THR Mythbusting Powder Measure Drift

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LiveLife

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In the spirit of THR mythbusting of digital scales and plated bullets differences, I would like assistance from THR community in confirming or busting the powder measure drift notion.

The LASC did a comparison of powder measure drop standard deviation (see table below) but that page is no longer active - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=761239
SD - CH-4D / Redding / Harrell / B&M / RCBS / Lee / Hornady / Lyman 55

AA #9 - 0.000 - 0.000 - 0.000 - 0.000 - 0.032 - 0.000 - 0.043 - 0.037
I 4227 - 0.025 - 0.032 - 0.038 - 0.102 - 0.000 - 0.051 - 0.031 - 0.061
Unique - 0.145 - 0.127 - 0.150 - 0.100 - 0.129 - 0.142 - 0.139 - 0.185
I 4198 - 0.138 - 0.177 - 0.103 - 0.125 - 0.169 - 0.141 - 0.170 - 0.114
SR4759 - 0.128 - 0.099 - 0.151 - 0.127 - 0.146 - 0.157 - 0.135 - 0.205

Average - 0.087 - 0.087 - 0.088 - 0.091 - 0.095 - 0.098 - 0.104 - 0.120
The LASC powder measure comparison did not check for powder measure drift so I figured it would be good to verify that for THR members/guests.

So THR members with powder measures, this is a group project and share with us:

- Up to about how many drops were made without detectable drift (Let's say more than .2 gr of drift that stayed drifted and not swing range)

- At how many drops the measure started drifting

- Largest drift range measured

Thank you in advance!
 
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I have two Ohaus 10-10 (.1 gr resolution), Lee Safety (.05 gr resolution), FA DS-750 (.1 gr resolution) and Gemini-20 (.02 gr resolution) scales.

All scales have been verified with Ohaus ASTM class 6 stainless steel check weights - https://www.zoro.com/ohaus-calibration-weight-set-500-to-1mg-80850110/i/G0843236/

My drops will likely be checked on Ohaus 10-10/Gemini-20 scales.

I have C-H 502 micrometer, Dillon, Lee Perfect and Pro Auto Disks/Adjustable charge bars. I don't plan on buying additional powder measures as I am happy with what I have and that's why I requested assistance from other THR members.
 
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I saw this same information (site has since been removed) and purchased a C-H 502. I have made a few "long runs" with my C-H both rifle (mostly IMR 4064) and pistol (mostly Universal) and found very little,if any drift. I set the powder measure at the beginning of the session and normally don't have to re-adjust through 100 or so charges, checked with my Lyman/Ohaus D5 every 5-8 drops. When re-adjustment was needed it was for less than .2 gr but more than 1.0, IIRC. The failing of my "tests" was I didn't bother with recording variations, I just moved the thimble and kept reloading. So, mebbe my info is of little worth to this thread...
 
Same here. It was the LASC comparison with lowest SD compared to other powder measures that made me buy the C-H 502 now sold by CH4D - https://www.ch4d.com/Media/files/manuals/502.pdf

I will not be testing Pro Auto Disk as use of fixed volumetric disks cannot drift regardless of number of drops.

We could use PAD as reference benchmark for drifting of drops.

Based on my experience, even after 1000+ round reloading session, PAD will only drop the usual variance range of +/- .1 gr for small granule powders (W231/HP-38/Bullseye/BE-86/WSF) and .2+ for large flake powders (Unique/Red Dot/Promo etc.).
 
I know I run Titegroup in my Hornady progressive. When I first started using my progressive, I weighed every drop using my Hornady Auto Charge and for 100 rounds, every throw was exactly the same.

I haven't tried Unique or something of large flake in it.


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Thanks for the replies. So far we have these without drifting:

Lee Pro Auto Disk - Various small granule powders - 1000+ charges - Ohaus 10-10/Gemini-20 - bds

C-H 502 - IMR 4064/Universal - 100 or so charges - Lyman/Ohaus D5 - mdi

Hornady (LNL AP) - Titegroup - 100 charges - Hornady Auto Charge - jwrowland77
 
Any more volunteers?

We are trying to determine how many cycles different powder measures will drop before showing any drifting to use as Quality Control check points to weigh powder charges.

Of course, different amount of wear can contribute to the level of drift, hence why I am seeking the assistance of THR community.
 
I have used a RCBS Uniflow for everything I've loaded for the last 15 years or so. The only problem I had with "drift" was before I learned to settle the powder before I started dropping charges. The charge would get heavier for many drops, until the powder in the reservoir got settled from the slight tap and consistent "fall." By settling the powder by tapping lightly with my fingers, I'll get consistent drops for the entire volume of the reservoir. After refilling, I resettle and make a few drops and it's right back on, +/- .1 gr.


