The Patrol Rifle Concept

[Cosmoline]

But the AR has a near-monopoly on the class right now, at least in the US. I've heard this is in part because of federal purchasing assistance, though I cannot confirm it. Certainly, it's questionable whether the officers have had any experience with alternatives. You even see patrolmen and LEO's in rural Alaska toting AR-15's, which is downright absurd.

But all of this debate is really beside the point. I'm not trying to decide which carbine in the class is *best.* We could be at that all year and never come to an agreement. I'm just trying to identify the class as a matter of taxonomy and history. As I indicated in the first post, these seem to be a type of rifle/carbine that's been around since at least the 1890's yet they literally fall through the cracks between existing definitions of "rifles" "short rifles" and "carbines."

 

[mustanger98]

Correia:

Mustanger, yeah, what do those professional army snipers who want a semi-auto know about sniping.

That, yet again, is not what I said. I said based on the sniper's deal about "one shot, one kill", it seems like regression to say a sniper needs what amounts to "rapid fire" capability. More than one shot- two, three, four rounds fired close together- gives the enemy a better chance to locate the sniper. Notice that I recall the USMC issuing the scoped version of the M-14 which was used by Gunny Hathcock after the Winchester M70. Lest anyone should think I'm down on the Army, I'm not. I have grandparents, cousins, and friends who have served in one branch or the other at different times from WW2 on up.

But all of this debate is really beside the point. I'm not trying to decide which carbine in the class is *best.* We could be at that all year and never come to an agreement. I'm just trying to identify the class as a matter of taxonomy and history. As I indicated in the first post, these seem to be a type of rifle/carbine that's been around since at least the 1890's yet they literally fall through the cracks between existing definitions of "rifles" "short rifles" and "carbines."

Yeah. That about says it. Now why did the AR snobs have to jump all over it and try to tell us we're wrong? Sounds like a bunch of mall ninjas trying to say "if you have anything but a AR you're stupid". It gets old fast.

 

[ghost squire]

But the AR has a near-monopoly on the class right now

Could there be a more reasonable explanation for that, for example, its a good gun.

That, yet again, is not what I said. I said based on the sniper's deal about "one shot, one kill", it seems like regression to say a sniper needs what amounts to "rapid fire" capability. More than one shot- two, three, four rounds fired close together- gives the enemy a better chance to locate the sniper. Notice that I recall the USMC issuing the scoped version of the M-14 which was used by Gunny Hathcock after the Winchester M70.

You have a dreamland version of what combat in Iraq is like. It's more like, you see a ragtag band of 50 hostile Iraqis with AK's headed towards a rifle squad of friendlies. You proceed to shoot fish in a barrel. Veteran's correct me if I'm wrong. There are no officers, there are no machine gunners, just a bunch of dusty guys with AK's that you have to kill as quickly as possible.

There is no "detecting". They are 2 or 3 hundred yards away and you are up on a roof behind cover, giving them a snowball's chance in hell of hitting you...

Calmly but as quickly as possible you have to work to get as many of them as possible before they disperse and dissapear into the civilian population, causing untold problems.

Since they don't have any real kind of firepower to get rid of snipers, its not like the Soviets in WW2, where they had to shoot once then move because the Germans would bring a tank shell down on them.

Also, suicide bombers. You want as fast a follow up shot as possible, in case you miss but more because they sometimes like to work in pairs or larger groups.

 

[akodo]

yes, during the assault weapon ban, you could still get preban mags pretty easily. That is irrelevant, because some places even the neutered clones were illegal. In some countries, autoloaders are flat out not permitted, but this concept of a handy, fast, low recoil, easy to carry rifle still applies even there.

also, as mentioned, there can be political and perception factors. Face it, if you do use an AR-15 type weapon, firing a single shot for self defence, the media is going to write it up as 'machinegun' etc etc. Now, you use a cz 527 in .223 or a winchester 30-30, that is going to be much lessened. Same for which you want the prosecutor to hold up in court, an AR-15 clone, that he conveniently places a drum magazine on, or a more conventional arm.

You guys are right that the AR-15, AK, G33, FN-CAL, etc etc are all good at this same task. However, it can be useful to say "if you don't want X, what else can fill the same roll". In some ways it is like a vegetarian talking about protien sources. Doesn't matter how much you scream 'JUST EAT MEAT' it is out for them, hence their listing of chickpeas, kidney beans, peanuts, tofu and the like are still releveant, even in the face of meat

 

[Correia]

Not snobbery at all. I don't even currently own a personal AR15. (and I own a gunstore). Just that Cosmo picked a term that is already in use, and 95% of the people who were already using that term were already using an AR15.

My snobbery was more against bolt actions vs. semis than an AR vs. anything.

