The New York problem

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Yellowfin

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I'm trying to do some legal research on why NY is so darn problematic on getting their gun laws struck. It doesn't help, of course, that we have only had Heller for a year or so and thus far the only court challenge based on it is the half baked Maloney case. But apparently the problem lies further back, much further, yes? OK, so I need an education on the matter: what's the lineage of court decisions in the state and 2nd Circuit which keep NY so iron clad screwed up?
 
New York's gun laws come from bigotry. NYC has the Sullivan Act, which was passed in 1911 to prevent Italian immigrants from owning handguns because they were considered too dangerous to own handguns. Upstate NY's handgun laws passed in 1936. Same general premise - though this time, I think it was to prevent black people from owning guns. At a minimum, I would at least like to see the availability of a non-resident pistol permit in NYS. Ideally, I'd like reciprocity with my Texas CHL.
 
I was under the impression that outside of NYC, New Yawk's gun laws were pretty favorable to at least the PRC.
 
Not for handguns, it's not. You cannot bring a handgun into NYS if you do not have a NYS or NYC permit, which are issued only to residents of NYS and/or NYC. To do so is a felony. You can bring handguns into CA, they just can't be AWs or have a hi-cap mag.
 
They have a state AWB, you have to have the pistol license before entering the state with your pistols and have each and every one of them listed on the license and essentially resold to you by an in-state FFL, and numerous other odious laws. It's utterly dispicable, and the NYC jerks keep trying to make it worse. The courts do nothing but uphold this crap time and time again, apparently. I want to know how and why.
 
I want to know how and why.

Because NYS and California are testing grounds for gun laws. The anti-gun portion of our government uses these states to get a foothold. Once they get the laws passed there and get some court rulings they can then work on passing them else ware.

Heller isn't going to help. In my opinion Heller hurt the cause. Heller turned a right into a privilege by making it OK to infringe on gun owners.
 
I am not real thrilled with the nunchuks case but its possible the SC could use that case to incorporate.
 
The NY and NYC Problems are very easy to solve with a old fashioned American Tatic.

Moving Van or rental trailer and moving to a more gun friendly state.
 
The NY and NYC Problems are very easy to solve with a old fashioned American Tatic.

Moving Van or rental trailer and moving to a more gun friendly state.
That doesn't work when they send their politicians to Washington to make the same laws apply to us. Also doesn't work when they use party pressure to make state lawmakers tow their line in exchange for funding. Further breaks down when people from CA, NY, and MA move to other states and try to push their way on everyone else--ask anyone in CO, NM, and WA how that's going.

Fleeing the problem is nice temporarily but it isn't solving it. We need to eradicate the gun control movement instead of fleeing from it.
 
Im not talking about fleeing.

Im talking about making your postion count by MOVING OUT and pernamently removing your tax income, property taxes, sales taxes, expenses, basically all of your money. And going to another State and make a new start in a place where there are NONE of these "Problems" being discussed here.

Such states do exist in the United States of America.

If NY State or/and Washington DC suffers enough population loss to other places where there are no problems they cannot really support thier current standards and budgets can they?

I backed up my words with action in my own life. Maryland was not a tenable position to live in because you had many restrictions on what you could or could not do. Well I moved to another state and left all of that behind.

For example... Here I can pick up a weapon at a store, pay for it and go home with it to do what I please with it within the very easy to understand laws related to home defense, hunting, CCW, range visits etc etc etc etc.

No problem.

By the way, My house with several acres was totaled valued at less than 35 thousand dollars and all paid off free and clear. A similar house in DC or NY or MD would have started at 250K or more. California would have asked 650K for it at the time.

No, no fleeing. Just start somewhere with a new life and enjoy your freedom as you ought to be enjoying instead of worrying about what "THEY" are trying to do to you.

Now the only problems we have here is joining the rest of the other states removing the last of the old Slave laws that are or were in the books in our area since the end of the Civil War. Something that no longer is revelant today.
 
The problem in NY, NYC in particular, is apathy.

Most in NYC care nothing about guns, and in general, don't care about anything that doesn't directly or obviously affect them. If people started giving a crap and making the government (our employees) do their job right, things would change fast.
 
Good info, but that explains the population and legislative problem, not what I'm looking for. I'm asking about the case law structure in both the New York state courts and the US 2nd Circuit which upholds these laws rather than voiding them. What cases, dating back I guess to where it started with the Sullivan Law in 1911 (or before?) have been used as the precedent to avoid striking down these absolutely horrid laws?