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I would suggest recording temp and humidity each time for anyone not in a climate controlled environment (where once is enough). I suspect climate has a small but measurable impact on constant volume charge weights.
 
I will not be testing Pro Auto Disk as use of fixed volumetric disks cannot drift regardless of number of drops.

.

:confused:

Huh?? It certainly can "drift" and does.

Yes, it is a volumetric measure but so are all the others They have a hole and once you set the adjustment screw it is just as fixed as a pre made hole in the disc,?

Also if comparing other measures please indicate the model number of those units.
 
Rule3, I am not talking about the drop range (say +/- .1 gr) but drift of more than .2 gr and drop average staying after the drift.

When other USPSA match shooters found my match loads loaded on Pro 1000 with Pro Auto Disk shot comparably and more accurately than rounds loaded on their presses/powder measures, we actually went to different shooters' houses with scales and calipers to measure the consistency of loads.

What we found during 500-1000+ round reloading sessions is that some powder measures drifted to the point where difference between initial rounds loaded (yes, we tapped hoppers and dropped charges until powder was sufficiently settled in the hoppers) and final rounds loaded varied in weight to the point where when all the rounds were put into the same ammo bag/box (most of us match shooters did), random grabs of rounds could jump in charge weight enough to show on paper.

With fixed holes in the auto disk (and I am talking about Pro Auto Disk with elastomer wiper at bottom of measure and not the regular Auto Disk which lacks the wiper), powder charges cannot drift even after 10,000+ cycles and could only vary in the drop range (which is less than +/- .1 gr for most small granule powders).

Since I am happy with C-H 502/Dillon/Lee Perfect/Lee Pro Auto Disk powder measure drop variance, I won't be buying additional powder measure to test drift.

So I am asking THR members if they experienced drift in powder charge drop weight. If so, at what number of drops and by how much. If not, how many charge drops they made without detecting drift in weight.

tkroenlein said:
I have used a RCBS Uniflow for everything I've loaded for the last 15 years or so. The only problem I had with "drift" was before I learned to settle the powder before I started dropping charges. The charge would get heavier for many drops, until the powder in the reservoir got settled from the slight tap and consistent "fall." By settling the powder by tapping lightly with my fingers, I'll get consistent drops for the entire volume of the reservoir. After refilling, I resettle and make a few drops and it's right back on, +/- .1 gr.
Good point and it's the reason why regardless of powder measure I use, I lightly tap the hopper about 10 times with finger tips to settle the powder before I drop charges to check for weight consistency.

GaryL said:
I would suggest recording temp and humidity each time for anyone not in a climate controlled environment (where once is enough). I suspect climate has a small but measurable impact on constant volume charge weights.
While I record the ambient temperature for chrono testing (to show temperature sensitivity of powder), I do not record the temperature/humidity when pouring powder into the hopper as powder goes from container to hopper and lid to measure applied and powder returned to container after reloading session. I do not think the short time the powder is exposed to atmosphere, enough moisture can affect the drop weights. I could be wrong and perhaps others can comment on this.
 
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:confused:

Huh?? It certainly can "drift" and does.

Yes, it is a volumetric measure but so are all the others They have a hole and once you set the adjustment screw it is just as fixed as a pre made hole in the disc,?

Also if comparing other measures please indicate the model number of those units.
I'm with ya on this and BDS's explanation above doesn't explain anything.

How does a fixed hole "drift"?

I can understand electronic scales drifting, but a fixed hole powder measure. Are you telling me the hole gets bigger? or what?
 
With fixed holes in the disk, powder charges cannot drift even after 10,000+ cycles and could only vary in the drop range (which is less than +/- .1 gr for most small granule powders).

I agree with Rule3.

First, all of my powder measures have micrometer adjusters so I can tell if the cavity changes size during operation. They do not.

Second, I have found that the charge weight frequently drifts several tenths during a production run without any changes to the powder measure setting.

Generally, I attribute the changes to variable operation (operator error) and variable settling in the hopper over time, due to the powder level dropping and refilling the hopper.

If my reloading session is long enough, the powder drift tends to settle out to negligible changes.

While my observations are un-scientific, they have been made of several decades of loading.
 
BDS, I don't know if this will fit in with the experiment, but I have one of my LNL APs set for 9mm. The powder measure is set to drop 4.1 grains of Promo. And, even though it's not best practice, I leave the powder in the hopper. I have it marked as Promo.
I check whenever I get back to the press to do a batch, dropping several charges to ensure everything is flowing OK. It mostly remains at the 4.1 gr setting within the normal .1 gr variance I've normally encountered with that measure.
I verify the weights every 25-50 rounds dropped and it's within the .1 variation. I've loaded around 1200 rounds over the last 3 months without any adjustments.
Now, one thing that I do notice is that sometimes on the first throw, after not using it for a day or two, it's .2 grs over. That is one consistency in drift that I have found, but on the next and subsequent throws it's back to the original setting.

