The journey to making my $400 Walmart gun a precision rifle. Needing some advice

[Mstafford88]

I’m going to try to keep this as short as possible but I’m not sure how.

I bought my Remington 770 chambered in 270win back in 2009. I started reloading for it around 2010-2011 or so. Always had decent (sub MOA) groups at 100 but nothing crazy. Usually up to “my” standards for the most part.

Well I’m looking to tighten the 1/4” groups I get down to closer to one hole at 100yds. I currently have a “fallback” load but am trying to make this an “out-west, mule deer/elk/etc long range” gun. And with reloading I know it’s possible.

I purchased some 145gr Hornady ELDX projectiles and am starting the powder charge ladder using the book’s OAL of 3.210 (or so, my seating die is bottomed out)

Here’s the thing tho. I used the “blue loctite”method of attempting to find the lands. Did this with 2 modified bullets and averaged at ~3.48 OAL. That’s a pretty big jump to the lands.

So having said all that here’s the question: should I adjust a little closer to the lands before starting a true ladder test with powder? I feel like finding a powder node and adjusting the OAL THAT MUCH would make the powder charge inconsequential and I’d have to start from the beginning. But I also don’t know if my gun likes the bullet on the lands, a little off, or what.

For reference: current load is 60gr H4831 over 130gr interlock SP flat base. Doing what the book says at 3.18COAL. That’s my fallback. I’ve never messed with OAL, just followed the book. Never truly chased precision so this is new to me

 

[Mstafford88]

For reference here is my current load. (Fallback) at 100. 2 shots, adjusted the scope and shot 2 more. Consistent grouping. About 1/4-1/2”. Good, but not perfect like I’m looking for

 

[Mk-211]

The biggest problem with trying to get the bullet closer to the lands, you have less bullet in the case.

I have seen accuracy fall off due to this, as it's harder to keep the bullets straight/in line.

You'll have to find a happy medium, how far out can you seat them and still get good accuracy.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I gotta be frank here; if I had a $400 rifle that consistently put 2 (or 3) shots almost touching at 100 yards, I would buy a lottery ticket.

What I'm saying is that you may very well be at the best it can do.

 

[horsey300]

We had a 770 that we finally gave away, it could SHOOT though! Remington put in a lawyer proof jump to the lands, and I never chased em, ours was a .243, and with 4 different powders, and 6 (ish) different bullets, it would put the shots at 1/2 moa (5 round groups). That was pretty confidence inspiring at 500, 600, 700, 800 yds. Hated that trigger ridiculously though. My first question on your .270 quest, is are you sure that the 145 eldx will stabilize? Next point: that one day out west shot? Worry about wind bucking more than distance, 200-300 yds gets a LOT farther away with a 20 mph crosswind. My buddy's .270 was iffy with a 145, so the 140 sst or 150 ballistic tip are where it's at for him, it's hard to beat a flat base for precision though. Sometimes you get to decide between that "almost 1hole group" that the wind will tear up farther out, and the ".75 moa group that doesn't get as far off course". The sierra prohunters could put em as tight as you've ever seen, but the wind made them less fun lol. I'd say 1/4" outta that 770 is perfect enough for what you're doing that any long bullet load that could come even halfway close to that would be perfect enough.

 

[Mstafford88]

The biggest problem with trying to get the bullet closer to the lands, you have less bullet in the case.

I have seen accuracy fall off due to this, as it's harder to keep the bullets straight/in line.

You'll have to find a happy medium, how far out can you seat them and still get good accuracy.

Yea I’m kinda thinking that too. Gonna play with it a little later this evening. Set it half way between the book and what I found the lands to be and make sure I have a full amount of bullet in the entirety of the case neck. I believe that’s the more important factor in this case

 

[horsemen61]

For reference here is my current load. (Fallback) at 100. 2 shots, adjusted the scope and shot 2 more. Consistent grouping. About 1/4-1/2”. Good, but not perfect like I’m looking for
View attachment 1180031

2 Shots is a Pair not a group bare minimum by most standards is 3 shots also I find it interesting that your 770 is shooting that well I’ve never known of one to do that well but it seems yours does also at a certain point your just throwing good money at bad if my 770 Shot 3 at 100 touching consistently I’d stop chasing my tail that’s plenty accurate enough for hunting at reasonable distances

 

[Laphroaig]

Regardless of the distance to the lands, if it's a hunting rifle you're probably going to want to be no more than mag length.

if my 770 Shot 3 at 100 touching consistently I’d stop chasing my tail that’s plenty accurate enough for hunting at reasonable distances

Sounds like you are at a pretty good place now. Fiddle some more if you want, that's what we do.

