This Ol' Smith (think 1905)

[C5rider]

Located this Smith and Wesson at the LGS. I'm a sucker for the oldies and it had been sitting in the case for a while. He needed the room and I "needed" another firearm.

So far as I've been able to tell, it's an M&P model 1905, 5-screw I believe. There is a screw in front of the trigger guard.

I think the gun has been re-finished and the guy at the LGS thought that there was a mark under the barrel that indicated that it was a factory re-finish. Whether it is, or isn't factory, it IS a nice bluing job. The fact that it isn't all original doesn't bother me. I plan on shooting it some and enjoying it.

It's a 38 S&W Special (which as far as I can tell, means 38 Special caliber. The cylinder is honed for 38 Spl rounds. It locks up pretty tight and the bore looks good. The serial # is 4668xx.

The cylinder and ejection star have only one indexing pin, which leads me to believe that it's an earlier build, but I'm not sure exactly when. Anyone care to venture on it's age?

Guy at the LGS said it had a set of diamond grips originally and he had a set that I could have purchased with the gun. I kind of like the MOP grips on it and originality hasn't ever really been my thing.

Enough jabber, here's what we really want, THE PIX!

 

[WestKentucky]

Very nice looking piece. Like the grips, really like the longer barrel length.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

That's a real beaut you got there. I'd be afraid to shoot it for chance of making it not beaut.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I think you may have a Franken-Smith there. The SN falls into the Model of 1905 4th Change series, from 241704 to 1000000, made from 1915 until 1942. The narrow end to the ejector rod means the gun is relatively late in that series. But the single pin on the extractor star was pretty exclusive with the Model 1905 and the Model 1905 1st change, made from 1905 to 1906 and 1906 to 1909, respectively.

And the front sight is not normal for a five screw hand ejector. They were usually a half round front sight, like this.



Your barrel may have been changed, I have a revolver that started out life as a 455 Hand Ejector but was changed to 44 Special at some point. It has the same diamond shaped mark on the under side of the barrel. Of course the front sight could have been altered to look like that at some point.

Look to see that all Serial Numbers match. The SN on the butt is the Serial Number of record. The SN should appear at 3 additional places on the pre-Model 10 guns. Underside of the barrel, rear of the cylinder, and underside of the extractor. The one on the underside of the extractor is the hardest to see, you need a strong light and it is often covered with goo. Check to see all these numbers match. If they do, then the gun left the factory with those specific parts on it.

Also, look under the grips for a number stamped on the frame. This can be a date stamp indicating the gun went back to S&W for rework.

Yes, I suspect it has been refinished, the finish looks too good for a gun that age, unless it sat in somebody's sock drawer for 50 years. I think I can detect a little bit of rounding over of the edges of the sideplate, but the light does not show the joint very well. The joint of the side plate should be almost invisible, they were very tightly fit at the factory. If refinished by S&W the joint should still be almost invisible.

As for shooting it, if it locks up tight and everything works right, go right ahead and shoot it. Heat treated cylinders began at approximately SN 316648. Yes, S&W always stamps 38 S&W Special on their guns because they invented the cartridge. Same as the more commonly referred to 38 Special.

 

[C5rider]

Checked the serial numbers when I bought it. Butt, cylinder and under barrel all agree. I tried to see a number on the back of the ejector star, but couldn't find one.

There are some markings under the left side grip. There is a rectangle with an R-S inside of it, an "x" down by the end of the spring and what looks like a 2 74 on the side of the grip frame. Not sure if any of these indicate any differences.

Also, there is another number 18143 on the crane and on the frame inside the crane. I assume these are assembly numbers? Again, the serial on the butt, cylinder and barrel all agree.

Interesting piece of history, even if its history is specific to the individual firearm.

 

[Onmilo]

Need the number on the bottom of the gripstrap.
If it matches the barrel, you have a nice postwar hand ejector from around 1949.
This one dates 1946, notice the half moon front sight


S&W started using ramp front sights around 1948

 

[Jim Watson]

Reckon the 2 74 means it was overhauled by S&W in February 1974?

That would agree with the ramp sight and straight extractor rod. And with the Jay Scott plastic "pearl" handles. If the dealer has the ORIGINAL walnut grips with serial number, they are highly desirable all by themselves.

 

[rcmodel]

+1
Even if the serial number of the grips doesn't match.

You darn well should have bought them if they weren't $150+ extra.

To me, those fake MOP grips would have to be gone sooner rather then later!

You know what Patten said about pearl grips don't you?
My feelings exactly!

rc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And the front sight is not normal for a five screw hand ejector. They were usually a half round front sight, like this.

This sight has been filed to give a better sight picture -- preventing glare off the rounded "half dime" front sight. I would hazard a guess that if you looked at the rear of the rear sight notch, you'd see some file work there, too. Those were not uncommon "mods" make by knowledgeable shooters back in the day.

 

[Jim Watson]

Made that way, the barrel is a replacement, lacking the clearance cut for the large knob extractor or barrel extractor... and with ramped sight blade.

 

[Jim K]

As close as I can come, that revolver dates to the mid-1920's. The diamond indicates a factory refinish, and the present finish is not correct for a revolver of that approximate date.* The 1974 date sounds about right for the factory work. It is very likely that the ejector rod was replaced by the factory at that time. It is common for a factory to replace any defective parts when rebuilding or refinishing a gun.

