Time for more gun?

[ks_shooter]

I am considering retiring my .243 from Whitetail hunting in favor of something with a little more punch. I lost a nice buck last week. He was quartering towards me (showing his left shoulder)at about 75 yards, so I didn't have the desireable broadside shot to take advantage of. Since it was almost dark and this buck was very cautious and wasn't show any signs of changing his position for a while, I decided to take the shot that presented itself. I decided to aim just inside his left shoulder, about half way up his chest. I figured this would hit at least his right-side lung. I had the heart if the shot was low and the spine if the shot was high. Left or right shoulder if the shot was wide.

I broke a clean shot and he jumped and kicked and turned to run into a milo field that he was next to. I could hear him knocking down the milo for a few seconds and then it got quiet. I figured he was down. I gave him a few minutes to bleed out and then I went to find him.

To make a long story short, I never found him. I tracked him through the mud in the milo field for about 50 yards to a grassy waterway. At this point I couldn't see his tracks anymore. I never found any blood. I didn't necessarily expect the bullet to exit with the angle of the shot I took, though. After searching the area for several hours (with flashlights that evening and then again in the morning) I never saw any more sign of him.

I feel like I placed a killing shot on him. I suppose it's possible that the bullet found a path through his chest that only wounded him, but I am confident that he was hit. In my experience from other hunts, unwounded deer nearby to the deer that is shot usually freeze. They are startled by the noise, but are not in pain, and are not sure which way to run. The buck I shot immediately took off like a bat out of hell.

My question now is this: Did I just get unlucky or was this a poor shot choice for the .243 caliber rifle I was using? I am seriously considering re-barreling to a larger caliber (maybe 7mm-08) before next season, given the experience I had this year.

I would like a caliber that performs similar to a 270 or 30-06 from a short-action. The 7mm-08 is close, but a little shy. The next step up from this, though, the 270 or 7mm Short Magnums seem like overkill. The .308 is a possibility but I don't like its rainbow trajectory. Great for known-distance target shooting, or if you use a range-finder, but it drops pretty fast compared to other calibers with similar energy. The Hornady 7mm-08 Light Magnum is just about perfect, but I don't like being stuck with only one choice of load. Any suggestions? Thanks.

 

[Delmar]

ks-I don't think a 270 or an 06 is gonna kill a whitetail at 75 yards any 'deader' than your 243 Winchester. I think you just had a spot of poor luck. You did not mention what bullet was used-hopefully, you're using something along the lines of a 100 grain softpoint of some type.

The only time I ever saw a 243 fail to anchor a white tail was a fella who used to be on my deer lease-he shot 3 deer in one morning and they all took off and were not found. It was discovered that he was using FMJ's-don't know where Gary picked them up, but he was into 'cheap' in a very big way. Until that time, I did not know anyone made 243 ammo in that configuration.

If, however you are interested in upgunning your rifle, the 260 Rem, 7MM-08 and 7MM Mauser all have the same case head size and should meet your criteria, with a good handloaded 7 Mauser being the flattest. The 308 is not so bad in the trajectory department at all. In fact, the 150 grain 308 if handloaded as I do, or the light magnum as sold by Hornady shoots a bit flatter than a standard 30-06. My 308 has been feeding me well for over 20 years, and I have taken deer from 30 to over 300 yards with it.

 

[ks_shooter]

Delmar,

Thanks for the reply. I was using Winchester Power Point 100 gr. Soft Point cartridges. These are more accurate in my rifle than the Remington CoreLok's. I handload for fun shooting, but I have always used factory ammo for hunting. I don't like to load my handloads too hot, since you can only indirectly determine the operating pressure of a load.

I hear what you are saying about the .243. That is what I have always thought, too. I do a fair amount of target shooting, just for fun, and that is why I selected the .243 initially. Not too punishing for plinking, and "enough" for whitetail. After having this buck soak one up and keep or truck'n I am starting to question whether I need a little more "insurance".

I do less target shooting with my bolt gun since I bought an AR-15 and took up Highpower competition. I was thinking that I could tolerate a stouter cartridge since I won't be using it as much for fun shooting. I have shot my Father-In-Law's 30-06 several times, and after a box of shells I have had all of it I want, and I will start to flinch if I keep shooting. (It doesn't help that his rifle is an old sporterized 1917 Enfield with a hard plastic end cap on the butt stock).

