guns EXCEPT that it is better to have a $130 Hi-Point with oneself rather than a $2000 pistol in ones dreams or dealer display case.

There are many people who cannot afford Kimbers, HK's or even Ruger SR9's, Hi-Points give those people the means to protect themselves and gives people like me a chance to try them out for myself without any great loss if I didn't like it. I've had my Hi-Point for several years now and have no intention of getting rid of it. I accept it for what it is and I enjoy it.

 

[Kimber.45]

I wouldn't. If I only could have one gun I would want a pistol because it is easier to keep on my person at all times. Try carrying a long gun around the house all day it is a PIA and very soon you start just leaving it. Since I can not assure I'll have the opportunity to walk across the house to get it when I need a gun I prefer to have one I can keep on me.

I agree and this is a point I tried to make.
A lot of gun people have fancy guns and end up carrying small pocket pistols instead.
I wouldn't want to haul a long gun around all day.

 

[Kimber.45]

90+% of the general firearms owning public probably does not carry a gun around the house with them unless they heard a bump or bang or a crash in the night, or whatever else.

However if you are one of the people that do, clearly you'd be better served with the pistol, at least until you actually had to use it.

If you're one of the 90%+ (admittedly my own guesstimate figure), the 995 is a far more potent weapon than almost any pistol.

I bought a 995 for my 11yo god son. He is a novice shooter, but i can tell you that you'd not want to be anywhere near him with evil intent when he has a locked and loaded 995 on his person. Out to about 15 yards he can put bullet after bullet through the same jagged hole. At that range with a pistol, he's lucky to hit the target, honestly.

By your own admission your GS is a novice, give him time and instruction.

Hopefully he and your GF will always have their carbines close at hand when out in public. BTW, 7 yards seems a more realistic distance for SD shootings than 15 yards.

 

[harmon rabb]

The 995 is pretty sweet for what it is, I'll give it that. A buddy has one that I have fired. I can hit cans at 50yds with iron sights, no problem. With some +p+ in there, it would probably generate velocities in excess of standard .357mag out of a 6" revolver.

 

[Lar1911]

I wouldn't. If I only could have one gun I would want a pistol because it is easier to keep on my person at all times. Try carrying a long gun around the house all day it is a PIA and very soon you start just leaving it.

I am in the Army and have spent time in Iraq with the M16. You get use to having it attached to you all the time.

When I came home it was strange not having it with me.

 

[Kimber.45]

I am in the Army and have spent time in Iraq with the M16. You get use to having it attached to you all the time.

When I came home it was strange not having it with me.

I too used to carry an M16, a long time ago
Wait until you are a 50 yo civilian.

I'm looking forward to the next report. I don't expect the Hi-Point to shine but I hope to see it perform reasonably well.

 

[Lar1911]

Im a 49 yr old soldier

 

[Lar1911]

I was hoping for a smart ass remark on my age.

 

[valorius]

Do they hold up the PT formation when your walker gets stuck in a crack in the pavement?

I was a young infantryman, could not even imagine doing it at age 49. But i do agree, your rifle becomes a part of you.

 

[Girodin]

I'll reiterate what I believe is are the key parts of both my previous posts

1) "I commented only on what I would want"

There maybe special circumstances for some that change those parameters. We could come up with those all day. A carbine is not a good choice for someone with one arm like my friend, ah ha a pistol is the better HD weapon. Inviduals particular circumstances have little bearing on what I would want or what others should want.

2) "If one's gun is just going to be a talisman to place in the closet to make one feel better "just in case", get whatever you want it probably matters very little."

Lots of people do number two. I personally think it is a notch above having no gun (provided you at least know how to handle it safely) but it is light years behind having and knowing how to truly use a weapon and having access to it. I won't dispute that the percentage of gun owners that are adequately prepared to defend themselves with a gun is very low. Again just because lots of people do something doesn't make it a good idea.

A shotgun is also a very solid choice, as you mention...unless you're a 5'2" 110lb female

That describes my ex girlfriend pretty well. To paint the image she is much more into Prada than Colt. She is not a gun person at all but after spending a small amount of time to learn how to shoot could wield my defensive guns just fine including my 12 gauge (the adjustible stock was nice here because fit is more important than gauge in such a circumstance). She could shoot my 1911 and my various 9mm handguns. She could work the slides and do all the things some people think small women cannot. It is amazing what a little technique will do. My mother (another 110 lbs woman) was convinced she could not work the slides of an auto loader. Pinching the slide between two fingers and trying to pull with that hand she was correct. After adjusting her techinque those impossible to operate slides were easily racked.

