The next frontier: international CCW reciprocity

[ElTacoGrande]

I've never heard anyone talking about this, so let's start talking about it here and see if we can get some workable ideas maybe.

t's not as strange as it sounds. Most of Europe has discretionary permit systems, and parts of Europe are even Vermont-style (ie, no permit is needed). Both Mexico and Canada have discretionary (but rarely-issued) permit systems. I believe many other countries in South America are effectively shall-issue. Panama, for instance, I know is shall-issue. South Africa used to be very liberal about permits, and actually issued permits to non-citizens upon arrival in Johanesberg International Airport! Also, we already have a widely-used form of international reciprocity in that on-duty law enforcement officers can often carry if their duty takes them overseas (ie, an FBI agent investigating a bombing in London would be able to pack there, I believe). Same for security for government officials, even in the most anti-gun countries: the US Secret Service certainly packs when in Tokyo. Well, what about starting international reciprocity for ordinary permit holders?

There are several barriers to this. On the US side there are federal laws prohibiting possession of firearms by non-residents, with exceptions for some "sporting" uses. I'm not sure exactly what would need to be changed to make this possible, or if it could somehow be done all at the state level, which would be easier of course. It would also help to have streamlined firearm importation rules. Currently it's possible for an ordinary foreigner (ie, not a licensed importer) to import a firearm for personal use, but it does require some paperwork and it's a bit slow.

Then we would need to find a foreign country to start with. In Europe, the most likely places would be Switzerland or the Czech Republic. The problem is that (AFAIK) both those places are Vermont-style, ie, they don't issue permits, you can just carry, so there's no way we could honor a Czech permit, because there's no such thing (AFAIK). I think that Europe is either "Vermont style" or "discretionary". We would need a place that's in between, what we would call "shall-issue". I don't know anywhere in Europe that is shall-issue. The "discretionary" places in Europe, like Germany, France, etc, are all very miserly in their issuing and are not enthusiastic about their own citizens packing, much less American tourists.

Much of Latin America is shall-issue (AFAIK), but I'm not sure how easy of a sell it would be to tell some state that it should honor Panamanian permits, for example.

Any other ideas?

 

[Oldtimer]

International CCW reciprocity? I kinda doubt it, since the United Nations won't budge, and has been anti-gun for many years. Add to that, the "Ugly American" is not well-liked in numerous countries right now.

Throw in the FACT that CCW reciprocity isn't even a NATION-wide "right" or "privelege" yet. Add to that, the "Police Officer's Bill of Rights", allowing LEO's (active-duty and retired) is still relatively new.

What MIGHT be at least a step in the right direction would be to collect all FACTUAL info regarding CCW "rights" in all other countries, make a summation of the "general rule" world-wide, then come up with some sort of "standardization" of training requirements, procedures for applying for an international permit, and the actual issuance process. I seriously doubt if the UN would want anything to do with it, so some other international "authority" would have to be approached.

 

[G36-UK]

I know for a fact the antis over here wouldn't stand for it.

Sounds too much like common sense.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Oldtimer, I'm talking about an individual state deciding to have reciprocity with one (or more) other individual countries. This is how reciprocity stated in the US: Some state (perhaps Florida) said one day, "Ok, if you have a permit from Texas, you are allowed to use that permit to cary in Florida." (I'm just making an example; I'm not sure which two states were first.) So this would be the same way: Maybe Florida would say, "Hey, if you have a permit from Costa Rica, you're allowed to use it in Florida" and Costa Rica would say the same thing: "Hey if you're from Florida, you should spend your vacation dollars in Costa Rica because we will honor your permit here." The UN would have nothing to do with this.

Obviously, any type of mandatory international reciprocity would be impossible. All countries have wide variations in their legal systems, and that's perfectly fine with me.

The more that I think about it, Florida would be the place to start because they do have a lot of visitors from Latin American countries, many of which are "shall issue", and many Florida residents have family ties to these same countries and enjoy going there, so there is a natural reason for the reciprocity.

 

[quiettype]

Latin american reciprocity?

Different rules for residents and tourists.You're admitted on a short term tourist visa, unless you've made arrangements in advance.The only documents that matter are your passport,visa status and bank account.With a tourist visa certain activities allowed and some are not.The National and Immigration police deal with that stuff.
Weapons fall under military jurisdiction.There is just no easy way around their
bureaucracy.Pretty much impossible for a gringo.Now if the US embassy helped you out that would eliminate the hassle.

