The Patrol Rifle Concept
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AStone
Member
AR v. pump: field stripping, cleaning & maintenance
This continues to be an interesting thread.
I've posed a question at the end of this post - which may be slightly OT in this thread, but not much due to my broad intentions for a new rifle - but first, some background.
For some months, I've been looking at rifle options for my next weapon.
(The current collection: shotgun (user name numerical digits + P); a revolver; a pistol; a .22LR bolt.
For a second rifle, I'm interested in hunting mostly deer (mulies and white tail), with defense as a second motivation. (My 870P is my main defensive weapon, hanging only a few feet from my sleeping spot.)
For meat hunting, I started looking at bolts and pumps.
For a while, I looked at Remington 7600s.
Then I found the 7615P in .223 and became momentarily excited.
I came to my senses, realizing that .223 is not a suitable rnd for deer in optimal conditions.
After that, I started considering larger calibers: .308, .30-06, .270, 7mm08.
For the past few months, I've been planning (and saving) for a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm08.
But this thread has made me again consider the AR's (damn alluring they are), including whether they (and .223) could be used for deer. (Short answer: theoretically yes, with good shot placement, but not legally in most states in pre-TEOTWAWKI conditions.)
But the most interesting result of reading this thread has been to make me reconsider a Remington 7600 in a .30-06 carbine (w/ 18.5" barrel).
It's based on my beloved (and familiar) 870P pump action (I agree with Cosmo: pumps are underrated), and about the same length and weight.
It's got an awesome array of rnds - from 125 gr to 220 gr.
It could serve as a SHTF rifle, covering both hunting needs (with attention to shot placement given that short barrel) and defense needs requiring a carbine.
_______
So, to my question, the answer to which could influence my choice:
I have no (= zero) experience with AK, AR & other autos.
The only auto rifle that I've ever owned was a Remington Nylon 66 in .22LR years ago.
So, how do you compare ease of maintenance,
including field stripping & cleaning,
for an AR v. that for a pump gun like a 7600?
Remember: I'm familiar with my pump shotgun already,
but have no experience with an auto. That's why I'm asking.
Seeking simplicity and functionality,
Nem
This continues to be an interesting thread.
I've posed a question at the end of this post - which may be slightly OT in this thread, but not much due to my broad intentions for a new rifle - but first, some background.
For some months, I've been looking at rifle options for my next weapon.
(The current collection: shotgun (user name numerical digits + P); a revolver; a pistol; a .22LR bolt.
For a second rifle, I'm interested in hunting mostly deer (mulies and white tail), with defense as a second motivation. (My 870P is my main defensive weapon, hanging only a few feet from my sleeping spot.)
For meat hunting, I started looking at bolts and pumps.
For a while, I looked at Remington 7600s.
Then I found the 7615P in .223 and became momentarily excited.
I came to my senses, realizing that .223 is not a suitable rnd for deer in optimal conditions.
After that, I started considering larger calibers: .308, .30-06, .270, 7mm08.
For the past few months, I've been planning (and saving) for a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm08.
But this thread has made me again consider the AR's (damn alluring they are), including whether they (and .223) could be used for deer. (Short answer: theoretically yes, with good shot placement, but not legally in most states in pre-TEOTWAWKI conditions.)
But the most interesting result of reading this thread has been to make me reconsider a Remington 7600 in a .30-06 carbine (w/ 18.5" barrel).
It's based on my beloved (and familiar) 870P pump action (I agree with Cosmo: pumps are underrated), and about the same length and weight.
It's got an awesome array of rnds - from 125 gr to 220 gr.
It could serve as a SHTF rifle, covering both hunting needs (with attention to shot placement given that short barrel) and defense needs requiring a carbine.
_______
So, to my question, the answer to which could influence my choice:
I have no (= zero) experience with AK, AR & other autos.
The only auto rifle that I've ever owned was a Remington Nylon 66 in .22LR years ago.
So, how do you compare ease of maintenance,
including field stripping & cleaning,
for an AR v. that for a pump gun like a 7600?
Remember: I'm familiar with my pump shotgun already,
but have no experience with an auto. That's why I'm asking.
