Thought of an anti-bear rifle.

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Nightcrawler

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Okay, from what I'm told from our Alaskan members, in order to defend against bears, you need a weapon that's powerful and can be brought into play quickly. Fast follow-up shots may be important as well.

Currently, the only autoloading rifle I know of that's suited for such things is the Browning BAR, which is available in powerful cartridges like 7mm Rem Mag.

In any case, I was thinking that maybe something entirely different would be in order.

Let's start with the VEPR rifle, from MOLOT of Russia. I was going to post a pic of it, but it came out huge, and not all of our members are on DSL.

It's based on the heavy, sturdy RPK receiver, and is why these guns weigh in at nine pounds.

First, scale it up. Make a large, long action version of this weapon, and chamber it in .45-70, .338 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, and others. Maybe those new short magnums would be easier to fit in this gun (they did it with a FAL).

The barrel is already chrome lined and hammer forged. If the parkerizing isn't weather resistant enough for Alaska, hard chrome the whole thing, or give it one of those polymer coatings. Replace the wood with synthetic stocks with big cushy recoil pads.

It'd have five and ten round box magazines. 10+1 shots of .338 Win Mag at your disposal ought to get the job done. Will it be as accurate as a bolt gun? No, but most bear attacks happen up close and personal, and you need to get a shot off fast.

If the AK safety slows the Alaskan guide down too much, base the weapon on the Super VEPR instead!

Super_w_Vomz_copy.jpg


Easier to use shotgun style safety, different magazine release, and has a detachable scope rail for the mounting of standard rings (though really, I like the AK side bracket mounts).

Weight might be a problem, as these guns woudl have to be solid to stand up to the poweful rounds they'd be chambered for. Recoil buffers would be a must.

In any case, even if it wouldn't make a great bear rifle, I think a 10+1 AK in .45-70 and .338 would just be really cool to have. :cool:
 
I can't imagine more perfect bear medicine than the Marlin 1895GS -- stainless, lever action (fast followup shots), ultimately reliable (proven Marlin action), light (6.75 lbs), handy (18.5" barrel), and plenty powerful (4+1 rounds of .45-70).

There's a guy (forget his name but Jeff Cooper refers to him a lot) who smiths a version of this that converts it into a breakdown, smooths the action and adds a low power scope. Word is that a lot of bush pilots carry around one in their plane.

I think you perscription has already been filled...
 
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Yeah, but I like the idea of a semiauto in this role. 'Sides, you can't make tube-fed levergun in .338 or 7mm Rem Mag. I hear that these rounds are often used up in Alaska where they have really big, really mean bears.
 
Bear defense rifle??

How about the one you are carrying in your hands while hunting whatever ELSE it is you are hunting, like sitka deer or caribou??

How about the same rifle you'd pick to HUNT a big nasty bear? Like a guide gun or 375 H&H on a slicked up mauser action?

I had some friends of friends go surf kayaking in Alaska a few years back. They were asked by the guy issuing their permits "what kind of shotgun are you bringing?" At the time they had no idea why they might have needed a shotgun. :rolleyes: After a lengthy explanation of coastal bears, the kayakers spent a few weeks actually learning how to use the shotgun (shooting clays, etc) As it turns out they got lucky. Halfway through their trip, a bear tried to get into their tent on the beach. They had stowed the shotgun between them, and managed to get it into play and empty it through the tent wall at the bear. The next morning a coast guard boat spotted them repairing their tent and sent a Zodiac out to assist them . They explained that a bear had tried to get them. (Said bear was dead 200 yards or so away on the beach full of buckshot) When asked for assistance, the kayakers only requested two things: some nylon thread to repair the tent, and more shotgun shells as they had fired all five they brought.

Ok so the story is anecdotal. But as far as I know its true. The kayakers were given ten rounds of buckshot and they finished their trip. (me.. i might have cried all the way home to mommy after a bear tried to eat me). I'm not sure exactly WHAT part of alaska, if it was a brown or black or grizzly, nor the size of the bear, all I know is the had a Remington shotgun in 12 ga. with buckshot.

And according to Alaska kayak-permit guys, and Kieth Rogan, and many others, a light and handy 12 bore ought to do the trick (though I'd load it with slugs).

So before you go blasting up the woods with a .338 semi-auto AK.. maybe you really should assess your relative bear threat level.. like are you going kayaking in Kodiak?

My 2¢


:scrutiny:
 
Bears are attacking enmasse?