Nationally, I know that in 1833 Barron v. Baltimore said that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the states, hence the need for the 14th Amendment, and then when we got it there were still the Slaughterhouse cases then US v. Cruikshank and Presser v. Illinois which stated that the 2nd Amendment wasn't an individual right AND didn't apply to the states. So there was until the Heller decision in 2008 a span of over 100 years where states such as NY could say "What Second Amendment? We can do what we want, and we don't like you having guns and you have no standing to change that." California used this in lots of cases, the most well known of which being Hickman v. Block, Fresno Rifle v. Van de Kaamp, and Silveira v. Lockyer, all of which were terrible rulings but hinged on the federal stuff...AND prior cases that said the same. After a while they could simply quote their own rulings, no matter how old or how bad, and all attempts to right the wrongs are squelched by stare decisis. This problem has been removed in the 9th Circuit thanks to Nordyke v. King. Thus far the 2nd circuit doesn't have an incorporating decision. I'm inquiring as to determine what the mechanics of getting one will be, what we need to do with it, and what's standing in the way.

It has been an open discussion in CA, and thanks to cooperative effort with lawyers, local activists, and several contributing organizations they've been able to get stuff going that simply doesn't get done with the same 5 people who are juggling everything else having to play 99.99% defense 60 hours a week.

I don't care about their apathy.

I'm looking for what cases the pro 2A folks are up against in NY which are to be contended with when our side brings lawsuits against the anti gun legal-political machine. I'm fully aware that the population of NYC isn't doing us any favors and can't be expected to give us 50.1% pro gun voting enough to purge the place of its politicians. Instead we have to use the courts which don't require any of that. I'm inquiring about what mechanism we have to go about the plan that's working elsewhere. Thus far I've gotten nothing because everyone in NY I've reached thus far is either uninformed, cloistered and protecting their turf ("You don't know what you're talking about, leave this to us!"), despondant, or doesn't understand the question.
 
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Well some positive things have happened. In California (of all places) a decision handed down by the 9th U.S. Court of Appeals incorporated Washington DC v. Heller, meaning that it now applies to most of the western states except Texas.

California Attorney General "Moonbeam" is going to find all sorts of challenges being filed against that state's gun control laws. This will create case law that may prove helpful to gun owners in places like NY and NJ and cities like NYC and Chicago.


Lawsuits, we go lawsuits

Yesterday, the Second Amendment Foundation, the Calguns Foundation and four California residents filed suit that challenged a California state law that bans handguns based on a listing of "certified" handguns approved by the state.

For years, the state has maintained that sort of list, requiring the notation on many firearms ads and materials that reads "Not approved for sale in California". In the new lawsuit, the plaintiffs assert the law is unconstitutional, based on the Supreme Court's ruling that the protects handguns that ordinary people traditionally use for self-defense, and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals' decision that the Second Amendment applies to both state and local governments.

The plaintiffs in the case are represented by Alan Gura. He says California "tells Ivan Peña that his rights have an expiration date based on payment of a government fee. Americans are not limited to a government list of approved books, or approved religions," he said. "A handgun protected by the Second Amendment does not need to appear on any government-approved list and cannot be banned because a manufacturer does not pay a special annual fee."

"The Para Ordnance P-13 was once approved for sale in California," Peña noted, "but now that a manufacturer didn't pay a yearly fee, California claims the gun I want to own has somehow become 'unsafe'."

"The Glock-21 is the handgun I would choose for home defense, but California has decided the version I need is unacceptable," says plaintiff Roy Vargas, "I was born without a right arm below my elbow and therefore the new ambidextrous version of the Glock-21 is the safest one for me. The identical model designed for right hand use is available in California, but I can't use it."

The other two plaintiffs in the case have similar stories.

Doña Croston's handgun would be allowed if it were black, green, or brown, but her bi-tone version is supposedly 'unsafe' merely based on color. "I didn't realize that my constitutional rights depended on color. What is it about two colors that makes the gun I want to purchase 'unsafe'?"

Brett Thomas seeks to own the same model of handgun that the Supreme Court ordered District of Columbia officials to register for Dick Heller. However, that particular model is no longer manufactured, and its maker is no longer available to process the handgun's certification through the bureaucracy. "There is only one model of handgun that the Supreme Court has explicitly ruled is protected by the Second Amendment and yet California will not allow me to purchase that gun," said Mr. Thomas.