Seeking simplicity and functionality,
Nem
The AR is a military weapon and can handle abuse and rough conditions far better than the Remington 7600 sporting rifle. You need to decide what you want a crap hits the fan combat rifle or a deer shooter. AR's are not hard to clean and maintain they were meant to be used to soldiers in field conditions.
Pat
Pat
AStone
Member
OK, fair enough.
But part of that decision involves my question about
ease of maintenance, field stripping & cleaning an AR v. a 7600.
And your answer is...?
But part of that decision involves my question about
ease of maintenance, field stripping & cleaning an AR v. a 7600.
And your answer is...?
Ivy Mike
Member
355Sigfan, I get the feeling that a manually operated action is probably going to be more reliable and rugged than a semi-auto system. The fact that its based on the 870 action leads me to believe its quite rugged, reliable and proven.
While the AR is quite accurate, the 7600 also sports a full floating barrel which rivals the accuracy of a bolt gun.
This isn't some cheap plinker we're talking here and the 7600 comes in more stout calibers. I like the 7600 as a patrol rifle.
While the AR is quite accurate, the 7600 also sports a full floating barrel which rivals the accuracy of a bolt gun.
This isn't some cheap plinker we're talking here and the 7600 comes in more stout calibers. I like the 7600 as a patrol rifle.
Chris Rhines
Member
Yes, pointing out flaws in an argument is just incurably angsty, isn't it?
Sigh.
Why don't we let reality settle this dispute? Let's have all interested parties run 355sigfans's COF against a shot timer and post the results here.
---
Nematocyst,
Never had a 7600P in my hands, but field-stripping and cleaning an AR is beyold easy. Stripping it takes about fifteen seconds - remove the magazine and check the chamber, push out two captive pins with your fingers, seperate the upper and lower, pull the bolt carrier and charging handle out the rear, done. Takes about fifteen seconds and requires no tools. Cleaning is equally fast.
- Chris
Sigh.
Why don't we let reality settle this dispute? Let's have all interested parties run 355sigfans's COF against a shot timer and post the results here.
---
Nematocyst,
Never had a 7600P in my hands, but field-stripping and cleaning an AR is beyold easy. Stripping it takes about fifteen seconds - remove the magazine and check the chamber, push out two captive pins with your fingers, seperate the upper and lower, pull the bolt carrier and charging handle out the rear, done. Takes about fifteen seconds and requires no tools. Cleaning is equally fast.
- Chris
Begging your pardon; with regard to bolt vs autoloader and cycling, I did omit the recoil recovery factor. This will be the equivalent same, or as near as makes no practical difference, with rifles in similar classes. The recoil using smallbores is almost insignificant, and I have no doubt that even among the most proficient a .223 autoloader is going to score faster repeat hits on a single target than anyone using a .223 bolt-action.
A good medium bore bolt-action can be manipulated - or cycled - within the time a sight picture can be regained using a similarly chambered autoloader. Certainly if you take "ten average shooters with an autoloader" and "ten shooters" who do not know how to properly manage a bolt-action the former will probably shoot faster repeats. But this is not an equipment issue, rather an operator issue.
Although there are always exceptions, there are not many people that will take a standard velocity and weight hunting type softpoint bullet from a .30 center mass and still be in a fight. Whether it be a 30-30 or a 30-06. The reference to hardball was merely to set a power class - eliminating "reduced recoil" loads or special cartridges with very light payloads that have significantly less recoil for their chambering.
As for the routine practice of two rifle shots per target, this is an error IMO. It has validity with pistol and smallbore rifle cartridges - but not with the mediums shooting regular hunting type softpoints. Someone ingrained with the automatic habit of shooting an extra round at a human target using a .30 class cartridge with regular softpoints is most likely going to be shooting at fresh air for the second round. Or experiencing a lag as they see the target drop like a sack of spuds - and then hesitate - when they should be getting on the second target or be ready for one.
Pumps, like levers, are very fast. There is no significant advantage using an autoloader chambered for a medium bore class cartridge over a pump or lever when engaging targets within the practical accuracy range of the cartridges used.
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A good medium bore bolt-action can be manipulated - or cycled - within the time a sight picture can be regained using a similarly chambered autoloader. Certainly if you take "ten average shooters with an autoloader" and "ten shooters" who do not know how to properly manage a bolt-action the former will probably shoot faster repeats. But this is not an equipment issue, rather an operator issue.