 

[Blue68f100]

If your going to use this for a long range gun, why are you testing at 100 yrds. You need to shot a min 300, some say 500 yrds to really know whats going on. I would also run every thing through a crony because consistent from shot to shot is very important when it comes to long range shooting. I've seen it many times a good group at 100 yrds goes to shot gun pattern when you stretch your legs.

 

[crestoncowboy]

The biggest problem with trying to get the bullet closer to the lands, you have less bullet in the case.

I have seen accuracy fall off due to this, as it's harder to keep the bullets straight/in line.

You'll have to find a happy medium, how far out can you seat them and still get good accuracy.

Out of 20 or so ive reloaded for ive had nothing but trouble trying to get close to the lands and other than my 257 wby and 338 Lapua not a single one benefited from it. My Remington are usually too short in the mag box to take them. My 257 mountain the bullet would fall out by the time it hit the lands.....seemed like most guns didn't like it. And accuracy never lost anything but no marked improvement and if you do that you can't just load up a pile and use them in several guns.

I know others swear by that and neck sizing only.... but in my case it hasn't been worth the effort or keeping things separate.

I gotta be frank here; if I had a $400 rifle that consistently put 2 (or 3) shots almost touching at 100 yards, I would buy a lottery ticket.

What I'm saying is that you may very well be at the best it can do.

I was an adamant savage hater for 30 years. Bought my first on black Friday at cabelas for like 250 bucks. A 12 FV. Will touch holes at 100 every time. Ive shot several since and never saw one over MOA at 100 unless the mounts were loose. Lol. They are ugly and have limp stocks and the axis bolt is floppy.... but they all shoot pretty good. My nice Remington and winchesters I have put up from yesteryear would struggle to shoot as well with perfect handle handloads as the cheap barrel nut guns shoot with Tula.

 

[EricBu]

I’m going to try to keep this as short as possible but I’m not sure how.

I bought my Remington 770 chambered in 270win back in 2009. I started reloading for it around 2010-2011 or so. Always had decent (sub MOA) groups at 100 but nothing crazy. Usually up to “my” standards for the most part.

Well I’m looking to tighten the 1/4” groups I get down to closer to one hole at 100yds. I currently have a “fallback” load but am trying to make this an “out-west, mule deer/elk/etc long range” gun. And with reloading I know it’s possible.

I purchased some 145gr Hornady ELDX projectiles and am starting the powder charge ladder using the book’s OAL of 3.210 (or so, my seating die is bottomed out)

Here’s the thing tho. I used the “blue loctite”method of attempting to find the lands. Did this with 2 modified bullets and averaged at ~3.48 OAL. That’s a pretty big jump to the lands.

So having said all that here’s the question: should I adjust a little closer to the lands before starting a true ladder test with powder? I feel like finding a powder node and adjusting the OAL THAT MUCH would make the powder charge inconsequential and I’d have to start from the beginning. But I also don’t know if my gun likes the bullet on the lands, a little off, or what.

For reference: current load is 60gr H4831 over 130gr interlock SP flat base. Doing what the book says at 3.18COAL. That’s my fallback. I’ve never messed with OAL, just followed the book. Never truly chased precision so this is new to me

I did a similar thing with a big box savage in .308. Bought it at Cal Ranch for 199.00. It shot ok...but not great. Dropped it in a 400.00 oryx chassis which replaces the bottom metal and stock giving you standard magazines longer than the built in one (so I could load longer), tuned the trigger, put a ASR hate brake on it, added a Leupold Mark AR scope...and now it shoots .5 MOA.

