Thoughts On This Recovered Cast Bullet

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Hartkopf

Hartkopf

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Tried my hand at casting bullets for the first time. 44 Magnum, 245gr Lee mold, sized to .429 and shot out of a sbh w/10.5” barrel. The only powder I had was H110 so it wasn’t the best combination. (I read Unique is a good choice) There was very minor leading in the barrel after 8 shots and only in one small area. It came out with no effort but I’m not sure how bad it would get after 50 shots.

Accuracy was good but didn’t have time to really get good groups, I wanted to recover a bullet for inspection. Recovered only 1 of 8 bullets after going through a mile and a half of water.:eek:

I used recovered range lead with a little hardening lead (30% antimony)and a couple slugs of tin. Not scientific but I’m sure I can duplicate the mix fairly well.

I’m totally green to casting so any helpful thoughts are welcome. C6F7D3D4-DC9D-4661-B954-D2D1E0A5262B.jpeg
 
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Do you have a before photo to go with that one? The erosion at the base looks fairly substantial.

What did you fire it into? I know you said 1.5 miles of water but it would have been done in under 15 feet, just curious about the distortion at the shoulder?
 
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It's too hard. Unless you are using the 44 Mag to shoot dangerous game or watusi sized animals, in which case a copper solid is probably better anyway, "range lead, plus 30% antimony, plus tin" probably makes for an alloy over 20 BHN. It's too hard. No pistol bullet fired under 1500 fps wants to be harder than 12 BHN.
 
Because the reduced portion at the base of the bullet encourages gas cutting and distortion, which can be seen in the pictured example. It is sometimes possible for a checked design to shoot well without a check, but in my experience it requires other factors, such as sizing and hardness, to be just right. That does not appear to have been the case here.
 
The photo certainly appears to show a bullet designed for a gas check; the base appears to be narrower diameter than the first driving band. Also, if not a gas check design, H110 is not a good propellant for a plain base design.

But, below is a link to the cast bullet articles of Glen Fryxell on the Low Angeles Silhouette Club website. Glen is not the only voice on shooting cast, and not everything he writes is gospel, but these articles are fantastic resources and doing as Glen says will rarely, if ever, see you wrong.

http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm
 
I am concerned that this thread is about to degenerate. I will try to help the O.P. and then bow out - though I will add my support of Mr. Fryxell's work. If anything I write is contradicted by him, go with him.

Firstly - I congratulate the O.P. on getting started with casting. It is not difficult, but it also is not easy. Keep at it and the results will follow.

Next - your bullet is almost certainly too small. It is generally recomended to size your bullets to .001 over your throat diameter. My understanding is that Ruger generally cuts throats to .430+, meaning that sizing to .431 is usually best. I have heard of SBH throats as small as .429, which still would want bullets sized to .430. Cast .429 bullets would be best in .428 throats, which I never have encountered in a Ruger.

Then, it sounds like your bullets really are very hard. That almost always is a mistake in a revolver. We really want the base of the bullet to expand upon firing. That way it fills the bore, which reduces or eliminates leading. If the bullet is too hard, it may not expand properly, and leading can result.

Gas checks: a mild point of contention among cast bullet enthusiasts. There are people who say a checked design will not work without a check, and people who say it will always work. I am in the middle. As I mentioned, I have found that a properly fitted bullet of the correct hardness will work without a check even if it is designed for one. But one of the points of the check is to simplify things. It allows the use of a poorly fitted bullet, or one of improper hardness, while still encouraging success. For the beginning caster, using a checked bullet with a check greatly increases your chances of success. Using a checked bullet without a check is, in my opinion, best reserved for more advanced levels.

H110 and Unique: I believe H110 is a great powder for the .44 Magnum. It does have a narrow working range, however. 24 grains is traditionally considered "the" load for a 240 grain cast bullet, with 23 or perhaps 22.5 grains as a "starting" load. I refer you to Hodgdon's online loading data - H110 really does not perform well if the pressure drops off very much. Unique is a wonderful powder and I probably burn more of it than anything else, but it's not a great powder if you are trying to reach Magnum velocities. 8.5 grains is a traditional load which gets you into warmish .44 Special territory. Alliant says you can go up to 11 grains with your bullet, but in my experience that is a poor load - unless you use gas checks.

Short version: in your shoes I would measure my throats and size to .001 over that measurement. I would ditch the antimony, or at least greatly reduce it. And I would either add gas checks or buy a plain base mold. Then I would load up with 23 grains of H110 if I want a Magnum load or 8.5 grains of Unique if I want a target load. Combined, that is nearly a guarantee of success.

Shorter version: download and study Fryxell's guide and then ignore everything else you find online.

I wish you the best and hope you will keep us updated!
 
Good to see you casting your own bullets. The 44cal's are a good place to start & you'll find it doesn't take long to come up with several different plinking bullet/load combo's.

You really need 1 or 2 fast burning powders (bullseye/clays/etc) along with a couple medium powders (unique/aa#5/power pistol/ect) and as always keep your h110 around.

You're alloy looks good for your load, look at your lube grooves you'll see they are compressed. There are a couple of things you should do if you really want to get the highest performance out of your cast bullets. Take the time to get a 3-ring notebook, binder, anything to write/store what you've done. You can write down what alloy you used along with stapling targets in it to go back to for reference.

I use a bunch of range scrap for casting 90%+ of my shooting needs is covered with plain range scrap. I like to make up large batches of range scrap at 1 time doing 150# pots that yield +/- 100# of ingots that are always in the 8/9bhn range. It's good to start out with a alloy that's pretty consistent simply because you can use it until it fails and then work on blending other alloys with it. Once you've found the limits of the range scrap alloy you will find the caliber doesn't matter, the velocity doesn't matter. The pressure ceiling is +/- consistent between calibers.

