This is what happens when you draw without justification...

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Manedwolf

member
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Messages
3,693
Location
New Hampshire
Word of warning, to those who think you'll get off if you draw on someone just stealing property...especially if it's not yours AND not on your property!

Defend yourself, but don't play pretend cop. That'd be the lesson here, I think.

Man tries to thwart a thief but gets arrested instead

By MIKE KALIL
Union Leader Correspondent
17 hours, 32 minutes ago

Derry – A local man was arrested early Tuesday, accused of pulling a shotgun on a man he believed was trying to steal from an auto repair shop near his home, police said.

Police said Paul Kelly, 41, of 13B Wyman St., had his shotgun drawn on the man when they arrived. He told police he wanted to make sure the person didn't get away before authorities arrived, Derry Police Capt. Vernon Thomas said yesterday.

Kelly was arrested on a felony charge of reckless conduct and was released on $5,000 personal recognizance bail, Thomas said. He is scheduled to be arraigned in Derry District Court on Oct. 19.

Thomas said Kelly told police he believed that the man was breaking into cars at Steven's Foreign Car Service. But the man, Daniel Shaffer, 35, of Derry told police he was there to get a cell phone he had left behind, Thomas said. He does not face charges.

Police said Kelly complied with authorities' request for him to drop his firearm. Investigators determined that Kelly had been drinking alcohol before the incident and also consumed prescription medicine, Thomas said.

Even if the man had actually been breaking into cars, Thomas said, Kelly would not have been justified in pulling a gun on him because the use of deadly force is not authorized to respond to crimes on other people's property.
Click to expand...
 
Word of warning, to those who think you'll get off if you draw on someone just stealing property...especially if it's not yours AND not on your property!
Click to expand...

No, that is what happens when you draw on somebody who isn't committing a crime in a state where the threat of lethal force is not justified for protecting the property of another.

There is no evidence Shaffer was involved in any sort of crime and the cops believed him. Maybe if Kelly hand not been drinking and taking prescription medicine, he might have understood better what Shaffer was actually doing and hence not reacted in such an inappropriate manner.
 
Yes, he wasn't stealing anything...but the point being that the shotgun-holder likely would have been arrested if the guy WAS stealing something, regardless.

Protecting someone else's property from theft ON someone else's property isn't sufficient reason for threat of or use of deadly force in this state, at least.
 
By 'drawing', does that mean pointint the gun AT the suspect, or simply holding the gun?
Click to expand...

I hope it means pointing the gun at the suspect. I have run into more than one trespasser late at night at work when I just happened to be holding a 9MM.
 
By 'drawing', does that mean pointint the gun AT the suspect, or simply holding the gun?
Click to expand...
How many people have time to put on a holster when awoken by a noise at night? That and how do you hold a long gun in an un-drawn state other than not pointing it at anyone?
 
I used to go to Steven's Foreign Car Service when I owned a Nissan. I never had to pick up my car after hours, but it almost happened once (got there two minutes before closing).

If this joker had pulled a shotgun at me, and I thought I had a chance to grab some cover, he definitely would have had some rounds incoming. Thank God nobody got hurt in this case. Too bad another irresponsible gun owner ends up in the paper.
 
The real moral is:

Alcohol + firearms = legal trouble.

The better approach would have been to approach the guy with a concealed handgun and inquire as to what he was doing after having called the cops. If he turns out to be a thief, you have at least pervented him from theiving by being in his presence. If he turns out to be innocent, you didnt pull a gun on him.
 
The better approach would have been to approach the guy with a concealed handgun and inquire as to what he was doing after having called the cops. If he turns out to be a thief, you have at least pervented him from theiving by being in his presence. If he turns out to be innocent, you didnt pull a gun on him.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to rain on anyone, and I know we've all got our own opinions, but I think confrontation is the last thing to do here.

Call the cops. Be a good witness. You're not in a lethal force situation. Why risk putting YOURSELF in one?

Robert
 
If this joker had pulled a shotgun at me, and I thought I had a chance to grab some cover, he definitely would have had some rounds incoming. Thank God nobody got hurt in this case. Too bad another irresponsible gun owner ends up in the paper.
Click to expand...

You'd have gone up against a shotgun already pointed at you with your handgun still holstered? And the guy isn't shooting, just trying to hold you for the cops? :what:

I've personally seen the results of that, both parties fired, the guy with the shotgun was in the hospital being treated for a pistol wound to the stomach, the other guy was carried out in a plastic bag. The guy with the pistol *thought* he was behind cover. He found out just how good sheet metal and upholstery works as cover against 00 buckshot. He took 2 rounds, the first hit him in the chest and the second hit him in the throat and face. He didn't make a pretty corpse. I highly suspect it was a closed coffin funeral.

