The wimpiness of the .357 magnum

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Barry the Bear

Barry the Bear

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In 1934 when the cartridge was introduced, it was at the time, the most powerful pistol cartridge in production.Now that spot has been taken over multiple times,yet most people denounce what the .357 can do regarding "big game" hunting and has been resigned to "only marginal" for deer. Yet when it came out it was tested against the elements by several well noted people. What follows are some of those examples.
Major Douglas Wesson

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "..had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.

Walter Sykes

Wildebeest - 100 yards - complete penetration, knockdown on the first shot.

His Guide, John Hunter (of "HUNTER" and "AFRICA AS I HAVE FOUND IT") wrote that the .357 was "the one and only hand-arm for African hunting"...



Sasha Siemel - Professional Hunter in South America

6 Tigres - Amazon Jaguar's - using the S&W .357 Magnum

He wrote, "...It does all the work of a rifle and is light and easy to carry.."




Most of my source material is from an article by Jim Taylor http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/357magnum.htm


Im not advocating the use of the .357 magnum as the "end all be all" round,but I would like to know why alot of people say it simply"doesnt have the power" when history proves otherwise. I hope this breeds some great discussion.
 
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I am in your camp. Not only is the .357 a proven man stopper, but doesn't share near the recoil and DBs of a .44 or 500.

It has been my favorite caliber for a long time. I love it because it is cheap and relatively easy to reload and still has plenty of head turning boom if you want it to.
 
.357

Today's .357 Magnum ammunition isn't in the same league as the original loading.

Recent .357/158 advertised velocities are 1235 fps from a 4-inch barrel, but you'll be lucky to see any of it break 1200. I couldn't get very far past 1150 from three different Smith & Wessons, only getting close with a 4.625-inch Blackhawk that averaged 1195 for 5 rounds.

At the time, I had a few boxes of the old load and it almost made it to 1400 in the Smiths...and around 1430 in the Ruger...with a 158-grain lead SWC bullet. That's today's 125-grain figures.
 
This is (was?) a normal occurrence following the introduction of new, hot-shot cartridges.

After the introduction of the .22 Hi Power (roughly the equivalent of today's .223 Rem) a gentlemen whose name escapes meant went to India in the '20's and set about merrily bowling over tigers with it.

After the introduction of the 220 Swift (of which I am a huge fan) folks likewise began hunting all manner of large game with the little 48 gr. bullets running 4100 fps MV.

This nevertheless didn't make the above cartridges big game cartridges.

I don't doubt the validity of the examples you mention above, but think about it; all one really has to do to kill a grizzly, elk, moose, or most any breathing mammal is poke a hole in their lungs with something and they'll die eventually.

Native Americans proved this for thousands of years with flint-tipped sticks.

35W
 
Factory ammo isn't going to get you the power loads of late. And at $25+ for a box of 50, who would want to? Reloading is about the only way to achieve the potential of the 357.
 
Today's .357 Magnum ammunition isn't in the same league as the original loading.

Recent .357/158 advertised velocities are 1235 fps from a 4-inch barrel, but you'll be lucky to see any of it break 1200. I couldn't get very far past 1150 from three different Smith & Wessons, only getting close with a 4.625-inch Blackhawk that averaged 1195 for 5 rounds.

At the time, I had a few boxes of the old load and it almost made it to 1400 in the Smiths...and around 1430 in the Ruger...with a 158-grain lead SWC bullet. That's today's 125-grain figures.
Click to expand...

This is what made me lose some enthusiasm for the cartridge. Most current loads don't seem much more powerful than the .40 S&W. Weren't the old loads rated for 1435 fps or so?

Can recent S&W L and N frames handle a diet of 158 grainers moving at 1435 fps or so?
 
blue32 said:
Factory ammo isn't going to get you the power loads of late. And at $25+ for a box of 50, who would want to? Reloading is about the only way to achieve the potential of the 357.
Click to expand...


