The Lady Gun?!?!

[skeptiq]

So after having my handgun for a week now, my wife (who wasn't as stoked about the idea of handgun(s) in the house) actually mentioned she would like me to teach her to shoot, and how it might not be a bad idea if she got a handgun to. I guess she got over her aprehension when no one got shot just because we have a gun.

I digress... which brings me to a quandry. I was raised around handguns / rifles / shotguns all my life. Up until now, I have had limited encounters with shooting handguns; as a result I am a noob. Which is fine, except, I don't know a whole lot (but thanks to THG, I am learning quick, so thanks peeps). My question is: what would be a good starter / purse handgun for my wife? I would like her to have something big enough for protection, but small enough for the purse.

I have a 9mm S&W Sigma, but after getting my CCW, I will most likely be getting a handgun better suited for CC (more than likely I will pocket carry). My wife will be going through CCW classes / training with me. I haven't even decided which CC I will use when that time comes, let alone something for her. I would like something that she can feel comfortable shooting.

Does anyone know how the recoil diff would be between S&W 9mm Sigma and:
Beretta 3032 Tomcat (.32 acp)
Kel Tec PF-9 (9mm luger)
Kel Tec P-32 (.32 acp)
S&W 442 revolver (.38 special)
Taurus 85 revolver (.38 special)

Of the above guns, are there any that should be totally ruled out (mainly asking about .32). I just want to make sure if she (we) are in a situation the handgun would do it's job. This is also my sort of short list for CC. So this is kind of a dual question. So I am open to any and all suggestions / comments.

Thanks in advace!
Ben

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't want to come off as harsh when I say this, but remember a couple of things.

Just because a gun is smaller doesn't mean it's easier to shoot. Small guns are EXPERT guns. Small guns are harder to aim, because there's less distance between the sights, have more recoil because of the smaller mass, and have lower capacity. If these guns are carried at all, it should be by people who are well trained and experienced enough to make the most of them.

Take her to a range, and let her shoot some guns of various sizes and calibers. You might both be surprised by what she shoots well. Just for example, when the 1911 was designed, the average American male was a lot shorter than now, and they fit (or can be made to fit) smaller hands. Newer guns like the M&P come with interchangeable backstraps. You may want to seriously consider that a somewhat larger gun would be more shootable, and almost as easy to conceal.

If at all possible, it should be kept on her body. A purse is a terrible place to carry, since too many things can happen to something not in her immediate control. (Thinking mostly of the recent incident when a two-year-old got grandma's gun out of her purse in a discount store.)

As far as the caliber question, we love to fight about this stuff. We are full of opinions. Look in the subforums and you will find some good mudfights. Here's my humble, isolated opinion, for which I am solely responsible, which holds no more weight than any other on this forum. There is no longer any reason to carry anything smaller than a 9mm. It is the caliber which reached the minimum standards for penetration under most circumstances. I USED to say a .380 is ok for people who want something more concealable, but now, with so many options in compact and sub-compact guns, I find it difficult to tell someone that .380s and .32s are acceptable, when they can get very small guns in 9mm, .357 Sig, .40, and .45 ACP/GAP.

While I'm here, I also despise your Sigma. I recommend, both of you go to a rental range, spend $150, shoot a variety of models and calibers, and start with what YOU BOTH SHOOT BEST. Over time you may change your minds.

 

[tasco 74]

my spousal unit has her dad's old colt .38 det spl snubbie he carried here in town when he was THE cop.............. she likes it real well and shoots it sometimes with ammo i reload for it......


LIFE IS SHORT.....

 

[Haywood]

Take her to a Range that rents Guns and turn her loose. Let her try a bunch . Find one that is comfortable for her to shot good. If it doesn't feel good and she can't shoot it good ........well your married you know what is going to happen. Believe me it will be cheaper and better this way.

 

[skeptiq]

I don't want to come off as harsh when I say this, but remember a couple of things.

Just about everything you said makes sense... as a self proclaimed noob, I appreciate the candor.

While I'm here, I also despise your Sigma.

Do you have a particular reason based on first hand knowledge or just "I heard from a friend who had one?" I would be curious to know more than just a generic statement.

