The old 'Water in a Hollowpoint' trick.

[Panzercat]

I write fiction as a hobby and recently recieved this commentary in feedback--

You can make an exploding bullet by sealing a drop of water into the hollow of a hollow point bullet with wax. On impact, the water droplet blasts the bullet apart like a bursting charge, producing shrapnel.

Now I have heard of this before in various forms, but this is the first time I've hear of water being used as the hollow point payload. First, I've always been somewhat skeptical that the wax seal would even survive the 1200fps transit to the target. Second, water is water, and assuming you are hitting more of it (like, say, a body) it will simply aid in normal expansion, not create a mini death warhead.

Any thoughts on this one?

The other variant of this particular episode of ballistics myth busters is a mercury sealed hollow point. This one I have seen used in other fiction and strikes me as the more feasible alternative. It's denser liquid metal that will go all willy-nilly on whatever it hits... Assuming the wax seal actually holds up. Likewise, you've probably just delivered a lethal dose of mercury poisoning on target even if the mercury itself doesn't lend anything in terms of terminal ballistics.

Yes, and I'd assume you'd rack up some stiff legal penalties of various sorts as well.

On the former, however, what say you?

 

[ROAshooter]

ummm...there is a simpler way....and for some time considered illegal...some call them "dum-dums".....just taking a knife..or a small file....and notching the bullet nose with a cross...the deeper the cross..the more violent the separation of the bullet upon impact.....

 

[DrLaw]

I like to dip all my bullets in garlic in case somebody I shoot is a vampire! If they don't go down, I quickly switch to a silver bullet because they might be a werewolf.

Seriously, with all the technology and tests that have gone into hollow point bullets, is this really a question that needs asked?

The Doc is out now.

 

[Panzercat]

I like to dip all my bullets in garlic in case somebody I shoot is a vampire! If they don't go down, I quickly switch to a silver bullet because they might be a werewolf.

I'll take that as "I really don't know so I'll supply something witty in hopes to cover my ignorance."
On the topic of dum-dums, however...

 

[unspellable]

Upon striking a body a plain hollow point will fill with tissue. Since the propagation of a pressure wave in water vs flesh is very nearly identical there would be no significant difference.

Mercury would add a significant mass to the bullet and might run pressures up a bit too high. Given any time, lead or copper are soluble in mercury which would weaken the bullet. The difference in pressure wave propagation is not going to contribute much since you have such a small amount of mercury.

A lot of effort has gone into modern hollow point design. Snake oil "improvements" are not going to improve them.

As for mercury toxicity, mercury itself is not toxic, it's various compounds of mercury that are toxic. In time free mercury might form such compounds in the body, but that takes time, and the compounds themselves are slow acting poisons. The mercury might result in death by poisoning, but it's going to take weeks, not exactly a one shot stop recipe. If the wound is known to contain mercury that might allow enough time to treat the patient with chelating agents and get rid of the mercury.

 

[Shadow 7D]

NO
actually you wouldn't

there used to be some brands of exploding bullets, I believe they even made them in .22
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-250642.html
http://www.firequest.com/devistator-ammo.html

So far we have learned that you can own exploding ammo
everybody seems to think everything is illegal

Hell folks you can LEGALLY own a RPG, a GRENADE, A GRENADE LAUNCHER AND AMMO
you just pay $200 a pop for Destructive Device, so it's a bit pricey to shoot.

Poeple own CRUISE missiles, don't know the full legalities of shooting one, but the point is, you can own them as long as they aren't classified (restricted) military technology.

 

[Jim Watson]

The subject comes up every once in a while. Filling a hollowpoint with fluid does not make it explosive but it can increase the expansion.

Lyman made a mold for a hydraulic bullet during the 1960's. The bullet was a conventional hollowpoint with a rather large cavity filled with water or oil and sealed with a smaller caliber copper gas check. The bullet was reportedly a good performer, but it was strictly a handloading proposition, and a tedious one at that, so it did not sell. I don't know if they ever got beyond the gunzine writer demonstration level.

In the 1920s or 1930s there was a jacketed rifle bullet that was initially formed as a hollowpoint. The cavity was filled with grease and the opening swaged shut. I never read anything about its actual performance on game.

 

[mrvco]

My "Hollywood Education" tells me that adding a drop of mercury to the tip of a bullet increases your BA rating by a factor of at least ten

 

[Panzercat]

Mercury increasing the bullet weight and pressure is a very good point.
Still wonder if the purported wax sealing method would survive the process or if that is more urban legend as well.
Could test it out with a can of compressed air, tho I'm really thinking A hot barrel would be enough to melt it, too.

 

[Jaymo]

Dean Grennell experimented with filling the nose cavities of HP pistol bullets with cast bullet lube and had fantastic results. Wax, being a liquid, is incompressible and propegates expansion.