I work with US army snipers. The guy that teaches our precision marksmanship class has been in Army SF from Vietnam until Afghanistan. He has nothing against the SR-25 type rifles, and I'm pretty sure, and all of the sniper match trophys on the wall seem to suggest that he might know what he is talking about.

In a situation with multiple targets, multiple shots might be needed quickly. That's it. And the guys that are out there doing this stuff want a semi auto. I don't know if Knights is going to get the contract because there has been some serious allegations about the procurement contract. DPMS, Armalite, and even Remington all had semi-auto .308 guns in the competition.

Why the SR-25/AR10 instead of the M14? Ease of maintenance for an accurate gun. There are no bedding issues, and that is really the primary concern. The SR-25 is a 1/2 MOA gun and maintains like the standard infantry gun.

Snipers are trained and smart. They can fire single shots to stay undetected, (all of the competitors for the new sniper rifle took sound suppresors also, most of them using OpsInc) but when given a target rich environment, they are going to take advantage of it.

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't think the patrol format AR-15 is a "bad gun," but I don't think it's the final word in the class. For one thing, it's really nothing more than the latest in a long line of military rifles being modified for use by police and civilians by making it shorter. But I don't think it's a perfect fit. The .223, when loaded with expanding rounds, is acceptable for firearms in this class. But it's also effective over a fairly narrow window. A Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum would be a far better choice as a patrol rifle for LEO's in this state, for example. As it is they have to scrounge around for a slug gun or a private hunting rifle when there's a problem bear. The complete and total inadequacy of the .223 against large game was demonstrated recently when the LEO's (in suburban Colordao IIRC) tried to bring down several bison with AR's. The results were sickening, as the officers sprayed rounds wildly at the poor beasts in a vain effort to kill them quickly.

I would not exclude the AR from the class. But I'd say it's just one of many tools within this group that can be selected. Why not expand the options a little bit?

 

[ghost squire]

Why the SR-25/AR10 instead of the M14? Ease of maintenance for an accurate gun. There are no bedding issues, and that is really the primary concern. The SR-25 is a 1/2 MOA gun and maintains like the standard infantry gun.

Makes sense.

 

[mustanger98]

ghost squire, I am offended by your assumption that I have a dreamland version of Iraq in mind. I did not specifically mention Iraq; you did. And it is a historical fact that snipers have mostly operated under the theory that you remain undetected and make one-shot kills. That said, I can see taking on 40 or 50 insurgents as fast as possible from an elevated position. But I hadn't previously thought of that as "sniping", which it certainly falls under, so much as smart tactics. We were simply thinking of different situations and I'm willing to consider this one a misunderstanding if you are. The deal you're talking about looks to me like a real good time and place to have an M-14, but if the higher-ups want a different platform, whatever. I hope it works very well for the guys using them.

Also, suicide bombers. You want as fast a follow up shot as possible, in case you miss but more because they sometimes like to work in pairs or larger groups.

This one presents another set of problems. The biggest problem I see is seeing which one(s) the suicide bombers are to be able to take them out in time. As far as shoot/no-shoot goes, considering that a suicide bombing requires a crowd, that's probably non-existant luxury regardless of who or what's behind them because they're fixing to tear up a whole lot more than the sniper will with a one-shot kill in front of an uncertain background. Not that taking out a terrorist will make shooting a bystander in the process feel any better, but the main point being that more bystanders weren't victims.

 

[Eleven Mike]

There is only one way to settle this, and you are all avoiding it. Cowards.

Bolt-Nuts face off against Mattel Toy fans. Live ammo, and any gear the player can carry. A body of judges will be selected to determine a tract of wilderness suitable for the contest and to interpret the results. The exercise will terminate at the whim of the judges, or when all players have been eliminated by death or incapacitation.

Threatening or harming judges will be punished by slow and agonizing torture, including the amputation of both trigger fingers. Calling in airstrikes or other outside help will be similarly discouraged.

Post your judicial nominations now. Judges will approve all team members.

 

[ghost squire]

I'm willing to consider this one a misunderstanding if you are.

Fair enough.

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE
A Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum would be a far better choice as a patrol rifle for LEO's in this state, for example. As it is they have to scrounge around for a slug gun or a private hunting rifle when there's a problem bear.
END QUOTE

Sorry thats laughable and I am glad I make the decisons about what our guys carry and not you. The 44 mag lever gun is underpowered for big bears and over peneatrative in homes and in people. In others words it sucks at everything. The 223 is the best combat gun we have it works for active shooters to barricaded gun men. The 870 loaded with slugs in the bear medicine.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