Although there are always exceptions, there are not many people that will take a standard velocity and weight hunting type softpoint bullet from a .30 center mass and still be in a fight. Whether it be a 30-30 or a 30-06. The reference to hardball was merely to set a power class - eliminating "reduced recoil" loads or special cartridges with very light payloads that have significantly less recoil for their chambering.
As for the routine practice of two rifle shots per target, this is an error IMO. It has validity with pistol and smallbore rifle cartridges - but not with the mediums shooting regular hunting type softpoints. Someone ingrained with the automatic habit of shooting an extra round at a human target using a .30 class cartridge with regular softpoints is most likely going to be shooting at fresh air for the second round. Or experiencing a lag as they see the target drop like a sack of spuds - and then hesitate - when they should be getting on the second target or be ready for one.
Pumps, like levers, are very fast. There is no significant advantage using an autoloader chambered for a medium bore class cartridge over a pump or lever when engaging targets within the practical accuracy range of the cartridges used.
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Terrierman
Member
This has been fairly interesting to follow if for no other reason than to assist in parsing who to listen to when it comes to opinions on the actual application of firearms in the real world. I have one question for the proponents of bolt, lever or pump guns over a semi-auto for any sort of defensive or law enforcement application other than sniper duty. What is the rate of fire from one of those types of firearms in the unhappy event that one of the shooters upper appendages becomes incapacitated? So far as I am concerned the only logical choice for patrol rifle duty (implying non-sporting use) is a magazine fed semi-automatic. After that it becomes a matter of if you like AR or some other platform. I learned on M-16 A1 in 1970 with the USMC. I also trained and qualified with m-14 in boot camp. I preferred the M-16 for several reasons that many have stated over and over again. I think it is still the superior platform for law enforcement or as a battle rifle today. I freely admit to holding a grudge against the AK and SKS types of rifles because of what they took from too many of my friends and cannot ever consider owning one. That pretty much leaves AR and Mini 14. I think the AR is superior to the Mini 14 ergonomically and is therefore the logical choice.
Chris Rhines
Member
I have not found this to be the case. But again, instead of posting anecdotes and theories, why don't we post some data?
I wonder if I have any .303 ammo....
- Chris
Terrierman
My own opinion is that "rate of fire" is an overrated issue. More rounds per minute can be fired from a side-by-side double barrel autoeject shotgun by a competent operator than from a pump or autoloader. Does it matter? Not really IMO.
Completely mastering your weapon of choice along with a fighting mindset is a sounder basis than crunching such numbers.
Chris Rhines
Certainly you could have someone time you between shots with your favorite medium bore selfloader rifle shooting your drill of choice. Whatever the average time is, that is your average recovery time between shots.
Bolt-action manipulation is instantaneous after the trigger is pulled, and the rifle does not leave the shoulder. It does not take but a fraction of a second, and is over and done with by the time the sight picture can be regained after bringing the muzzle down from recoil.
Like shooting a double-action revolver, there is some technique required, which needs to be mastered with consistancy. But it is nothing new.
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This depends on many things, and the answers taking all things into account might fill a whole chapter of a book by a single writer concerning just one of the above action types.
My own opinion is that "rate of fire" is an overrated issue. More rounds per minute can be fired from a side-by-side double barrel autoeject shotgun by a competent operator than from a pump or autoloader. Does it matter? Not really IMO.
Completely mastering your weapon of choice along with a fighting mindset is a sounder basis than crunching such numbers.
Chris Rhines
It is not a subject that anyone that I know of has even thought about "collecting data" over.
Certainly you could have someone time you between shots with your favorite medium bore selfloader rifle shooting your drill of choice. Whatever the average time is, that is your average recovery time between shots.
Bolt-action manipulation is instantaneous after the trigger is pulled, and the rifle does not leave the shoulder. It does not take but a fraction of a second, and is over and done with by the time the sight picture can be regained after bringing the muzzle down from recoil.
Like shooting a double-action revolver, there is some technique required, which needs to be mastered with consistancy. But it is nothing new.