 

[Mstafford88]

We had a 770 that we finally gave away, it could SHOOT though! Remington put in a lawyer proof jump to the lands, and I never chased em, ours was a .243, and with 4 different powders, and 6 (ish) different bullets, it would put the shots at 1/2 moa (5 round groups). That was pretty confidence inspiring at 500, 600, 700, 800 yds. Hated that trigger ridiculously though. My first question on your .270 quest, is are you sure that the 145 eldx will stabilize? Next point: that one day out west shot? Worry about wind bucking more than distance, 200-300 yds gets a LOT farther away with a 20 mph crosswind. My buddy's .270 was iffy with a 145, so the 140 sst or 150 ballistic tip are where it's at for him, it's hard to beat a flat base for precision though. Sometimes you get to decide between that "almost 1hole group" that the wind will tear up farther out, and the ".75 moa group that doesn't get as far off course". The sierra prohunters could put em as tight as you've ever seen, but the wind made them less fun lol. I'd say 1/4" outta that 770 is perfect enough for what you're doing that any long bullet load that could come even halfway close to that would be perfect enough.

Makes sense. So I’ve shot quite a few different bullets out of this gun and only stopped load development when I got my decent, 1/2” MOA or better at 100. But the only issue I really have at the moment is that at 200-300yds the hits aren't even as consistent as my 300blk at the same distance (AR platform). Which makes me wonder. ADHD also makes me hyper obsess…. Good and bad with this hobby lol.

And Blue: 100yds is my starting point and where I typically sight stuff in at my place for where I hunt. I CAN get 250+ yard shots but it’s rare. Want to be prepared and don’t want to have to develop a new load for long range at the last minute

 

[Mstafford88]

one thing I’m getting soon is a Boyd’s at-one thumb hole. Beautiful and more ergonomic. Minimize the “me” factor as well

 

[horsey300]

Makes sense. So I’ve shot quite a few different bullets out of this gun and only stopped load development when I got my decent, 1/2” MOA or better at 100. But the only issue I really have at the moment is that at 200-300yds the hits aren't even as consistent as my 300blk at the same distance (AR platform). Which makes me wonder. ADHD also makes me hyper obsess…. Good and bad with this hobby lol.

And Blue: 100yds is my starting point and where I typically sight stuff in at my place for where I hunt. I CAN get 250+ yard shots but it’s rare. Want to be prepared and don’t want to have to develop a new load for long range at the last minute

Gonna say that if you can't keep that load together at 200 or 300 yds, a dedicated long range load ain't gonna fix much, not trying to be rude, but if you're .5-.75 at 100 and it starts coming apart (2.5<) at 200, then it ain't been tweaked right, have you shot 5-10 rd groups at 100? Do you get vertical stringing farther out? Sounds like you're not in a node.

 

[Mstafford88]

Gonna say that if you can't keep that load together at 200 or 300 yds, a dedicated long range load ain't gonna fix much, not trying to be rude, but if you're .5-.75 at 100 and it starts coming apart (2.5<) at 200, then it ain't been tweaked right, have you shot 5-10 rd groups at 100? Do you get vertical stringing farther out? Sounds like you're not in a node.

Typically do 3-4 shot groups and if I’M on par, they are cloverleafed. Those above were just double checking the scope for hunting season. I’m going to do some more 200 or so yard testing on paper (I like the instant gratification of steel and tend to shoot 4” or smaller plates at 2-300) but imo if I’m not hitting them every single time, it’s either me or the ammo. Thinking the new stock will help to determine that too.

I just know that typically boat tails, especially the ELDX is designed for stretching out if I need to so I figured I’d try it out. If my gun hates it, I still got a fallback to tweak if necessary

 

[41 Mag]

For the most part when I develop a load I could really care less how close to the lands I am. I am usually running them through stock magazines and if they don't fit they ain't gonna work. I load 98% for hunting rifles and things need to function.

So as mentioned above you really should give the 200yd work up a try. That is where I really tune things in. I like to set up the chrony and dial in the velocity I am looking for, usually in the mid 2800fps range with most of my rifles. Once I am there I will move out to 200 yards with the most promising loads from 100 and with the best lowest trending ES. From there I start bumping the seating depth in using dial calipers and one of the Hornaday comparators set for the caliber I am shooting. I try to keep things in small increments of .003 - .005" so I don't jump over a node in the process. Usually things will start to shrink, then open back up again. I like to find something that will hold together nicely, and then move the range out to 250, then 300 yards. If they are still grouping good there I call it good.

At this point I am usually comfortable with the load shooting in the rifle. That said I will also make sure that I test in different weather conditions to check the velocity and grouping in higher or lower temps, no wind to up around 15'ish or more, high and lower humidity. Basically I will shoot the daylights out of it to verify it holds together. As mentioned the last thing you want is to have the thought in your head it will only to find out in a crustal moment that it doesn't.