If someone is pointing a shotgun at you and you don't feel as though he's going to shoot, your best bet is to stand real still until the cops get there and arrest him. Anything else is suicide attempt. Now, if you think he's going to shoot anyway you might as well give it a shot, but if he's anything close to a decent shot it's pretty much "hasta la vista baby".
 
edit: nevermind

Civilians generally dont have a duty to arrest criminals, so we dont really make as wide an allowance for civilian displays of force.

I think not being intoxicated and pointing a gun at someone would probably go a long way towards convincing the police it was just an innocent misunderstanding. I suspect half the reason they arrested him was because of how freaked out the innocent guy was.
 
Once again, know your own state's laws.

Texas vignette: A buddy of mine heard suspicious noises outside his motel room. He looked. Burglary of a car. He used his shotgun as a threat to the burglar, making the guy lie on the ground while a friend call the law.

A deputy showed up and basically said, "Thanks for the help. Appreciate it."

Different states, different laws. Know yours.

Art
 
My view is that non-LEOs own guns for self-defense, not to enforce the laws. We don't have any of the legal protections that cops have, like presumptions in our favor, or the city's legal team to back us up, or immunity from personal civil suits in most cases. Also we don't have the training or legal knowledge.

This guy was drunk. He shouldn't have been handling a gun, period. From what I can tell, he's getting what he deserves.
 
Unless I fear for my life, or you are in my residence without permission, I'm not going to draw. Maybe if I saw a rape or armed robbery in progress I would step up and run the risk... maybe not... if, by drawing my ccw I could make the situation worse, I would probably leave well enough alone.

I would, however, if I thought I observed a crime in progress, immediately call 911 and do whatever I could safely do to identify the people I suspected... either by their individual description or license plate number, etc....

It's too easy to make things worse by drawing your ccw... personally, if I ever did use my weapon, I think I would probably actually USE it... I'm not going to shoot someone for stealing my neighbors television....

And, for the record, guns, booze and any kind of drugs don't mix. Actually, booze and drugs don't mix well with much of anything but trouble.
 
It says he had been drinking and consumed prescription medicine. Not very specific.

"Had been drinking alcohol" covers a wide spectrum, could be one beer or a bottle of tequila, and it's easy to jump to the conclusion that Kelly was intoxicated, which may be the intent of the author. If he was intoxicated they would have stated that so they could have a story about a drunk guy with a shotgun. As written I think it's purposely deceptive.

"Prescription medicine" also covers a wide spectrum and could be antibiotics or morphine. It's cold and flu season and here in my neck of the woods strep throat and walking pnemonia are both going around so there are lot of people on antibiotics. If that's all he took then who cares since they don't impair ability. Again the inclusion of the mention of prescription drugs could be to intentionally deceive the reader and make it appear that Kelly was on some type of strong ability impairing medication.

A story about a shotgun wielding guy who's drunk and spaced out on prescription narcotics is better than one about a guy taking antibiotics who was watching tv and drinking a beer when he saw what thought was a crime in progress and tried to do something about it. Unfortunately he made a bad decision in using the shotgun.

According to New Hampshire Criminal Code TITLE LXII CHAPTER 627:5.IV
A private person acting on his own is justified in using non-deadly force upon another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to arrest or prevent the escape from custody of such other whom he reasonably believes to have committed a felony and who in fact has committed that felony: but he is justified in using deadly force for such purpose only when he reasonably believes it necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the imminent use of deadly force.


http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lxii/627/627-mrg.htm
 
Seems to me it would have been a bad draw whether it was legal or not. I say this probably too often, but a stereo is a sh*tty thing to threaten someone's life over.

I'm most definately an advocate of drawning early, but that is in the context of you seeing a situation developing that puts you or someone else in harm's way, not in the context of you thinking someone is about to jack a CD player.

Put down the damn gun for once and tell the guy to scram, fer crap's sake.
 
Think about it from the other perspective: You go to get your phone and all of a sudden this guy with a shotgun and alcohol breath is there. He's lucky the guy wasn't an off duty cop. It's best to actually see a crime being commited before you try to citizens arrest somebody (as is usually the law).
 
I don't mean to rain on anyone, and I know we've all got our own opinions, but I think confrontation is the last thing to do here.

Call the cops. Be a good witness. You're not in a lethal force situation. Why risk putting YOURSELF in one?

Robert
Click to expand...

I am going to have to agree with this one in this case... Confronting the guy is really going out of your way and unnecessary IMO.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

K
  • Locked
Wiretap charge dropped in police video case
Replies
5
Views
441
ArmedBear
A
F
  • Locked
Videotaping Police = Felony?
2
Replies
48
Views
2K
Colonel
C
R
  • Locked
Another Home INtruder Shooting in MN
Replies
3
Views
419
Glamdring
G
Devonai
  • Locked
Home Invasion in New Hampshire
Replies
0
Views
399
Devonai
Devonai
A
  • Locked
This is a huge lawsuit for the PD...
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
Autolycus
A
Back
Top