So, how do we report this data point?
 
The only true drift I have noticed on the Lee Autodisk system is related to the powder level in the hopper. Otherwise, variations in throw weight seem to be random.


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Rule3/AR-Bossman/cfullgraf, I think I need to further explain. The point of these "mythbusting" thread is to either confirm or bust the notions we often discuss/disagree about. Instead of tossing out subjective theories, factual objective data will prove whether these notions are true.

You claim "How can fixed hole drift?" and that's exactly the notion I am trying to confirm or bust on this thread.

When my reloading/shooting mentor told me to do QC check of powder drops on Dillon 550 every 50-100 drops but I didn't need to on Pro 1000, I asked the same question, "How can fixed hole drift?" and he answered that fixed hole on Pro Auto Disk cannot but on Dillon he has seen drifting of charge drops of .2+ gr. Since he shot bullseye matches, he wanted to eliminate reloading variables as much as possible. When I checked with other match shooters if they did QC check of powder drops, many of them said yes. When I asked why, they said because their powder measures drifted and hence why they all implemented QC check of powder charges every so many drops.

So, I have done 400,000+ cycles on various Pro Auto Disk measures to comfortably say the fixed holes on disk cannot drift charge drops.

THR members with other powder measures - Can you run 500-1000+ cycles of the powder measures and verify whether final drops are consistent within the initial variance range after powder settled in the hopper?

Thank you.
 
I guess it is all in your definition of "drift" I have used a Lee PRO auto disc for years and was very happy with it. The fluctuations are due to powder and the type of powders. The notorious Unique will fluctuate more than say H110 But that is due to the powder.Stick powder did not do well at all.

Once a disc is chosen I do not find it any different than say my RCBS charge master. A hole is a hole. The Lee Charge bar is the same only smaller?

How about the Lee Perfect Powder Measure?. Although cheap it actually is very accurate and would measure stick powder better than my RCBS It uses the same system of a "micrometer" type set screw,

I switched over to the Lee Auto Drum and did tests with several hard to meter powders and it is spot on (good enough for me) There are several threads on this measure when it first came out.

So to me, drift, is in electronic measures

If my RCBS metal screw is in tight with the lock nut there is no way for it to change?
 
Food for thought.

Powder variation during dispenser via volume is highly a function of the powder shape and size. The deviations is due to variation of the air gap that is trapped as the powder stacks. Fine ball powders will have less deviation than flake powder than extruded powder. Finer the ball/flakes the less deviation you will have.

Then there are powders that are a blend of several powders. These could be a flake size/density thing if not evenly mixed. I always shake and roll powders containers before adding into the hopper. Does it help, I have no idea. But I do it.

There is deviation is all powders dispensed. Some loads are more subjected to small changes than others.

Humidity may play a small part, but I don't thing the scales we have can detect the change is such small samples.

The only true way to get a consistent accurate dispense is by weighing the charges and adjusting as required. Then your at the mercy of the scales you use. ±0.1, ±0.02, ±0.01 etc...
 
Pressure for liquids is rho g h, Take a look at the picture.


https://www.dawsoncollege.qc.ca/pub...24b7df11fb7/programs/smse/biomed/10_gases.pdf

So rho is density, g is gravity, and h is the height of the column.

I am of the opinion this also applies to gunpowder in my powder measure, that is as I charge cases, the column drops, and so does the pressure on the bottom. And that pressure is what determines the packing of powder in the rotor cavity. Therefore as column height changes, so should the charge weight.

So given that powder measures depend on gravity to feed powder into the rotor cavity, how does powder measure make or type make the throw more consistent, given that the powder column height varies?

My old Bonanza powder measure has a very tall tube and I have noticed differences in charge weights as the powder column drops. I have also noticed that many powder measures have shorter tubes, such as the Lyman in the picture. I think Lyman and others have installed a shorter powder tube in their measures because of all the complaints they would get about their powder measures not throwing accurately if they had a taller powder tube.

Bonanzapowdermeasure.jpg
 
I have not twiddled the MR Dials on the powder measures of my Dillons in some time. Drops are in the usual +/- .1 gr range, without drift over the last several months since I arrived at the current powder charge, many hundreds of .45, few thousand 9mm.

I leave powder in the measure and keep it between approximately 1/3 and 3/4 full.

Sorry, I do not load large amounts of ammo with the Uniflo or Redding rotary measures to have a handle on drift.
 