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Terrierman
Member
I think you missed my point. A shooter that becomes effectively a one armed shooter is still in the fight with a self loader. I just don't see how a bolt, lever, pump or break action double barrel is the functional equivalent if that possibility is considered.
ChristopherG
Member
True. I've done a 3-gun stage working a levergun with only my weak hand. Not that it wasn't fun, but it did point out to me one potential weakness of the platform. I think my time on that stage (which I DID complete, by gum) was about equal to my total for the other 5 stages that day.
seeker_two
Member
Terrierman said:
...and clearing a jam in a self-loader one-handed is easier, too?
I think, of the choices, the pump might come in at a close second for one-handed use. Remember the "Sarah Connor" reload in Terminator 2? But then, the "John Wayne" lever-action reloads are pretty quick, too.
If you practice your platform enough, speed and dexterity will come naturally...
Terrierman
Member
Not necessarily easier but not harder either. Jams of course happen, but with a good rifle with good ammunition, they are rare. Self loader is still the way to go. You have to be joking about Sarah Connor and John Wayne reloads right?
LAK, you can keep up a higher rate of fire with a double barrel break open shotgun, than you can with a pump or auto, over an extended period. Hookay then. I would pay to see that on video.
Cosmo, we keep going back to comp stuff for a couple of reasons. The original thread was about "patrol" stuff, and 3gun is about as close as you will come to that for possible uses. And then I started to harp on it because some people seem to think that there is no significant speed difference between manual repeaters and semis, when there are those of us out there that live this stuff who know that that ain't the case.
John Wayne reloads work, kinda, but will quickly break your lever hinge. The gun isn't made to take that kind of weight coming down on the hinge. The Rifleman or Terminator spin the lever reloads just plain don't work, and the cartridge will usually fall out of the action.
Hookay then. I would pay to see that on video. Cosmo, we keep going back to comp stuff for a couple of reasons. The original thread was about "patrol" stuff, and 3gun is about as close as you will come to that for possible uses. And then I started to harp on it because some people seem to think that there is no significant speed difference between manual repeaters and semis, when there are those of us out there that live this stuff who know that that ain't the case.
John Wayne reloads work, kinda, but will quickly break your lever hinge. The gun isn't made to take that kind of weight coming down on the hinge. The Rifleman or Terminator spin the lever reloads just plain don't work, and the cartridge will usually fall out of the action.
IF you have a fail to fire one handed thats not so hard to clear. IF oyu get a double feed then its difficult. I was taught and do currenty teach my guys and gals to transition to their sidearm if their long gun (shotgun or rifle) goes down. Thats if it runs out of ammo or malfs. Once its safe then work on clearing the rifle. This of course does not apply if the threat is so far that trying to use a handgun would be futile. But I feel comfortable with using a handgun at 50 yards or more.
Pat
Pat
Terrierman
Correia,
It is quite simple. Rattling off five (or eight rounds) from a pump or autoloading shotgun can be impressively fast. But time someone loading a pump or autoloader magazine tube. In the time one takes to load one shell at a time into the tube of an autoloader or pump; one can fire, eject, load, fire, eject, load (etc) a good number from a double trigger, side by side autoejector.
I don't have it on video for you. But find some competent double ejector shooters and I am sure they'll show you how it's done.
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If the shooter loses total use of one arm, he or she is not going to be particularly effective with any rifle. If he or she has some limited use of one arm, hand or both he or she can operate a bolt, lever or pump. It may be awkward and slower, but not impossible. Similar questions are often brought up in the "how to" catagory concerning other small arms - including selfloaders. One common one being for example, "how do you reload and cycle the slide of a 1911 pistol with one hand".
Correia,
It is quite simple. Rattling off five (or eight rounds) from a pump or autoloading shotgun can be impressively fast. But time someone loading a pump or autoloader magazine tube. In the time one takes to load one shell at a time into the tube of an autoloader or pump; one can fire, eject, load, fire, eject, load (etc) a good number from a double trigger, side by side autoejector.
I don't have it on video for you. But find some competent double ejector shooters and I am sure they'll show you how it's done.
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beerslurpy
member
Yeah, stay away from the Remington auto-rifles. Every guy I have ever seen with one had reliability problems.