If I were you I'd cast bullets with your range scrap. Then weigh them and drop them in your cylinders as cast. You want the bullets to have to be pushed thru the cylinders or at least cast out 1/1000th's (max) smaller then the cylinders. As you add antimony or tin or both to your alloy the harder bullets will weigh less (that's why you weigh the bullets) along with being larger in diameter.

The trade off comes in if you can't cast a large enough bullet to fit your cylinders. You'll have to cast a softer bullet that will expand but is initially smaller in diameter or use higher pressure loads.

You really should consider getting into pc'ing your cast bullet. It isn't that much $$$ to get into coating your own bullets. The pc will not only increase the diameter of your cast bullets. I run plain range scrap 8/9bhn cast bullets up to 25,000psi when coated in every caliber I cast for (rifles/pistols/revolvers).

Anyway cast up some strait range scrap check the cylinder fit. Get that sorted out and have fun.
 
Thanks for the help everybody! Ok looks like I'll go softer but let me be a little more clear on what I added to the range scrap.

15 pounds range scrap + one pound of 70/30 lead/antimony + 1.5oz tin. (all aprox)
So that works out to 251.2oz lead(range scrap so not sure % exactly) + 4.8oz antimony + 1.5oz tin.

I couldn't find .430 gas checks when I ordered everything but I'll keep an eye out.

The bullets were dropping from the mold at .431. That might have been just right.:oops: I'll work on slugging my barrel and probably finding a .430 sizer.
 
Might want to consider dropping your alloy of [30% : range scrap : tin] to [.75 : 4 : .1]. Plenty hard and it would save you money. Do you have the alloy calculator?
 
Hartkopf said:
Thanks for the help everybody! Ok looks like I'll go softer but let me be a little more clear on what I added to the range scrap.

15 pounds range scrap + one pound of 70/30 lead/antimony + 1.5oz tin. (all aprox)
So that works out to 251.2oz lead(range scrap so not sure % exactly) + 4.8oz antimony + 1.5oz tin.

I couldn't find .430 gas checks when I ordered everything but I'll keep an eye out.

The bullets were dropping from the mold at .431. That might have been just right.:oops: I'll work on slugging my barrel and probably finding a .430 sizer.
Click to expand...


Your alloy is fine. That gives you a BHN of around 11.5

Gas Checks https://www.sagesoutdoors.com/44-caliber-copper-gas-checks/
 
fxvr5 said:
???
Click to expand...

I had forgotten that checked designs without checks is a third rail among bullet casters and assumed that your initial reply was leading up to an argument. If I assumed too much I apologize.
 
.38 Special said:
I had forgotten that checked designs without checks is a third rail among bullet casters and assumed that your initial reply was leading up to an argument. If I assumed too much I apologize.
Click to expand...

You assumed too much.
 
The only thing I'm going to add is this:

For some reason it always tickles me to see the imprint of the powder grains on the bottom of a lead projectile.

Just think of the pressure built up to slam the unburnt grains into the lead, leaving marks.

It also makes one see that the powder doesn't burn all at once. I mean, if the powder grain had already burnt, it couldn't leave its imprint on the bare bottomed bullet.
 
Here’s another view. I never considered powder being imprinted in the base. I thought it was the lead getting vaporized. F45C70D9-FCBB-4576-BFDF-9F3715B3AF87.jpeg
 
Gas Checks raise the cost of shooting by about 4 cents a round. I have not seen a need for them on my flat base 44 mags bullets. Your bullet may work ok without a check? Testing is needed. Same for possible leading. The target knows what works.

Range scrap lead hardness is always a guessing game. I reclaimed it for many years from our indoor range. Having never tested hardness, i have always added a small amount of linotype for the 357/44magnums. If i cant mark the bullets with a thumb nail, they are good to go.

The .430" is my standard sizing diameter. Has worked well in SBHs & M29s. Not great in a Marlin 44 mag with micro rifling.

Many lubes available. 50/50 was good for years, till the alox was changed years ago.

castbullets.JPG

Have loaded 296/110 @ 23 grs for the 240 gr bullets that tip the scale closer to 250 grs. The WLP is used in starline brass.
As i have gotten older & just had the S&W M29 up graded/repaired, been down loading with 10 grs of Unique. But still a fairly heavy load.
 
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243winxb said:
Gas Checks raise the cost of shooting by about 4 cents a round. I have not seen a need for them on my flat base 44 mags bullets. Your bullet may work ok without a check? Testing is needed. Same for possible leading. The target knows what works.

Range scrap lead hardness is always a guessing game. I reclaimed it for many years from our indoor range. Having never tested hardness, i have always added a small amount of linotype for the 357/44magnums. If i cant mark the bullets with a thumb nail, they are good to go.

The .430" is my standard sizing diameter. Has worked well in SBHs & M29s. Not great in a Marlin 44 mag with micro rifling.

Many lubes available. 50/50 was good for years, till the alox was changed years ago.

View attachment 914922

Have loaded 296/110 @ 23 grs for the 240 gr bullets that tip the scale closer to 250 grs. The WLP is used in starline brass.
As i have gotten older & just had the S&W M29 up graded/repaired, been down loading with 10 grs of Unique. But still a fairly heavy load.
Click to expand...

Does that 429421 have a round grease groove? I ask because I've only seen them with a square grease groove.
 
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