Also forgot to add a 223 can bring down large animals in a pinch. I know of one Trooper who killed a chargeing black bear with his AR. As for other rifles in the class if their not semi auto their obsolete for the patrol rifle role. Pure and simple. There is a reason that soldiers and cops generally don't carry bolts and levers anymore. Heck with your logic we could still carry muzzle loaders.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE
But the AR has a near-monopoly on the class right now, at least in the US. I've heard this is in part because of federal purchasing assistance, though I cannot confirm it. Certainly, it's questionable whether the officers have had any experience with alternatives. You even see patrolmen and LEO's in rural Alaska toting AR-15's, which is downright absurd.
END QUOTE

I have worked in rural alaska as a cop for the last 7 years now. I can tell you from experience that the AR15 and simular weapons are great tools for rural cops and all cops for that matter. And no federal assistance is not getting us AR's with the exception of about 100 M16 A1's the Troopers got about 8 years ago. All the rest are newly purchased guns at the departments or officers expense. Nearly all cops in rural areas have experience with bolt guns and lever guns for hunting. But we also know such weapons are woefully obsolete and outclassed by semi autos in gun fights.

You seem to think animals are are biggest threat. Thats not the case criminals are. The Ar and its class of weapons is the best at taking out criminals from 0 to 300 yards with minimal colateral damage and liability concerns. For the rare time a bear or a moose is a problem a 12 gauge loaded with slugs will do nicely and far better than a lever action pistol caliber carbine.

I have been in some tight spots and I am very glad that I have had an AR15 with me. So please do yourself a favor don't talk about subjects (rural Alaskan law enforcement or law enforcement in general) until your educate yourself.
Pat

 

[Cosmoline]

How many gunfights are there around here, honestly? I've never seen or read of an encounter where rural LEO's in this state have had to lay down hundreds of rounds. Indeed 99.9999999% of the time no shots are fired. On the other hand, I have seen local APD and troopers totally unable to deal with problem animals. One angry bull moose was in the parking lot of the midtown McDonalds a few years back, and all the APD could do was sit in their car a ways back and hope it didn't stomp anyone. Every damn village I"ve been to in the YK delta has had problem griz roaming around, and it's the locals who have to deal with the problem. State troopers are pretty much useless. It's just as well the citizens here are better armed than the cops and can deal with these problems themselves. Our cops increasingly appear to think they're working in southern California, or at least they want to look as cool and tactical as the SWAT boys down there.

You obviously have a lot of time and status invested in the AR platform. You helped set up the training program utilizing them. But you cannot honestly tell me that no Alaskan LEO's ever have to deal with out of control or wounded animals. Large, furry animals who need more than a .223 or .40. I've seen far more of those than I have of these armed gangs you seem to think are roaming the state. Yes, some units still keep a slug gun handy. Bless them. But I've seen more and more LEO's around here packing the tacti-cool AR's.

Your position is a perfect example of AR-itis. You've convinced yourselves that the AR is the ONLY rifle a patrolman can have. Any other is totally inadequate. When was the last time one was even used to kill a suspect in a shootout? Indeed, when was the last major shootout here? You cited the Bethel slayings as one reason the Bethel PD got tactical. The cops could not have done squat about ANY of it no matter how many AR's and black vests you issued them. A simple levergun in the administration office, OTOH, would have resolved the situation without a question. As it was Edwards only had what witnesses described as a plastic baseball bat. Against Ramsey's shotgun it was a short and one-sided confrontation. Had Edwards had a firearm of his own in the office, chances are he could have gotten a clean shot. Ramsey was suicidal and wandering the halls shooting randomly, paying little attention to staying concealed. Indeed he was hoping someone would kill him. He planned on killing himself but didn't have the guts to go through with it. But all of this took place before the cops--tacticool or not--could have done squat about it.

 

[355sigfan]

Cosmo don't know if your ignoring the fact I said we use 870 with slugs for animals. APD issues 870's and they have not had problems dealing with moose I know several APD officers. My personal Vang Comped 870 rides in my patrol car loaded with breneke slugs for such animal calls which are few and far between. I have delt with far more man with a gun calls than I have animal calls. Thats where the AR15 shines. Use the right tool for the job. Ar15's for human threats and Shotguns loaded with slugs for animal calls.

And there are more and more gunfights erupting all over Alaska. Its not the quite state it used to be. Like I said Bethel had the first school shooting. I have lost one friend at another department to gunfire. So again I say your totally ignorant when it comes to the needs of law enforcement and it shows in your comments. Thats not an insult but rather a statement of fact. You may know about hunting and other firearms issues but when it comes to LEO firearm needs your knowledge is totally lacking.
Pat

 

[Cosmoline]

Specific examples where only an AR would have been a sufficient patrol rifle, please. Otherwise you're just tossing the blue line at me. Which is actually increasingly typical of the attitude in these parts. It's the same "we're at war and you're just a civilian" mentality that's been spreading like a virus in the lower 48. That attititude will lead to far more tragedies than any number of AR's could prevent. Indeed the pattern I'm seeing is a law enforcment establishment increasingly alien to this state, with less and less trust between "us" and "them." Not good. Not good at all. The agencies would be well advised to spend less time and money worrying about qualifying with AR's and more effort hiring locals instead of having to import LEO's from outside. Like the idiot kid in the trooper uniform who pulled me over on a run out to Willow. I was only going 45, which he figured must mean I was on drugs or a terrorist of some kind. I had to explain to him that I was hauling 150 gallons of water in the back, a concept HE HAD NEVER HEARD OF! Imagine that. A trooper doing patrols north of Wasilla who'd never heard of hauling water.