Yup, the bears are raising an army and they are being trained by the Chinese to do large "bear wave" attacks with whole divisions.
 
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Dr. Rob, the bears I had in mind were the ones in Alaska, where I"ve heard that such weapons like a .44 Magnum revolver, good enough for the lower 48, won't cut it, and the bears tend to be a bit meaner.

The only difference between my idea and, say, a Browning BAR is that the Kalashnikov action is simpler, more reliable, and easier to field strip. Obviously, if you don't want a 10 round "high capacity" magazine, you can use a 5-round hutning mag; it might be mandated by law, depending on where you're hutning. Also, the Kalash type weapon would certainly be much easier to strip, clean, and maintain than any "sporting" semiauto I've ever encountered. Disassembly of, say, the Remington 7400 is simply a pain in the butt.

It wouldn't, by any means, have to be a full-size rifle, either. Chop the barrel to 16", and cut the weight down as much as possible. It'd have an overall length of about 36", and weigh about eight and a half pounds. Pretty handy, I think. But then, my definition of a "heavy" weapon is different than a lot of other people's.

I've heard of Alaskan bear hunters using .338 and 7mmRem; we're talking about very large, and very dangerous game here. Especially if you're hunting it, I don't know that you'd want to get close enough to be able to kill it with a shotgun. Depends on how gutsy you feel, I suppose.

I'm quite content to let the big bears stay in Alaska, but there are those who do like to go after them for sport, I'm told.

Note, too, that my rifle idea wouldn't be limited to bears, obviously, you should it at whatever you wanted. I don't know, what do people hunt with BARs and boltguns in 7mm and .338? Seems a bit much for deer. .30-06 will take Elk, I'm told.
 
Well sure. I'm certainly not mandating that anyone use a .338 for bear, or anything else.

On the other hand, I thought of a rifle that, to me, is simply an easier to maintain weapon in the same category as the Browning BAR Mk. II. A simple "I think a .338/.45-70/7mm semiauto is inappropriate for bear hunting" would've gotten your point across just as well.
 
Well its a pretty cool idea to me Nightcrawler, if not a tad expensive. :D But I think that I'd go with a 12g pump shotty, or a lever action big bore. But I do like the idea of 10 rounds instead of 5. I once asked suggestions about guns for that reason because I was thinking of taking up an old friend of mine on a trip up to Alaska for a camping trip, and low and behold, he's a guide pilot! I know he'd have probably plenty of gunpower, but I wanted my own. But I still like the idea just for the heck of it if not for a practical reason.
 
I have an acquaintance who teaches the bear school for USGS, for their personnel going to Alaska- probably bigger bears than in Michigan. 12 gauge only, no big bore Casulls, rifles etc. They have a motorized bear target that basically simulates stepping into traffic going 35 mph. Pretty intimidating. This is for self defense, not hunting, but, based on experience- 12 gauge only.
 
I think that there was an article in the current Guns & Ammo Annual about a special course at Gunsite about defense against dangerous animals(i.e. bears) which emphasized the use of .45-70 leverguns, 12ga shotguns and super-magnum-class handguns.

I also mind me that McCann Industries in Spanaway, WA - [email protected] - may have been converting M1 Garands to .338Mag - the converted rifles even feed from Garand clips, although you can only get 5 .338's in each clip. Though a bit pricier than an RPK-type rifle, a "tankerized" 5-shot .338 Garand sounds like a handy bit of bear medicine to me.

Or, instead of an RPK as a base, perhaps one of the Romanian Dragunov-type rifles could be used as a base gun, as its action is already scaled-up for 7.62X54.
 
Pretty cool, Kor. I found McCann's website at http://www.mccannindustries.com/index.html

Only $2,500 plus your Garand (for the base model, of course).

Anyway, I guess a 12 gauge or .338 bolt would have to do for me. I really don't think that there would be much time to accurately unload a semi-auto under most circumstances.
 
I know nothing about bears, but from all I've read, you'll be lucky to get off one shot when/if attacked - at 35 MPH from 10 feet away.

Semis, bolts, pumps doesn't seem to matter much. You get - one - shot --- if that.

Make it count.
 