Also I wasn't even that big (110) when I started hunting birds and was able to use a shotgun (including 12s). Again fit and learning how to shoot is more important than gauge.

That's not to say that a 12 gauge is the best option for such a person. A carbine might well be better. See point one above.

When the argument for a gun revolves around the following premises: The person wont learn how to use it or an alternative anyhow, it, or an alternative, will just sit in a drawer, the person is inadequately skilled to use a better option and refuses to develop minimal skills to do so, the person is unwilling to make available the alternative, etc. I don't think it is worth trying to convince such a person of better choices. The actual gun in hand is the least of such a persons concern if they are facing a threat to their life.

 

[Kimber.45]

It is true that one needs training and practice. It is also true that a better gun will not make someone a better shooter if they do not train and practice.

 

[valorius]

Sure you can train a small person to use any weapon, including an F-15 fighter jet. The problem is most small females have little to no interest in "Proper technique", practice, or anything of the sort.

Getting them to at least learn to shoot can often be like pulling teeth.

Most people are just not "gun people" in the same sense we are here. They buy a gun, shoot it a couple times, then put it in a drawer or closet and forget about it until they really need it.

All the women in my family are this way. They only even own guns because i or another male family member pestered them that they should not be defenseless. None of them enjoys shooting very much, but all of them own guns, keep them loaded, and can use them. Hell, my dad who is an ex cop is the same way too. These people are perfect candidates for 995 carbines (or similar weapons).

My brother and i, a long since moved away cousin, and my 11yo godson are the "gun nuts" in the family. Of us, my brother is really the only one that is in the "carry a gun around the house with you" mode. I prefer a layered defense, which negates the need for having a pistol on my person in my home.

And by the way, the Armed Citizen column in American Rifleman every month is chock full of countless stories of poorly or untrained individuals successfully using firearms for self defense.

I do not believe one needs to be high speed low drag with their chosen weapon to defend themselves effectively. I do not believe this because there are just as many bad criminals as there are poorly trained home defenders.

However, if you run into a really tough hombre, your decision to not train might very well cost you your keister, gun or no gun. If you are facing a guy like that, you're still way better off with the carbine though. Much more accurate, much harder hitting, much faster shooting, and as a last ditch defense, it can be used as a club. (though i doubt a 995 would stand up to much HTH action at all)

 

[1911Tuner]

And by the way, the Armed Citizen column in American Rifleman every month is chock full of countless stories of poorly or untrained individuals successfully using firearms for self defense.

Bingo.

The Hi-Point is a gun. That satisfies the first criteria. Have a gun.

It chambers a serious cartridge. That's the second criteria. Have enough gun.

It seems to work...and the third criteria is met.

That puts it way ahead of 911, a prayer, and a frying pan when The Beast is kicking the door down.

In nature, the she-bear with cubs is one of the most dangerous animals in the woods. A scared, armed woman home alone with her little ones is subject to pull the trigger without blinking.

If all that is desired is a pistol to keep around for a little extra security, the .45 or 9mm Hi-Point is entirely adequate, assuming that the owner can operate it and is willing to pull the trigger when the flag flies. Are there "better" choices? Of course. You can spend more money for a (.45)1911 or a
(9mm) High Power...but to what end? They fire the same cartridge. They strike the same blow.
Mr. Pigsnot McNasty won't be laughing on the way to the ER because you shot him with a Hi-Point instead of a Baer Stinger.

 

[s2mason]

To say that a Hi Point pistol is as good as a HK P7 for CCW, or as good as a FN Five Seven for battlefield use, or as good as a target pistol for target use, or as good for home defense as a 18rd Ruger SR9 as mentioned above is just not accurate. To imply that a person with a niche use like one of those i just mentioned would be as well armed with a Hi Point as they would with it's much higher priced competitors is just not reasonable, and quite frankly, is dangerously bad advice IMO.

A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes. How can't it be? For what a Hi Point pistol or carbine is designed to be, it has NO peers in it's niche....it's niche being the cheapest possible entry price for a poor American to give himself a reliable means of multi-shot defense with a firearm.

I'd like to know how many "average citizens" that have conciously taken it apon themselves to be prepared for armed conflict, have suffered harm based on the failure of the gun they chose to defend themselves with.........?? Seriously............

 

[akadave]

I'd like to know how many "average citizens" that have conciously taken it apon themselves to be prepared for armed conflict, have suffered harm based on the failure of the gun they chose to defend themselves with.........?? Seriously............

While I cant site specific incidents. I have read about how people were either harmed or nearly harmed because of firearm failures.

Maybe you should have said those that were harmed because of the quality of the firearm? Then I have nothing.