I have read plenty good and bad about the gun, however, as I have scoured several boards on the net, it seems like most "haters" have never owned a Sigma let alone fired one first hand (not saying this is the case with you, just my observation). As stated I have had the gun about a week and been to the range once so I can't say anything much for sure, but so far I like it a lot.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[mljdeckard]

I had a 1st gen .40. It needed three trips to the gunsmith to feed any ammo, the front sight fell out, and it has a super heavy trigger. It was one of the first handguns I bought, and I bought it completely based on how it looked, I knew nothing at all about how it actually shot. The new ones might be fantastic, but I'll never know. There are way too many good guns out there for me to see if S&W got it right the THIRD time.

 

[Butter]

Skep,

MLJ is basically correct, if coming off a bit hard nosed, but is certainly understandable when you read a lot of the same questions that really no one can answer for you. I would also recommend taking a class if you can at the local range if they allow you to rent a pistol for the class. This will give you and your wife the functional basics of what you need a pistol to do and be a primer of sorts to find out what may fit you and/or her best.

Small guns are harder to handle, though they fit nice. And everyone is different. I have small hands and know women who can fit their paws better than I can on the grip of a gun. That is also why, that despite shooting other Sigs and liking them, other than a 239, I can't quite reach the first double action trigger pull. So no Sigs for me.

In any case, I think you have to do a few things here: 1) Layout a budget for the gun so that the price range will dictate what you can own; 2) Rent or take a class since if you are really thinking is SD terms, a lot of gizmos and levers on a handgun may not be appropriate without a lot of training to use them well if you have to; and 3) Recognize that good training and practice are paramount. This means that the price of the gun is the least of the expenses you should consider in the whole of gun ownership which should include safes at home, ammunition costs, holsters...you will need them for classes, safety glasses, ear protection, and gear bags. My personal feeling is that if you practice well you will probably pay two-to-five times, depending on the cost of the gun, in ammunition and range fees/membership than you will have for your brand spanking new side arm in the course of a year.

The fact is that someone else's gun is not yours and that someone else's like or dislike of said gun doesn't do you that much good if you don't try before you buy. And when considering buying for women, as in the case of jewelry and clothes, so it is with guns, let her decide.

 

[Highland Ranger]

I've always liked the Lady Smith version of the Model 60

View specifications here

Classic revolver, great first gun. Use 38 specials for first learning and practice. Can graduate up to magnums or not.

 

[skeptiq]

I had a 1st gen .40. It needed three trips to the gunsmith to feed any ammo, the front sight fell out, and it has a super heavy trigger. It was one of the first handguns I bought, and I bought it completely based on how it looked, I knew nothing at all about how it actually shot. The new ones might be fantastic, but I'll never know. There are way too many good guns out there for me to see if S&W got it right the THIRD time.

Fair enough. I was a little concerned with the trigger pull, however, even after the 80 rounds I put though it already, there is a noticable change in smoothness. To be honest, I actually like the fact that it's a little heavy especially since there is no manual safety (I know there is the "trigger safety" but I really don't consider that much of a safety at all). I am 100% sure I will be buying more handguns both auto and revolver... So I'll reserve my judgement on the Sigma until I have something else to compare it to.

Thanks for the input.

Also, regarding purse carry... that makes more and more sense the more I think about it. Way to many chances for shinanigans. So maybe I'll suggest the cons to her and strongly suggest she carry on her person. At the bare minimum, she will be trained to shoot whatever handguns I (we) have in the house.

Thanks again,
Ben

 

[skeptiq]

Ha the ironic thing about "The Lady Smith" is that my last name is Smith. LOL!

Points well taken. I can already attest to the investment in the gun vs investment on range time / ammo / training. When I do things I tend to do them right. My goal is to have my CC, take some SD training classes / courses, go to the range for practice and be as pro-active as possible all while being as safe as possible.

Speaking of safety... I have a fire proof safe for storage, but it's not specifically a gun safe. Are there any issues with that?

Also, for those that have "nightstand" guns, do you have kids? How do you keep a gun close and ready while being safe with children? That is one thing that I am having issues tring to figure out.

Thanks again,
Ben

 

[mljdeckard]

When you get some training, a lot of things fall into place. It forces you to rethink all of the process. I recommend in the meantime, read a couple of books, (she probably won't find them nearly as interesting as you do,) but just for example,

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Bo...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227201765&sr=1-1

and

http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Try to catch a few episodes of Tom Gresham's Personal Defense TV, stuff like that.