Buffalo Bore and Double Tap ammo can get near the potential. I can't afford a buck per round to practice though.
 
1911Tuner said:
Today's .357 Magnum ammunition isn't in the same league as the original loading.

Recent .357/158 advertised velocities are 1235 fps from a 4-inch barrel, but you'll be lucky to see any of it break 1200. I couldn't get very far past 1150 from three different Smith & Wessons, only getting close with a 4.625-inch Blackhawk that averaged 1195 for 5 rounds.

At the time, I had a few boxes of the old load and it almost made it to 1400 in the Smiths...and around 1430 in the Ruger...with a 158-grain lead SWC bullet. That's today's 125-grain figures.
Click to expand...
True for most makes of ammo.

But Buffalo Bore does make TRUE .357 magnums!

158gr JHPs at 1400 fps from 4 inch barrel revolvers!

Deaf
 
Smith...Good to know.

The original loading can be pretty well duplicated with a cast bullet and 15.3 grains of 2400...but I strongly advise one and all who wish to venture into that neighborhood to exercise extreme caution and approach it slowly.

I also advise against using it in a K-Frame sized revolver...and even to use it sparingly in an L-Frame. N-Frame class and New Model Blackhawks are good to go as long as the pressure signs look good. At the first sign of a sticky case...back off. You're already into dangerous territory.

Incidentally, the original ammunition used small rifle primers. Whenever I venture above 14.5 grains...which is seldom...I do the same.

Also incidentally...14.5 grains with a 155-160 grain cast bullet is about as good as it gets accuracy-wise, gives up little in velocity, and it doesn't beat up the gun so badly...but even that one comes with a caveat in K-Frames.

To wit: For need-based use only.

Disclaimer:

Use the above data at your own risk. I've never unwrapped a revolver with it, but that doesn't mean that you won't.
 
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Handloading is the way to go to get "true" 357 ballistics, that, or spend $2 a round (or more!) from Buffalo Bore or Double tap.

I can easily achieve 1400fps from my 6.5in Blackhawk with a 180grn XTP. I wouldn't go to Africa with it, but it will do the job on most critters in North America.
 
It's a shame the .357 magnum was meant to achieve 1400 fps with a 158 SWC from a Model 27 with a six inch barrel and now you barely get 1300 fps if you are lucky with a factory load. At the same time though the .357 magnum was capable of penetrating a bullet proof vest of that day. Today though most Kevlar vests will resist up to a .44 magnum so having a .357 magnum for that purpose is good and gone.

Most anything on two legs will be stopped by a 158 grn JHP traveling at an excess of 1200 fps but less than 1200 fps so long as they don't have body armor. Granted I'm a magnum dweeb so I'm all about the .454 Casull and it's wrist destroying power. The .357 magnum is just a soft shooting target round if it isn't loaded in my SP101 or Rossi 462 and then I only really need a 158 grn JHP traveling at 900+ fps to solve most social conflicts. But that's me.

For bear defense anything beyond 300 grains at 1100 fps will just be excessive unless you've got polar bears on you.
 
Im not advocating the use of the .357 magnum as the "end all be all" round,but I would like to know why alot of people say it simply"doesnt have the power" when history proves otherwise.
Click to expand...

Come back after you have put the books down and actually shot deer-size game with it. Sure, it will work (I have killed several deer with it), but to say the .357 Magnum is "the one and only hand-arm for African hunting" or any big game hunting for that matter is ludicrous. I have since put down my .357 Magnum and started using the .45 Colt for deer, which puts them down with authority. I have seen the .22 rimfire kill deer, but that doesn't make it a deer round. Just MHO based on hands-on experience.

Don
 
Given the right ammo, an appropriate barrel length, and a responsible shooting distance, I believe a good .357 is plenty of gun for anything up to a black bear in size, but perhaps a bit larger at close range. I carry one, I keep another one on my home for defense, and I shoot a third for fun as it is mostly a range gun, but it would be a hell of a hunting revolver.