 

[Delmar]

Well, KS-it sounds to me like you have your high power rifle in your AR, and the 243 might be something to use for when you are bucking wind-maybe another rifle is in your future? It's a shame to give up all of the reloading knowledge and experience you have with the 243

If that Win 100 grain softpoint does anything like what the 150 grain 308 will do, you certainly have enough gun and bullet for bambi! I bought a box of the winchester silver box in 308, tried them at the range and found they would go inside of an inch at 100-more than good enough. Shot a doe in the head at about 90 yards because she was standing behind a low salt cedar, and my hunting buddy just about got sick for all of the damage it did. Just about took the whole off side of her face off!

I think your idea of upgunning might have an advantage at unknown distances, and barring the jump to a magnum which would cost more to convert your rifle than buying a new one, your idea does have merit.

 

[ks_shooter]

I shoot a Savage, so the barrel swap is a cake walk. I can order a factory barrel in 7mm-08 for about $135 (or splurge on a Douglas for about $250 ). Add a headspace gauge and a barrel nut wrench for another $50 and it's a done deal. I can still shoot the .243 if I want to, since it only takes about 10 minutes to change barrels. Not sure about the Return-to-Zero when swapping barrels, though. If I used witness marks on the receiver and barrels and applied consistent torque on the barrel nut it would probably be darn close.

 

[Delmar]

Cheater

I know there are those who thumb their nose at Savage because of the locking collar, but what a great idea. Did not know you had a Savage (accu-trigger?). The only thing about a Savage that ever turned me off was the bolt and its many parts-which is okay, and their stocks and triggers. Savage has come a long way for the economy shooter, and their barrel setup makes great sense.

In your particular case, I'd spring for the new barrel and headspace gauges in 243 and whatever caliber you decide upon, and make it go!

 

[ks_shooter]

Delmar,

I have had this rifle for about 4 years. It is pre-accutrigger. I did put a Sharpshooter Supply trigger in it and that has worked very well. I would swap it for an Accutrigger (for added safety) if it would fit my receiver, but no such luck . You don't suppose Savage did that one on purpose, do you?

I also put this rifle in a Bell and Carlson Duramaxx stock. Nice looking gray-blue with black spider-webbing. I had to operate on the stock with my Dremel to make accommodations for the detachable magazine, but it turned out really nice.

I believe that the the .243, 7mm-08 and .308 all use the same headspace gauge, so that is a plus. I won't have to swap bolt-heads either. Although that is easy too (and cheap) on my "cheater"

I ran across information on the E.R. Shaw website that indicates that they now sell replacement barrels for Savages. Right around the same cost as the factory barrel, $135. They might be a little better than the factory barrels, since barrels are their main product. My factory tube has always been accurate, but it has also always been a pain in the butt to clean.

I had it hand-lapped by McGowen's, and then tried the Tubb Final Finish kit on it. It is better, but still collects a lot more copper than my AR-15 Stainless Steel Match barrel. Accuracy goes South after about 20 shots, and good luck pushing a brass bore brush through it! Near as I can guess the reamer must have had a burr on it when they drilled the bore. There are transverse tooling marks that look like a fine file in bore.

 

[Delmar]

KS, let me know how you come out on this one if you decide to swap barrels. I have a lot of time on my hands these days, other than work, and I would like to build up a nice shooter. What has stopped me is what you have to go thru to change barrels in the other brands. The Savage makes it easy.


I know what you mean about rough barrels-I have 2 M700 Rem VS, both in 308 win. The new one is pretty easy to clean-the old one has a bore which is rough, and chews up brushes at every cleaning. The only reason I have not changed it is because is shoots nearly into one hole with the loads it likes.