For the .270, I have a 130, a 140, and a 150gr load that all shoot well out of our Rem 700. The difference is I have to adjust the scope for each load, but once set it is golden out to 300+yards. I rarely will shoot that far other than reaching out for a fat feral hog, but it has happened plenty of times. The velocities are all running about the same so the hold over is pretty close as well. Most things can easily be adjusted for using the fine plex cross hair on the Leupold scope.

I try to pick powders that will fill the case to the base of the neck or are slightly compressed. The latest I worked up is for the 140gr Accubond, and is using Ramshot Magnum. The 150's are limited and use the 150gr Nosler Solid Base over H4350, and the 130's Solid Base load is the odd ball, it uses IMR-3031. I know it isn't the norm but it flat out shoots great and just works well.

Don't be afraid to get off those lands. I have a couple of rifles which shoot best back .050 - .080 off, and a close friend has a 300 RUM that we backed off .130" off. Sometimes it's better to be back than up close.

 

[jmr40]

I have no idea what the OAL is on any of my loads. I load the 1st bullet just as far out as possible to fit the magazine. If it chambers without hitting the lands that is my OAL. I can't possibly load it any longer and that is as close as I'm going to get to the lands unless I want a single shot. If it hits the lands I seat it a bit deeper until it doesn't.

I then proceed to load up a batch of ammo at that length. If they shoot up to my standards, then I'm good to go. If not, I can always go back and seat the bullets a bit deeper and do some more experimenting. But I've never had a load that wasn't acceptable doing that.

Those rifles often shoot quite well for their price. But I'd not throw money at the rifle trying to improve it.

 

[Mstafford88]

I think what I’ll end up doing is finding a node at or about the factory (maybe ever so slightly longer) OAL then scoot it forward here and there. You’re right tho, my rifle didn’t mind an OAL of 3.18 on another bullet so jump isn’t a bad thing necessarily

 

[LiveLife]

Remington 770 chambered in 270win back in 2009. I started reloading for it around 2010-2011 or so. Always had decent (sub MOA) groups at 100 but nothing crazy ... looking to tighten the 1/4” groups I get down to closer to one hole at 100yds ... OAL of 3.210 ... 3.48 OAL. That’s a pretty big jump to the lands.

Have you verified the 2 shot 1/4" groups at 100 yards with larger sample size as in 5-10 shot groups on repeated range sessions?

If so, you can start just off the lands and incrementally seat the bullet deeper (Say by .005") and see if group size decreases.

And as many members would post, sample size of groups should/need to be large enough to verify that extremes of group size is actually decreasing (Full range of barrel vibration/harmonics/muzzle whip) and not just capturing smallest sample size.

I have started load development of .223 62 gr SS109/RMR 69/75 gr BTHP and takeaway from my 10,000+ 22LR comparison testing is often my 5-10 shot groups started out as two holes touching each other or 3-4 very tight cloverleaf until 10-50 round groups are shot to better represent totality of barrel harmonics/vibration (As muzzle moves around when bullet exits), initial smaller 2-4 shot groups eventually got larger.

 

[Walkalong]

Have you verified the 2 shot 1/4" groups at 100 yards with larger sample size as in 5-10 shot groups on repeated range sessions?

Or at least more .25ish groups.

 

[Mstafford88]

Have you verified the 2 shot 1/4" groups at 100 yards with larger sample size as in 5-10 shot groups on repeated range sessions?

If so, you can start just off the lands and incrementally seat the bullet deeper (Say by .005") and see if group size decreases.

And as many members would post, sample size of groups should/need to be large enough to verify that extremes of group size is actually decreasing (Full range of barrel vibration/harmonics/muzzle whip) and not just capturing smallest sample size.

I have started load development of .223 62 gr SS109/RMR 69/75 gr BTHP and takeaway from my 10,000+ 22LR comparison testing is often my 5-10 shot groups started out as two holes touching each other or 3-4 very tight cloverleaf until 10-50 round groups are shot to better represent totality of barrel harmonics/vibration (As muzzle moves around when bullet exits), initial smaller 2-4 shot groups eventually got larger.

Yep, usually 3-4 shot groups. Those those in the pic are just verification for the scope before season vs finding a load. I’ve made the mistake of shooting when it’s hot at times too. Not good for groups especially with the factory stock. That will soon change too.