My middle brother went to Alaska last year for a fishing and hiking trip. Took his HS2000 along in 9mm, asked me to load him some 147gr XTP's, told him he was beyond having screws loose. Offered him my Rem870 with the 18.5" barrel and some slugs, or my .45/70. He said he didn't need em, if it was really needed it was gonna be close and he'd shoot him in the head. I quit argueing and loaded him 50 hot 147gr loads and wished him luck and told him to take some trash bags so they could get his pieces back. He saw his first track and put on his tennis shoes and left the GS at the place they where staying.

I spent a summer in Canada a few years ago and I can assure you I am not going anywhere without an 870 or a Guide Gun in .45/70 with some of those Buffalo Bore loads. Isn't someone building a .50AE on an M1 carbine action with 10rd magazine? I thought I had seen an article on one in a gun rag someplace. Handy, quick to point, and a potent load, not a .45/70 but maybe the handy makes up for it.
 
Alaskan Co-Pilot

That's it...thanks gunfucious

Nightcrawler, it's a neat mental exercise but I still think you're looking for an answer to a question that already has an answer.

.45-70 will take any dangerous game in North America handily. It will take any game in the world with a slightly slimmer margin. The Marlin lever gun is a proven package. If you're going to all the trouble to increase the mag capacity, why not have an 1895GS rebarreled with a 24" barrel and up the mag to 6 or 7?
 
The problem with all these weird semi auto apparatus is that they havent proven to be 100% reliable which for bear defense is what its all about. I have shot 1 Kodiak and numerous Blacks with appropiate rifles; .338 , .375 45-70. The guys needing defence , like scientists ect. to a man use; 12ga short barrel pumps with slugs with the occasional heavy rifles mentioned. Guides use heavier calibers yet because they are batting cleanup.While not the weapon of choice a heavy caliber hand gun with deep penetrating hard cast or super controlled expansion bullets would prove very effective if shots could be delivered to brain ect. The problem with stopping a bear attack is similar to the same problem as a human attack to a much greater extent. A determined adversary could take hits to heart or lungs or other vitals and not bleed to unconsciousness before killing the shooter. Combine that with the kind of nerves of steel and skill to hit a charging target and you see why anything you could handly carry would be sub minimal. Moral , dont get in posistion to get "surprised" and plant your heavy caliber slug to break down shoulder and heart or maybe spine. Post guards in shifts when along prime bear habitat, use your superior knowledge and marksmanship!
 
Hehehe, this is funny. Bears in New Orleans... Hehehe. I was just checking out all of the posters' locations here. Most of the people in bear country agree, 12ga Slug is probably the best medicine. Lightweight and CHEAP which is the primary concern. If you have the money, spend it on a 45/70 or some other short rifle. Follow-up shots are usually a joke. A bear can run VERY fast and you're likely to get one shot only. Big magnums are fine, but you best have a double rifle, because working a bolt with a charging bear that you've just grazed and upset greatly is NOT something I want to have to do.

The bottom line is that bear attacks are so rare, even up here, that the gun will likely be carried lots, shot never. After a few fishing trips, you're going to start leaving the gun on the ATV, then in the Truck, then at home. Bear country is hard on ANY gear and that includes $1,500 WWG rifles. Be willing to beat the crap out of the gun. Don't need the takedown feature, bears don't wait for you to assemble and load the gun.

Finally, don't put a stupid pistol-grip on the shotgun. Bears are stopped by well placed shots to vital organs that do massive damage. Put that shotty to your shoulder and place your shot well. You can obliterate the heart, and the bear will still have about 4 minutes of kick-butt left in it. Don't aim for the head. Unless you hit an eye or ear cavity or get a square-on shot, most shotgun slugs and bear calibers are going to fail.

If you have lots of time to think about these things, the bear probably isn't a threat. If you have the time, try other methods to ward the bear off. Shooting a bear that isn't a threat will MAKE IT A THREAT if you don't kill it. If you do kill it, you have to prove that the bear was a threat to you.
 
I think that a pump shotgun prefferably 18" barrel with MC choke and a folding stock/ pistol grip combo would work great. The ammo load would be: first 3 shots 3" mag 1oz. slugs, followed by
3 rds of 000 Buck.
- And a can of bear strength pepper spray velcro'd to the underside of the mag tube, in true Skunkabilly Tactical fashion.- Just in case...
 
Take a look at the Marlin 1895CB 'Cowboy Model'. 9+1 of .45/70. According to the spec sheet, though, it is a LOOONG gun....26" octagon taper barrel, overall length of 44.5"

Although 10 rounds of .45/70 in a slick Marlin lever gun....:D
 
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