I glossed over the other questions, as far as the safe goes, it's probably as good as anything else. I have a steel locker bolted into the sidewall of my closet. I have more faith in the fact that it's nearly impossible to rip it out quickly with a prybar as I do in its construction. One day I'd love to custom build my basement with a good safe built into a recess, but I'm not there yet. you may want to consider one of the fingertip combination handgun boxes you can keep handy.

I have a full spread of kids, some are old enough to handle guns responsibly, some aren't. Ideally, I should be able to leave a loaded gun out on the kitchen table, and they won't even look at it when they walk by. They aren't there yet. My primary home gun is my Remington pump shotgun. (Another mudball fight we love is that when you can, you should always grab the rifle/shotgun instead of the pistol, but save that one for later,) I keep the magazine loaded, with an empty chamber. There is a safety button on the trigger guard which keeps the slide from being racked if it's already cocked. This way, it's much more difficult for a kid to pick it up and play with it. My wife's primary is an old M-1 carbine with two magazines in a pouch on the butt. Ideally your defensive guns should be chambered and ready, but when you have kids around who aren't ready for that, you will have to compromise somewhere. (Especially when they are as crafty and sneaky as mine.)

 

[skeptiq]

Awesome, thanks for the advise mlj! What channel is Tom Gresham on???

Ben

 

[mljdeckard]

He just had a shakeup, and I just moved, I'm still figuring out my cable channels.

http://www.guntalk.com/site.php?pageID=15&newsID=51

But he has good segments from Massad Ayoob, Clint Smith, female instructors, etc that make a lot of sense. He's done segments on classes exclusive for women, how a couple in a house can work together to defend it, things like that. My wife even gets into it a little bit.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Handgun Safe Recommendations

Look up Residential Security Container for oodles of advice on gun safes.

Regarding "fireproof" safes. They aren't, more like fire resistant and most are made for documents. The way they get their fire resistance is by using moisture impregnated insulation which gases off during a fire to give the safe a few more minutes exposure.

Problem is, the liquid is always evaporating, and moisture is bad for guns. Do not store guns in a document fire safe.

Re Kids: There are many mechanisms for keeping a "nightstand" gun safe around kids. AMSEC makes small safes with simplex locks that can be bolted to the floor, under a nightstand or to the bed frame. There are also single handgun safes with biometric locks, electronic locks and the like.

There are also some trigger locks that unlock with a ring of some sort. Not sure what they are called, maybe someone can jump in with that - Masad Ayoob used to promote that as the method for speed of access. I'd be worried about the kids getting the ring and wearing lame jewelery is, well, lame.

I use the Amsec simplex model because it doesn't need batteries or a particular finger to open.

Not ideal to have a gun that needs to be unlocked for use, but really the only acceptable compromise when there are kids in the house. Leaving a loaded handgun anywhere kids could get it is a recipe for tragedy.

Sample of Simplex Locking Safe
Sample of Electronic Lock
Sample of Biometric Locking Safe

I found the ring trigger lock mechanism. Apparently it is a magnet and looks like it requires some gun smithing to install. Here is their site. Don't think I like the idea.

Looks like they have one for a 1911, drop in parts, no smithing. (still don't like it, I have teenagers and they have magnets)

 

[mljdeckard]

Ok, found "Pursuit" channel, it's "Hunt" on directv, 608, set my tivo to record it all.

http://www.pursuitchannel.com/

 

[jfrey]

If I were in your position right now, I personally would get her the Taurus 85. Simple to operate, won't jam, you can shoot it out of a purse, easy to handle, price friendly, manageable recoil, reliable, will shoot +P ammo. What else can I say. I have one and it has one of the best triggers I have ever seen on a revolver. You can pay more for a S&W, but why? No safeties to mess with, easy to load, inexpensive to shoot, no slides to rack, no mags to drop out. You can even get one model with pink grips, if she is into that.

 

[zombienerd]

I use the Amsec simplex model because it doesn't need batteries or a particular finger to open.

I am planning on getting one of the more expensive Biometric nightstand safes. The cheap ones don't last long from what I hear.

However, the "Particular finger" argument is bunk for most of the models out there. All the ones I've looked at hold at least 20 fingerprints for "opening".. Meaning both you and the spouse can scan all 10 fingers, and any one of them will open the safe.

The one I'm planning on getting holds up to 50...

You just have to follow the directions well when you first set them up, and not leave them in the programming mode, you don't want the kids "trying" it, and accidentally adding them to the matrix, and the safe opening.