To those of you saying the rate of aimed rifle fire is just as accurate with a bolt/pump/lever vs. an semi auto if the user is up to snuff and all, I submit this video:
http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/rifles/fal_enfield.avi
Posted here on this forum some time ago. In it they have two British Tommies go at it with aimed rifle fire. One using an Enfield, the other the newly adopted Fal. The Fal gets its shots down range faster, and the Tommie working the bolt on that Enfield is no slouch either.
My 2 cents for what its worth.
(Edited for grammar and spelling)
http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/rifles/fal_enfield.avi
Posted here on this forum some time ago. In it they have two British Tommies go at it with aimed rifle fire. One using an Enfield, the other the newly adopted Fal. The Fal gets its shots down range faster, and the Tommie working the bolt on that Enfield is no slouch either.
My 2 cents for what its worth.
(Edited for grammar and spelling)
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LAK, sorry dude. You really need to get out to a match. Most of us load multiple shotgun shells at a time into an autoloader or pump. I can do four in under 3 seconds, and I'm not that good. I keep telling you, there is a group of shooters out there who've made going super fast a science. That is what we do. So we tend to know a little bit about it.
ghost squire
member
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eab, thanks for posting that video! Very cool.
LOL no. Most semi autoloaders cycle at around 700-900 RPM. As to aimed fire, unless you can acquire targets from 5-200 yards and track them while cycling the bolt, without having to adjust aim after finishing cycling the bolt, then no to that as well. If you can track a running man at 100 yards while cycling the bolt then I apologize.
LOL no. Most semi autoloaders cycle at around 700-900 RPM. As to aimed fire, unless you can acquire targets from 5-200 yards and track them while cycling the bolt, without having to adjust aim after finishing cycling the bolt, then no to that as well. If you can track a running man at 100 yards while cycling the bolt then I apologize.
seeker_two
Member
Correia
I see it as an art as opposed to science. Certainly things that can be described, such as economy of motion and smoothness are what contribute to fast. These being two of the reasons a double trigger autoejector side-by-side is capable of being fast. I do not know whether autoejectors are permitted in SASS or other cowboy type events, but it would be interesting to mix them up.
Many folk do not know what is the correct way to use a bolt-action or shoot fast with a double - hence it has been a much neglected art. It is just not practiced by many people. The same could be said of revolvers, except it has been more fully written about, and there are some outstanding examples that get paid to do it.
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And when you say "I can [load] four in under 3 three seconds" does that mean; "... timed from the moment of last round fired, including retrieving the shells from a belt, pouch or other carrier, to ready to fire" or "next round fired"? Please clarify.
I see it as an art as opposed to science. Certainly things that can be described, such as economy of motion and smoothness are what contribute to fast. These being two of the reasons a double trigger autoejector side-by-side is capable of being fast. I do not know whether autoejectors are permitted in SASS or other cowboy type events, but it would be interesting to mix them up.
Many folk do not know what is the correct way to use a bolt-action or shoot fast with a double - hence it has been a much neglected art. It is just not practiced by many people. The same could be said of revolvers, except it has been more fully written about, and there are some outstanding examples that get paid to do it.
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AStone
Member
<Eyes and ears perk up>
4 in under 3?
<does quick calculation & visualization>
Yeah, I can see that.
A science of super fast? I like it.
I'm betting $5 that there's some art there, too.
This continues to be an interesting thread,
even in one of my busiest months in years.
Bump.
_________
Chris, thanks for the info re AR field stripping.
_________
Reading with interest,
even if slowly.
Nem
ghost squire
I can not speak for anyone else, but I can not "aquire" and "track" targets any better with an autoloader than a good bolt-action. Shooting it is much easier with an autoloading smallbore. Me, personally, I have more confidence in bigger bullets, and prefer the bolt-action.
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I thought I cleared that point up earlier.
All medium bore rifles involve some recovery of sight picture at each shot. Certainly there are some people who can minimize this somewhat, however if the recoil of medium bore selfloaders was not an issue in this regard, controlling them when in automatic fire would not be impractical.
I can not speak for anyone else, but I can not "aquire" and "track" targets any better with an autoloader than a good bolt-action. Shooting it is much easier with an autoloading smallbore. Me, personally, I have more confidence in bigger bullets, and prefer the bolt-action.
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