Attorneys representing the group say the "approved" list in California is, essentially, gun control by degrees. "Gradually," says co-counsel Donald Kilmer, the list of "so-called 'guns' will shrink to zero."

Jim Sherpard; The Shooting Wire May 1, 2009

Progress is not always fast, but it is moving forward. :evil:
 
A major part of the problem, quite frankly, is the extremely high level of corruption we have here in the State.

Governor Spitzer was spending tens of thousands of dollars on prostitutes while supposedly on official business. As Attorney General he was responsible for a number of highly questionable prosecutions against major businesses. His successor David Patterson, while a State Senator, attempted to change the law so that if a police officer shot an armed criminal and the round struck the head or chest rather than a limb the officer would be charged with manslaughter or felony assault. Patterson has since admitted that he was a heavy cocaine abuser and that he has given state jobs with $50,000+ salaries to women that he was cheating on his wife with. The man is also legally blind and is unable to focus his limited vision for more than two hours a day. He also refuses to learn how to read braile. The question then becomes, how can he read legislation put before him? The answer is that he cannot. He has to take someone else's word as to what is in the documents he signs into law. Our previous State Comptroller Alan Hevesi is a convicted felon who is forever barred from holding office in NYS after pleading guilty to stealing tens of thousands of dollars from the Treasury to benefit his wife while his job was to help safeguard the State's financial system. And the list goes on and on...

Now, how is this relevant to the discussion? Because this same corruption extends to the judiciary in New York. Here in NYS the Supreme Court is the lower level court with the Court of Appeals being our highest court. Supreme Court Justices can be either appointed or elected. You don't become a judge in NYC without paying bribe money. Years ago I read a number of interviews with NYPD Detectives and Lieutenants in the Detective Bureau who flat out stated that a Judge's robes cost fifty thousand dollars cash, period, end of sentence. In upstate NY conditions vary by county and city. It's been this way for decades, perhaps over a century. When the Knapp Commission on Police Corruption started to sniff around the corruption in the offices of the District Attornies and Judges things got wrapped up quickly.

My point is, a great many of the Judges who would be deciding 2nd Amendment cases and hearing challenges to the law are criminals themselves. They are too invested in the system to buck its dictates. They owe their careers to political bosses, State Assemblymen and Senators and, in some cases, members of organized crime. One of the Democratic party's main planks in NYS is gun control. A Judge who goes against that will see his or her career flushed down the toilet. Plus, there's always the discomforting possibility that what they did to get their seat might slip out, purely by chance of course.

NYS is the capital of cronyism. The only way that things will change, absent a groundswell of support for the Second Amendment, is for the SCOTUS to order that the Sullivan Act and its companion legislation be set aside.
 
NYS also has "home rule" which allows cities that have over a million people to come up with their own gun laws. That is why no one will tell you anything with certainty. It's because it changes every year and is different from city to city. This adds to the confusion. In my opinion what needs to be done is:
1 incorporation
2 get rid of the Sullivan law
3 get rid of "home rule"
4 lawsuits that seek to remove the "pay to exercise you 2a rights laws"

You'd probably end up with a simpler set of laws but they'll still be pretty restrictive given the make up of the state
 
We also need more organization of resources. It took me posting in no fewer than 8 places and waiting 3 days to get even this much information, and it's nowhere near actionable, whereas I can get the answer to the same question from other states in just a couple of hours posting it once. California's got it so good with Calguns you can ask this question and get the laws and cases within an hour or less, the opinions in PDF, commentary from the lawyers trying current cases on this very matter, and even talk to the guys bankrolling the cases and writing the briefs!
 
The problem again in new york is that it's such a hodge podge of laws, upstate people don't care about NYC people because in their counties they can get a CCW and license pretty easily and there just isn't enough downstaters to make a difference in the city. Because each county is dealing in their own laws there's no way someone can mobilize the entire state to do anything without removing the problems of:
home rule, may issue and the Sullivan law. It would be nice to have a central source for laws and legal challenges but there just isn't and the problem is many 2a groups won't pick a fight that they can't win
 
I'm working on building up a site to do the centralizing. It's just slow as heck getting people there and getting them to talk. The folks that have it relatively good don't see much need to fight and those who don't have it so good aren't used to entertaining any idea that they can.
 
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