That being said, modern .357 ammo isn't loaded as it once was, and I think there are better options available that make sense for bigger game. I love the cartridge and by no means think it is anything to turn your nose up at.
 
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I truly believe a full power .357 will do the same thing as a standard 44 mag. The 44 will just do it better. I love the 357 but for hunting I have had to track several deer from the wheel gun. Moving up to 44 I have had 3 bang-flop. Both guns produce full penetration with exits much larger than entrances. Similar bullet design at similar speeds do similar things.

Jumping back in time, I guarantee that those old "prove the cartridge" kills were from expert marksmen and they were equipped with expert trackers...with that said you can move a rick of firewood in the trunk of your yugo...or you can move a bunch of ricks all at once in a pickup. If they had the stouter round available they would have used it.

This kind of thing makes me wonder how a 30-06 hasn't been downgraded to a squirrel getter considering all of the magnum rounds available now. The need for more power is more perceived than actual.
 
It IS a bit hard to find modern commercially loaded ammunition in .357 that truly finds the cartridge's potential. It will cost you when you do. Buffalo Bore is good, as is Cor-Bon and some Double Tap. The price will make your eyes water and seek loading presses.

I use a Dan Wesson 15-2 occasionally to dispatch hog or deer. Begin with a 6" barrel (or more) and what is now considered a very hot load, mount the proper bullet and the round is indeed effective. That's a lot of variables and when you find someone that says it won't cut the mustard invariably one of these factors isn't met.

It ain't no 300 yd. rifle cartridge, but meet the conditions and it is very effective in it's reasonable application. Yes Virginia, there IS a .357 hunting world...
BUT water it down at your peril.
 
USSR said:
Come back after you have put the books down and actually shot deer-size game with it. Sure, it will work (I have killed several deer with it), but to say the .357 Magnum is "the one and only hand-arm for African hunting" or any big game hunting for that matter is ludicrous. I have since put down my .357 Magnum and started using the .45 Colt for deer, which puts them down with authority. I have seen the .22 rimfire kill deer, but that doesn't make it a deer round. Just MHO based on hands-on experience.

Don
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I have shot impala sized game with .357 and guess what? Dead on impact. I have never hunted on the african continent and if you look clearly it was from an article not my own experience.
 
Animals, and men are much tougher today then they were in 1935 through the mid-60's, due in no small part to Global Warming.
And better nutrition.

Back then, .25 & .32 ACP were proven man killers, and the 25-20 & 38-40 WCF were proven deer killers.

Everyone knows Hides are much Thicker & Tougher now then they were back then.
Bullets bounce off now, that previously didn't.

Al Gore could tell you that!

rc
 
with the right bullets the 357mag can do a lot more than some think it can , what I find funny is that some of the new wiz-bang bullets out there do less than the old stand by SWC and if you can fine them the old half jacket SWC , what I think has hurt the 357mag's reputation is not just the slower speed but the bullets they're loaded with , if loaded right with the right bullets it's still the great round it has always been ,
 
I'll agree with this...if you'll stipulate that meth is a nutrient.
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I'll agree.

Except buck deer aren't snorting crack during the hunting season.
(Not that kind anyway!)

rc
 
Grizzly Cartridges makes a 150gr "Punch" round. It's a solid 150gr bullet @1400 fps and it's actually recommended for Deer hunting. They do cost A TON though @ just over $3 a round. They sell Cast and Jacketed bullet ammo too for much less.

I load their 160gr and 180gr bullets in my .357 Magnum ammo but only for hunting because those 180gr bullets are also expensive.
 
All commercial ammo in the older calibers is dumbed down these days. Thats why I load almost everything I shoot by hand. Even the data in the load manuals has been reduced, while metallurgy has improved. IMHO, there's too many damn lawyers involved these days. As long as you have a quality equipment and follow the rules of reloading you can still load the hell out of the 357. Its a tried and true caliber.
 
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