I also recommend if you do the biometric route, you get one that has a wall adapter, and put that wall adapter into a UPS (Battery backup for computers and such), so you're never without power to the unit... I couldn't imagine having someone break into my house, and the batteries be dead, or if the power was out..... Redundancy is extremely important. You don't want to have to fumble for keys in that critical moment.

 

[sherman123]

i agree that purse carry is a horrible method. It isn't necessarily the best either but if she doesnt like carrying on her waist then you can try convincing her to pocket carry. I pocket carry 24/7 and it's completely concealed and so comfortable you wouldn't know its there if you hadn't put it in your own pocket. Another plus is you can have your hand in your pocket resting on the grips and its ready to draw if the need came up.

 

[skeptiq]

You guys (and gals) on here are incredible! Thanks for all the info, I'll look at all the suggestions and make a trip to amazon for some reading... grab a tv guide from some extra stuff, and start looking into some proper safes.

Thanks again!
Ben

 

[ugaarguy]

THR Moderator Emeritus PAX (Kathy Jackson) has a great website: www.corneredcat.com . She has great info for all gun newbies, but focuses on handguns, and women learning about handguns in particular. Kathy has also been a handgun instructor in Seattle for years. If you really want to make her angry get your wife a tiny handgun. Everything mljdeckard said about small guns is spot on.

I had a 1st gen .40. It needed three trips to the gunsmith to feed any ammo, the front sight fell out, and it has a super heavy trigger. It was one of the first handguns I bought, and I bought it completely based on how it looked, I knew nothing at all about how it actually shot. The new ones might be fantastic, but I'll never know.

Other than the heavy trigger, the new ones ARE FANTASTIC. The third gen Sigma is an entirely different gun than your first gen. The first gen was a blatant Glock copy: The third gen has fourteen of it's own patents. Since you admit won't even shoot a new Sigma your opinion on them means nothing. Take a new one for a test drive. Until then, quit bashing them based on experience with a gun that's the same in name only.

There are way too many good guns out there for me to see if S&W got it right the THIRD time.

Please name every other US or European made semi-auto that can be purchased NIB for the same or less money than a Sigma.

 

[Highland Ranger]

However, the "Particular finger" argument is bunk for most of the models out there.

Have you used biometrics before?

Even the best hardware and software only gets into the 90's percentage wise for correct recognition. Wet hands? Just out out of the shower and pruney?

Hmmmm and it needs a battery?

Simple mechanical lock is best and if for some reason you are incapacitated and can't get your hand over to the safe, you can tell someone else the combo so they can go and get the gun.

So I just gave you three reasons to NOT get a biometric device:

- batteries run out

- recognition doesn't always work, although it is better than it was and certainly buying higher end helps

- there may be scenarios where you needs to temporarily pass the "key" (simplex combo) to someone who wouldn't normally have access

I think they are more expensive as well . . . . so a fourth reason although less important than the other three.

 

[mljdeckard]

I got exactly what I paid for. I see no reason whatsoever to give it another try. I have found many other guns that work better. Like I said, this business is too competitive for second chances. The fact that it was a different generation is something the OP can decide is relevant or not.

The next time I bought a used Glock for less than a NIB Sigma, and had no problems at all.

 

[RKBABob]

Okay, you're catching a lot of flack for asking the dreaded "What gun for a woman?" question...

I highly recommend the S&W 442... I have one! Of course, the reason I got it was because of its light weight, and ability to disappear in my pocket. But if I was going to carry it in a purse... or a man bag, I'd opt for the 640 because its a bit heavier to help with recoil, and weight isn't so much of an issue when the pistol isn't actively pulling down your pants.

Also, if I was carrying in a bag, I'd go for a 3 or 4 inch barrel, since size isn't so much of an issue when its outside of your pants.

The number one reason to recommend a revolver: Interchangeable grips to fit every hand size and finger length, followed by being able to use any ammo from mild to super hot +P.

 

[skeptiq]

Whoa, didn't mean to stir anything up. We are all certainly allowed to have our own views on things. As with any consumer product, if you've had a bad experience with one, you are not likely to go back. I have no issues with that. I can appreciate other views even I don't subscribe to them.

Thus far I have been more than satisfied with my Sigma and and so long as it does what it's supposed we'll have a long happy life together... As for the wife, on the other hand... just kidding...

Ben

 

[mljdeckard]

You seem perfectly capable of deciding things on your own to me.