So to the lands leaves a little bit of the bullet out of the bottom of the case neck so I’m not getting full tension. I guess my main question was do I find a powder node THEN OAL or vice versa?

 

[horsey300]

Yep, usually 3-4 shot groups. Those those in the pic are just verification for the scope before season vs finding a load. I’ve made the mistake of shooting when it’s hot at times too. Not good for groups especially with the factory stock. That will soon change too.

So to the lands leaves a little bit of the bullet out of the bottom of the case neck so I’m not getting full tension. I guess my main question was do I find a powder node THEN OAL or vice versa?

Only because you've stipulated 2x the 3-4 shot group, I'll put it directly this way: go shoot a 10 round group. As far as finding a node varminterrorr and others have explained the OCW method quite well, if you do a forum search for OCW, you SHOULD find a much better (better written and in depth explanation) than you're going to get from me tonight, but essentially you load your test batch (in .270 I'd load in .3-.5 gr increments) from minimum to max charge weights. Then shoot them at separate areas of the target (so you can measure and mark) somewhere along the ladder you should see 3ish sequential groups (54.2, 54.6, 60 for example) that show almost ZERO vertical dispersion, that's your node, doesn't matter if you have a group at 53.8 that measures .75" if the top 1 and bottom one ARE the .75". So if your current load shows a vertical dispersion of .5" but you find the "node" that shows a group size 1" with only .25" vertical dispersion across all groups, I would rely on the 54.6 (see above example) and tweak seating depth (if needed) from there. The vertical stringing shows inconsistent velocities (large standard deviations and extreme spread) I know you don't have a chronograph but find a node and some day shoot over a chronograph, then compare it with the tiny/vertical group, and you'll see the difference. As distance stretches, the inconsistencies will show themselves as I think you're finding with your current load. But definitely test your current load with a 10 rd group, then compare with a node group x10 and check your notes along the way. It's part of the addictio....fun of getting into handloading.

 

[Mstafford88]

Only because you've stipulated 2x the 3-4 shot group, I'll put it directly this way: go shoot a 10 round group. As far as finding a node varminterrorr and others have explained the OCW method quite well, if you do a forum search for OCW, you SHOULD find a much better (better written and in depth explanation) than you're going to get from me tonight, but essentially you load your test batch (in .270 I'd load in .3-.5 gr increments) from minimum to max charge weights. Then shoot them at separate areas of the target (so you can measure and mark) somewhere along the ladder you should see 3ish sequential groups (54.2, 54.6, 60 for example) that show almost ZERO vertical dispersion, that's your node, doesn't matter if you have a group at 53.8 that measures .75" if the top 1 and bottom one ARE the .75". So if your current load shows a vertical dispersion of .5" but you find the "node" that shows a group size 1" with only .25" vertical dispersion across all groups, I would rely on the 54.6 (see above example) and tweak seating depth (if needed) from there. The vertical stringing shows inconsistent velocities (large standard deviations and extreme spread) I know you don't have a chronograph but find a node and some day shoot over a chronograph, then compare it with the tiny/vertical group, and you'll see the difference. As distance stretches, the inconsistencies will show themselves as I think you're finding with your current load. But definitely test your current load with a 10 rd group, then compare with a node group x10 and check your notes along the way. It's part of the addictio....fun of getting into handloading.

I’m glad you explained what you meant by vertical dispersion and why it’s important! I’ll take that advice and return with results. I think you were on the thread with my 300blk development. You can see MY standards. 3-4holes inside each other. Hopefully I can get this the same way.

Btw 300blk is hitting on top of itself at 250 or so cross legged off the back of the tailgate of my truck.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I’m glad you explained what you meant by vertical dispersion and why it’s important! I’ll take that advice and return with results. I think you were on the thread with my 300blk development. You can see MY standards. 3-4holes inside each other. Hopefully I can get this the same way.

Btw 300blk is hitting on top of itself at 250 or so cross legged off the back of the tailgate of my truck.

I hope you do well in the field. I have a vested interest in your success (looking forward to some of that jerky)

 

[Mstafford88]

I hope you do well in the field. I have a vested interest in your success (looking forward to some of that jerky)

Yes sir!! Just gotta get the wife to let me out of the house . Oh and I got the 357 bullets in so making up a batch for my dad on that asap