*It appears to be caustic blue, when a 1920-vintage gun would have Carbonia blue.

Jim

 

[rswartsell]

Well,

One thing for sure, that gun was chambered for .38 Special from day one. Smith HE's (Hand Ejectors) started in that chambering in 1899. I believe this a fine example (100% original or not) of a classic Smith "long action".

I am a Smith "action fanatic" and IMHO it never got better than this. I have owned 2 or 3 and have yet to meet their equal. If you have not observed the true collector "original or nothing" ethic it doesn't give me any heartburn at all.

I sent a 1924 to Ford's Custom Refinishing for a Master Blue refinish that looks much like yours and I believe there isn't a better way to pay "homage" to one of the finest revolvers ever produced.

It is beautiful, and function is no less than that. The only downside I can find is that I would have a hard time using it as a "beater" or hard duty gun.

This piece is an important part of revolver history and if it in it's current state is maximized for your appreciation and enjoyment then that is the highest calling it could realize.

My humble envy and kudos are yours.

P.S. I am with Patton and rcmodel. Lose the pearls and look into faux ivory from Boone Trading Co.

http://www.boonetrading.com/Pg14.html

Or have an acquaintance of mine restore the originals. He's in Devers TX and goes by swamprat.

P.S. Try that thing with some Match Grade 148 gr. wadcutters! I think you will be pleased.

 

[rswartsell]

To demonstrate;

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Interesting that the SN is stamped on the underside of the barrel, along with the diamond mark. Here is a photo of the bottom of the barrel of the 455HE I have that was converted to 44 Special. This gun has clearly been fitted with a new barrel and cylinder. Notice the SN has not been stamped on the underside of the barrel. And there is no SN stamped on the rear of the cylinder.

 

[C5rider]

Here's a close up of the front sight and the rear sight. Does anyone see any signs of modification?

Probably go out and shoot it tomorrow.

Front sight:




Rear sight:


And, just one so RC and rswartsell can rid themselves of those nasty, faux-pearl-gripped nightmares they've been having. (You KNOW I appreciate and respect you guys!)

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Nope.

Looks like a typical Model 10 sight to me. Definitely not the standard M&P 1905 half moon sight.

This is a typical Model 10, a Model 10-5 to be specific.





Here are two closeups of the Model 10 Serrated Ramp front sight.





Which makes perfect sense to me. If the gun was reworked in 1974, and it needed a new barrel, this is what Smith would have had in stock. I just don't understand why they stamped the old SN on the new barrel, which the diamond mark tells us has been changed. I also still do not understand the single pin in the ejector star, which would have been consistent with a much older Model 1905 or 1905 First Change. Are you sure about that single pin?

Whatever the case, that is not a hand filed front sight, unless the filer was very, very good. It is absolutely typical though of a standard Model 10 front sight, a model which had not yet been made when your gun was made.

 

[C5rider]

Are you sure about that single pin?

Yup.

 

[rswartsell]

C5rider,

Can I assume C5 as in Galaxy? If so, I'm an ex "wing nut" too. Never rode the aluminum cloud though. Awesome beasts.

 

[C5rider]

I wish!

Actually, it stands for the 4-wheeled kind. As in C5 Corvette. Not nearly as fast and infinitesimally-smaller storage!

 

[Jim K]

That rear sight is not consistent with a mid-1920's date, either. The M&P in those years had 1/10 inch sights, not the 1/8 that came later. Earlier, they had a U notch rear and a thin half-moon front sight. It looks like S&W installed a new barrel, then recut the rear notch to match. Unless they replaced the frame and numbered it to match the old gun.

Machining the frame would seem to be a lot of trouble, but I have seen S&W do some amazing things to keep customers happy. I once had to replace the hand on a gun that had the hammer block safety in the sideplate, operated by a ramp on the hand. I sent them the hand, and got back a new one, with the ramp pinned to the hand with two tiny pins and carefully machined down! It had to have taken a skilled machinist an hour to set up and make that hand. I can't imagine any company, even S&W, doing that today.

Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Like I said before, I think its a Franken-Smith. But that doesn't mean it isn't a good gun and a good shooter. Do be sure it locks up properly before you shoot it.

 

[rswartsell]

And like I said before,

If you have a Smith long action, in the era of heat treated cylinders (beginning about 1920), with a Model 10 barrel and ejector rod, it doesn't give me any heartburn at all.

It appears the work was done by Smith and Wesson and has potential to rate among the best.

The proof is in the use. Try the wadcutters and expect only the best from the action and report back.

If it shoots like a world class .38 revolver, it is one.

 

[MartinS]

Make her happy, put the faux pearls back on her, it was how she was dressed when you met her and a little cheap flash can't hurt you.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Original or not, she's a beauty. Congrats.

 

[WestKentucky]

If you don't want the pearl then please shoot me a price. Since I saw yours I have been looking at them on a few sites and hoping for a deal. They put just enough flash on the gun to really make it stand out from the crowd. Like a truck with nice wheels and tinted windows, it just makes a pretty object a little prettier and a little more unique.