 

[Flfiremedic]

I've read something somewhere about mercury filled bullets, and it does make sense in a gruesome way...wish I could remember where I read it...Does anyone remember a series of books about a western PI at the turn of the century (VERY early 1900s)? Maybe thats where it was.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I suspect the centrifugal force of a mercury filled bullet would just leave you standing there inhaling a bunch of mercury vapor if you fired it. Water is lighter, so maybe it would stay in place.

Yet, I suspect bullet designers have explored all this and rejected it. Cor-Bon has the Pow 'R Ball ammo, using a plastic ball in the nose cavity to increase expansion and prevent the hollow from being plugged.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

First of all, you can try most of these ideas and see if they work.

Water in the hollowpoint is difficult to test -- most hollowpoints are too small to accept a drop of water (the size of a drop is limited by surface tension.) Cutting crosses on the noses of bullets has no effect that I can see when fired into a Fackler Box or wet newsprint.

I've never tried mercury, but sincerely doubt it would work -- especially not in a .22 bullet as described in The Day of the Jackal.

Finally, the soft-nose bullet was invented by Captain Bertie Davis in India. He was attempting to increase the stopping power of the then-new .303 Enfield round. The bullet he designed was named after the arsenal where he worked -- Dum Dum Arsenal.

 

[napjerk]

Bullets can spin 100,000 rpm or more depending on the velocity and rifling rate. I doubt a piece of wax is gonna stay in place at those velocities due to centrifugal force, etc.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I suspect that EFMJ, or a 'ballistic' tip HP, you know the ones with the soft plastic ball/tip
will DO just as well if not better than most of the ideas put forward so far, they come from the factory that way.

 

[Steve CT]

Many years ago I reloaded some .357 Mag rounds with a Hollow Base Wadcutter upside down, with that massive cavity facing out. It was spectacular on water jugs, watermelons, etc. Probably impractical in the long run, but an interesting project.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I always thought the justification for the mercury in the hollowpoint idea was that the mercury would supposedly explode under force, just like a primer. Probably based on the fact that old primers used to use a mercury compound.

Whether this is actually the case, I don't know, but I doubt it.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Mercury Fulminate is an explosive, elemental Hg. IS NOT explosive, I'm sure the guy wouldn't appreciate cleation therapy much for his GSW, but no, no 'boom'.

 

[Panzercat]

I suspect the centrifugal force of a mercury filled bullet would just leave you standing there inhaling a bunch of mercury vapor if you fired it. Water is lighter, so maybe it would stay in place.

Yet, I suspect bullet designers have explored all this and rejected it. Cor-Bon has the Pow 'R Ball ammo, using a plastic ball in the nose cavity to increase expansion and prevent the hollow from being plugged.

Another valid point concerning mercury loads. Even if the payload survived exit, I suspect it would cause long term instability in flight... Arguably that won't matter at shorter ranges, however.

Of course all of this has been explored by somebody with a larger budget than all of us combined, yet it is apparently still common ballistics folklore, since it wouldn't be the first time I've heard it mentioned in conversation. Just trying to weed out how much of it is snake oil and what might actually have a shred of truth to it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Many years ago I reloaded some .357 Mag rounds with a Hollow Base Wadcutter upside down, with that massive cavity facing out. It was spectacular on water jugs, watermelons, etc. Probably impractical in the long run, but an interesting project.

I carried similar loads in my Colt M357 my first tour in Viet Nam -- leaded pretty badly, but on two occasions it worked spectacularly.

 

[PO2Hammer]

You can make an exploding bullet by sealing a drop of water into the hollow of a hollow point bullet with wax. On impact, the water droplet blasts the bullet apart like a bursting charge, producing shrapnel.

Who ever wrote that is just guessing. (and they are wrong)

 

[DrLaw]

I'll take that as "I really don't know so I'll supply something witty in hopes to cover my ignorance."

And yet, you write fiction, eh?

I think the ignorance comes in asking the question. The reply was mean to put it in the high strata of importance that it belongs in.

The Doc is out now.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Ah, HYDRO shoks!

 

[Panzercat]

I think the ignorance comes in asking the question. The reply was mean to put it in the high strata of importance that it belongs in.

You didn't address the topic in any way, shape or form. You dropped by with a snarky comment then completely sidestepped any attempt to answer, let alone theorize or comment on the actual subject. I openly admit my ignorance. You tried and continue try to hide behind a witty facade masquerading as knowledge and still haven't contributed to the thread. Most forums call that trolling.

By all means continue to dig. I'll be listening to everybody who posted after you... You know, those people who can actually demonstrate their knowledge. Unlike yourself.

 

[06]

Have not tried this and probably will not but a bud said he put shotgun primers into the cavities of some 45s and the results were "exciting". Just a bit more adventuresome than I want to be--lol.