 

[Manedwolf]

You do NOT want any excuse for many corrupt Latin American governments (also Mexico) to hold you for anything, and having a gun would be a major one. Especially if there was paperwork going in. Then the corrupt local officials would know you had one, and could conveniently show up or follow you.

"What's this, senor? Ah, perhaps you are the one who just robbed the store. Come with us...unless you wish to pay?"

You'd find out very quickly that the justice systems in less developed nations are NOT the US.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Manedwolf, I know, I was thinking of that too. Even if I could easily get a permit, I wouldn't want to pack in Mexico. The Federales there look for any excuse to hold a foreigner and a gun (even with the correct permit) is a big excuse for it.

But there are some LA countries that are not so corrupt and have respect for CCW. Costa Rica is an example of that. If I could get a permit in CR, I would definitely carry there. Same in Panama. The police in those two countries do NOT use CCWs as an excuse to shake-down a foreigner. In fact, many foreigners who live in Panama have CCWs there. It's one of the reasons some people go there: it does have easy and safe CCW access.

Maybe if they wanted to boost their tourism (which they do) they could start unilaterally honoring US permits and make a big deal of that in shall-issue states like FL.

I've been to many many 3rd world countries. They all have some degree of corrupt shake-down law enforcement, but they're not stupid about it. Many of these countries depend heavily on tourism for earning dollars and they are accutely aware that even a small number of well-publicized incidents can quickly send tourists elsewhere. Look at what has happened in Bali: they have imprisoned a few Australians on charges widely preceived to be bogus, and their tourism industry is sinking, something which the average Balinese can't afford. Also Mexico has a reputation for corrupt law enforcement and many people are scared to go there, scared to drive there, etc, all with good reason. Countries like Costa Rica have carefully avoided this type of reputation.

 

[Maxwell]

First off, reciprocity with who?
Its a leap of faith that any nation would let US ccw holders come in, even more that we would let their ccw folks come here in return (obviously needing protection for their right to bear while traveling through other states and nations too).

It seems to be an uphill battle just getting a state to state reckognition, let alone forigners. If this means letting all their weapons in too, the batfe would have a field day listing reasons to block it.

I see your point that smaller nations might do it for tourism and security reasons. but then...

The UN would have nothing to do with this.

Its unlikely you will get a global fopa equivilant with them, or without them.
That means direct travel at best (and God help you should your plane get diverted to a 3rd party airport for any reason).

I'll gamble that the UN has its own international permit that is easy to obtain if your the son of a wealthy diplomat, which they will claim makes a new law unessisary.

Then the fact a nation like the US can shrug off UN demands, but a small caribbean island would not have the diplomatic strength or the money for that fight. Watch the nightmare they just had in brazil, and that was a large population thats had just about all of its weapons rights nixed to begin with.
Youll be hard pressed to find a nation with the money, the guns, the location and a good enough name to win this fight.

Your right in that its probly the next step... I just think its a ways off at best.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

I'll gamble that the UN has its own international permit that is easy to obtain if your the son of a wealthy diplomat, which they will claim makes a new law unessisary.

There is indeed such a permit. It's called a diplmatic passport and it lets the holder disregard many of the host nation's laws. "Officer, you can't search me or my vehicle, I have a diplomatic passport" is pretty effective. I know I have read about incidents of diplomatic passport holders carrying guns in places in Europe where that would not normally be allowed. And you are right, diplomatic passports are given out as expensive favors for VIPs.

I guess the way to get this started would be not mutual reciprocity, but unilateral recognition. For example, many states recognize and honor California CCW permits, even though CA does not honor the permtis of any other state (except Federal-type permits and diplomatic passports of course). Maybe the thing to do would be to get Panama or Costa Rica or South Africa to start officially honoring US permits, and have them streamline their entrance requirements. Again, this is not a big leap, not at all. South Africa had such a policy until recently: show your passport at the Joburg airport and they issued a permit, right there. If some more countries would start doing that, reciprocity could eventually be started.

As for the "your flight gets diverted" problem, yes, that could be a big problem. Some countries, like Taiwan, have a mandatory death penalty for firearms "smuggling". However in a case where a plane is diverted, I assume it would be handled as the firearm never actually enters the country. It would stay in customs holding, so this might not be a problem. Dunno. It's tricky certainly.