If we look at a VMD (Volume Measure Density) powder dispenser I guess we should look at the variables, the things that can or may change and what effects those changes. I have several means of measuring a powder charge at my disposal. I guess the RCBS Uniflow is as good as any for an explanation. The dispenser has a cylinder, an adjustable cylinder and the cylinder has a volume. The cylinder volume set by the user. When we "throw" a powder charge we refer to it as metering and as was mentioned and as we all know some powders "meter" better than others. Once we adjust the volume of our powder throw our main concern is not just the weight of the charge we throw but how well the device repeats. Repeatability is the big deal here right?

VMD Explanation
The Volume Measured Density (VMD) of a powder is the volume in cc's (cubic centimeter) that one grain of powder occupies. This can be used to calculate the dipper, disk cavity or powder measure setting required to obtain a desired weight of powder.

The charge weight in grains * VMD = Charge Volume in Cubic Centimeters

According to the nice people at Lee (they are big on this volume thing) the VMD for IMR 4895 is 0.0728 so if I want to throw a 40 grain charge I need a volume of: 40.0 * 0.0728 = 2.912 cc. While this looks good and simple we run into problems.I can set the volume of my cylinder to get the correct charge weight but getting repeatability can be a problem. My dispenser has a hopper full of powder, a column of powder. That column of powder has a weight pushing down and with each cycle of a handle the weight of the column pushes powder down into my cylinder's set volume. Unfortunately with each powder throw the weight of the column is reduced. Enter the ever popular baffle. The idea of using a powder baffle is to keep the weight of the powder pushing down a constant. Even with this improvement it comes down to, as was mentioned, some powders meter better than others. Spirical and Ball powders tend to meter better than stick powders. Everyone is familiar with the "crunchy" sounds powders like IMR 4064 or IMR 4895 make as the powder measure cuts those sticks of powder. The volume of the cylinder isn't going to change but how much powder we get in it can. My observations here are that better machined powder throws like THE HARRELL POWDER MEASURE tend to do a better job of repeatability than those made of more plastic than machined steel. They also carry a hefty price tag to match their reputation for repeatability.

Finally there is the powder itself. I can't say I read it on the Internet so it is fact but in the link I used earlier for VMD they also mention:
It is very important that you repeat this process with any new container of the same powder because the powder companies allow themselves a 16% tolerance between batches. This can result in over charging if you work from the same setting and the next container of powder you get is more dense.

So while the volume of the cylinder is not going to change, not enough to matter, there are plenty of other variables acting on the measurement process, some we can control for example the use of a baffle and some more difficult to control. The question becomes will any of the variables have enough effect on the repeatability of our process to matter. Using a good VMD dispenser I doubt it if we just follow good hand loading practices.

In the time it took me to write this about 4 more good post happened. Darn, I type slow.

Rule 3:
What about altitude, relative humidity and of course temperature?

Absolutely they will have an effect, the question is will the effect be enough to come in light of the intended application? I doubt it as long as the temperature and humidity are in reasonable limits. I define that as a creature comfort zone.

Just My Take....
Ron
 
Dillon he has seen drifting of charge drops of .2+ gr.

My experience as well. Now I continually check about every 5 charges or so for the first 75-100 rounds. When I started to tell a fellow Dillon user about what I had found he immediately replied ".2 grains" which was exactly how much mine had drifted.

I have used a RCBS Uniflow for everything I've loaded for the last 15 years or so. The only problem I had with "drift" was before I learned to settle the powder before I started dropping charges. The charge would get heavier for many drops, until the powder in the reservoir got settled from the slight tap and consistent "fall." By settling the powder by tapping lightly with my fingers, I'll get consistent drops for the entire volume of the reservoir. After refilling, I resettle and make a few drops and it's right back on, +/- .1 gr.

I agree with this, although it is quite often stated that the powder column somehow affects the weight of the charge in the drum. The bulk density of granular materials is controlled by the packing arrangement of the grains. The grains move into tighter , more dense packing arrangements by vibration, not pressure. Unless, of course, the pressure is great enough to compress or deform the individual grains. Pressures that great do not occur in a powder reservoir that is less than a foot deep. I think that most powders, like ball and extruded, behave like granular materials. I'm not so sure about flake powders.

A couple of examples are your partially filled box of Cheerios that have settled during shipping due to vibrations and why a vibratory roller is used to compact granular (i.e. sandy) soils.

Laphroaig
 
Which is the reason that professional bakers WEIGH flour and do not rely on volume. A perfectly MEASURED 1 cup of flour will not always weigh the same amount day in day out. It "drifts" based on density , humidity and temperature.

In reloading we generally do not need to weigh past 1/10 of a grain difference.
 
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