 

[1911Tuner]

A Hi Point can be pressed into service as a CCW piece, or a home defense piece, or as a target piece, or even as a battlefield sidearm, but it's going to be at a huge disadvantage to weapons that are designed specifically for those purposes.

As to that...Farmer Joe's 16 gauge Fox Model B wasn't specifically designed for armed conflict, either...but it's fully up to the task of repelling boarders at the old homestead...and has done so countless times over the last few decades.

 

[valorius]

Farmer Joe's 16 gauge will indeed repel boarders in a pinch, but i am sure we both agree it would be a far less than optimal substitute for one of these in that role...



BTW, having read many of your posts 1911 Tuner, you are one seriously knowledgeable dude.

 

[1911Tuner]

But if that Model B Fox is all he's got, it beats 911 and a prayer...

 

[christcorp]

Mason; considering that approximately 95% of all threats that were stopped with a firearm involved, did so just by it's appearance, (No shots were fired), I'd say that the numbers would be pretty low on your scenario.

Valoris; you are correct that a very large number of gun owners are ill trained or prepared to defend themselves with a pistol. That is why I ALWAYS recommend to a person; if they don't play on shooting at least once every couple months; that they get a REVOLVER. Preferably in the 357 magnum caliber. It has the largest selection of ammo of ALL OTHER CALIBERS: From 380 strength all the way to 41 magnum strength. Also; revolvers are strictly point and click. (Double action revolvers of course). And being the gun is in a drawer, closet, etc... chances of it getting dirty or messed up is slim to non. With a revolver, they don't have to worry about chamber a round; if they don't leave it chambered. They don't have to worry about magazines, safeties, or any likely problems. With the revolver, it's point and click. And if it doesn't go bang, point and click again.

And that is where people in these discussions, tend to be way off the mark with their opinions and recommendations. They think about how THEY would react or act; and they think everyone else should do the same. Or at least they should be thinking the same way. Well, they don't. Nor should they. Some couldn't give a fart about competitions, tritium sights, 18 round magazine capacity, extra magazines, what the FBI or local police shoot, or any other topic that occupies 80% of the forums. They want a gun either for "HOME" defense, occasional plinking/fun, or both. They aren't going to be shooting 1 or more days a month. Maybe 1 of 2 times in a year. They don't watch the outdoor channel. They aren't obsessed with guns like many of us are. They just want a gun that goes bang when they need it to, and it hits what they are aiming at. And because they don't plan on using it much, they want a gun that won't set them back a lot of money. And the hi-point fills this requirement perfectly. And believe it or not, this group of people I'm describing, is the overwhelming majority of gun owners. The sampling on this and other forums is LESS than 5% of gun owners in the country. There's approximately 200 million guns; this is skewed because many of us have a lot of guns. But roughly 40% of all households have at least 1 gun. And the vast majority of those are not regular shooters. If these people are smart, they'll buy a S&W or similar 357 magnum revolver. If they aren't smart, and want a semi-auto, then they should get what feels and shoots right for them. And if it happens to be a hi-point, more power to them. Even if it's a millionaire. Just because they CAN afford more, doesn't mean they have to or should. But again; the vast majority of gun owners in this country should be buying/owning 357 magnum revolvers. If they aren't going to practice, then that's the gun to have when you need one.

 

[s2mason]

But roughly 40% of all households have at least 1 gun. And the vast majority of those are not regular shooters. If these people are smart, they'll buy a S&W or similar 357 magnum revolver. If they aren't smart, and want a semi-auto, then they should get what feels and shoots right for them. And if it happens to be a hi-point, more power to them. Even if it's a millionaire. Just because they CAN afford more, doesn't mean they have to or should. But again; the vast majority of gun owners in this country should be buying/owning 357 magnum revolvers. If they aren't going to practice, then that's the gun to have when you need one.

Excellent point. I talked with a guy at the jobsite today that owns a HiPoint, and he fits your scenario perfectly. He owns one gun for HD. He's been to a range exactly 1 time in his life (last year when he bought his HP 9mm). This guy appeared like he could afford a variety of choices ( I make this statement based on the fact that we were having the conversation next to his F-150 Platinum Edition, that he was driving to tow his very large speed boat out to the lake for the weekend......). In any case I asked him why he chose the HiPoint, and he said because the safety was simple enough for him not to have to fumble around with it in case of emergency. I told him he could have went with a revolver, and he agreed that he could have. The range allowed him to shoot the HiPoint and a few different revolvers and auto's, and he liked the way the HP shot, and it's simplicity. He hopes it never comes out of the nightstand, and he has no interest in target shooting or anything else gun related. He just wants to be prepared if something goes bump in the night.