Or the time I skidded off into the ditch on some ice. Some locals came by immediately to help me out of the ditch, but it was sad to hear them say they had to run off before any troopers drove by.

 

[355sigfan]

Cosmo every possible gun fight situation would give the edge to the AR over the guns you mention. Agian your not armed for this mental debate. Get some knowledge and come back to the table.
Pat

 

[Cosmoline]

You're still not willing or able to give me specifics. What gun fights? Where? When? Why specifically did the AR give the officer a critical advantage over other options? What specifically did it allow the officers to do that they could not have done with another rifle in the class or a shotgun?

From what I understand about your position, part of your job involves boosting and supporting the AR's you've built at least part of your career around. You're an AR Armorer! So surely you must be able to give me more details.

 

[GTSteve03]

Don't bother, Cosmo. 355sigfan is the only one in this room professional enough to use an AR15.

 

[ghost squire]

Cosmo every possible gun fight situation would give the edge to the AR over the guns you mention.

Thats a tad sweeping... I would much prefer a .30 caliber bolt gun if the person was inside a car or behind cover, or at 200+ yards. I don't know if I would give up the versatility of the AR vs the bolt gun for that if I were a police officer, but if I knew thats what was going to happen and I had the choice between the two I'm picking bolt gun.

 

[Cosmoline]

And mind, I'm not trying to pick on the AR-15 in this thread. It's fine for what it is. And I suspect the AR-15 is going to be the best choice for getting high scores on drills designed for the AR-15. But what does that tell us? You could just as easily create a course requiring such things as topping off the magazine that would put a levergun ahead.

So I do take issue with the notion that the AR is the end-all and be-all of the patrol rifle concept. I'm just hoping to open some minds about the class of rifles and get some thought into what can be done to make it better. It's high time IMHO, since for the most part people haven't even been thinking about these rifles as part of the same general type before.

 

[shootinstudent]

So I do take issue with the notion that the AR is the end-all and be-all of the patrol rifle concept. I'm just hoping to open some minds about the class of rifles and get some thought into what can be done to make it better. It's high time IMHO, since for the most part people haven't even been thinking about these rifles as part of the same general type before.

I'm curious: if you could custom design a rifle from the ground up to be the typical Patrol Rifle, what would it be like?

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't know at this point, but it's something to start thinking about. The first step is to recognize that the class exists "in the wild" so to speak. And to note the general parameters of the class as far as length, weight, and cartridge class. It may be that there is no one ultimate patrol rifle. Indeed having an array of potential choices allows the class to fit a wide range of scenarios.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It's fine for what it is. And I suspect the AR-15 is going to be the best choice for getting high scores on drills designed for the AR-15. But what does that tell us? You could just as easily create a course requiring such things as topping off the magazine that would put a levergun ahead.

Do you think that is a fair characterization? As far as I can tell, neither high power,Rifle IPSC nor 3-gun was created with the AR15 in mind; but the AR15 dominates all three sports. You say you hope to open some minds; but you don't appear to be very open minded about accepting that the AR does appear to be the best weapon for many of these tasks.

So I do take issue with the notion that the AR is the end-all and be-all of the patrol rifle concept. I'm just hoping to open some minds about the class of rifles and get some thought into what can be done to make it better. It's high time IMHO, since for the most part people haven't even been thinking about these rifles as part of the same general type before.

I'd agree that there is kind of an evolutionary chain in the rifles you discussed that is missed by many; but I think that one point there is that the link IS an evolutionary one. That doesn't mean that the older rifles would be bad or unsuitable for the job, simply that they no longer represent the top of chain. Another thing to keep in mind about evolution is that many people wrongly interpret it as "survival of the fittest" when what Darwin said was that it was "survival of those best adapted to their environment". The environment for patrol rifles has changed over the years and rifles have changed with them; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the AR is the end-all, be-all - just that it is best adapted to the current environment.
__________________
"Do the interns get Glocks?"

 

[CarbineKid]

I'm curious: if you could custom design a rifle from the ground up to be the typical Patrol Rifle, what would it be like?
How about a M-1 carbine chambered for the 5.56 round?