 

[dakotasin]

i'm not a big fan of the 243 for big game hunting.... i know many folks have had good luck w/ 'em, but up here, the only deer that has ever been lost by those i hunt w/ was lost after what seemed to be an excellent shot w/ a 243.

i'm a huge fan of 7mm's, and if it were me, i'd divest myself of the 243 in a hurry in favor of the 7-08.

i have a 300 wsm that i've been working w/ for a couple of years, and i think it is a great cartridge. based on my experiences w/ the 300 wsm, i'd heartily reccomend a 7 wsm... 7mm's have great bc's and sd's, leading to flat trajectories, and serious penetrations. i've yet to recover any bullet shot from one of my 7mm's, and consider the 7mm bullet the ultimate for deer hunting. i'd advocate the switch to the 7 wsm as a first choice (overkill??? no such thing. he's dead, or he's not), and the 7-08 as a runner-up.

 

[Art Eatman]

IMO, the .243 is great for smaller deer, unless you're absolutely sure of a neck shot or heart shot. "Smaller", to me, is deer field-dressing at some 120 pounds or less; preferably a bit less...

I've loaded for a 7mm08 and for a .308 as well as the .243 and the '06. All my loading-book data is in reasonable agreement that for 22- and 24-inch barrels, the 7mm08 launches a 140-grain bullet at some 2,800 to 2,900 ft/sec, as does the .308 with a 150-grain bullet. Ten grains of bullet isn't enough to care about. Bambi won't care, either.

Back to the story: If you were zeroed at 200 yards, at 75 yards your bullet is almost 2" above line of sight. Could have been that your hit was a bit high. Any pull-off to one side or the other, and Dead Close By just didn't happen. Could have hit the other side of center, and then been into the off shoulder...Not the caliber or bullet weight that caused the problem.

I had a similar shot one time. About 75 yards or less, quartering, late afternoon. Busted him good with an '06. Deer fell down as if dead. I slung my rifle and walked over to gut him. Up he jumps, and away he goes! Three-legged. I'd broken the right foreleg. (Sure made a helluva Whop! at impact.) I did a Mr. Superspeed at getting aimed at him to shoot him for real, and got a 4X setting sun through the scope...He was seen later, crippling around.

FWIW,

Art

 

[Delmar]

dakotasin-do you have to go up to a 7 Mag for white tail?
I've used 150/165 grain 308's and 130/140 grain 270 Winchester and have yet to recover a bullet, and its easy to tell by the exit wound that I'm getting good expansion. My 270 is my long distance getter, and I don't see a huge advantage in trajectory.

KS seems to be using a short action-how hard is it to modify a Savage for one of the WSM's, bolt face and magazine box? I have zero experience with the Savage line, but I see the WSM as being a good alternative to a belted mag if that kind of power is necessary. Seems to launch em pretty flat, and unlike a belted case, less feeding worries.

I thought about the 284 Winchester too-don't have to modify the bolt face and they seem to hold about as much powder as a 30-06. Depending on the magazine length, you may not be able to launch the heavy weight bullets as fast, but there are some really nice bullets out there these days which seem to perform well.

 

[Delmar]

Art-did you ever find the 3 legger? I did have an issue a long while back with a small doe-she went about 100 pounds. Blew the spine out at the base of the neck with a hot loaded 270/130 grain and she went down. I did like you and slung my rifle as I walked towards her. Darned if she didn't try to get away on her two front legs. I was very surprised, and put another one high in the chest and down she went again. Rolled her over and was getting my knife out when she started kicking again, so I shot her in the head with a 45. She still wasn't done, so I finished her with a knife!

What is it about Texas white tails???? I think she hollered "remember the Alamo" as I loaded her into the freezer

 

[ks_shooter]

dakotasin,

You are of course correct, dead is dead I suppose you could say that my comment about overkill had more to do with my shoulder than the deer.

 

[Matt G]

I was using Winchester Power Point 100 gr.

Well, good for you for using enough bullet. I run across people who like the lighter weight bullets for the .243s. IMHO, only the 100 gr bullet has enough weight and has good sectional density for deer. I just got a .243 and am 'sperimenting with which loads it likes (it loves the Sierra spitzers). I want to try it with the Partition bullets.

I've hunted for years with the .257 Rbts and have a lot of confidence in it as a deer killer, and there's just not a whole heckuva lot of difference between a 100 gr Roberts load and a 100 gr .243 load.

If you've lost your confidence in the .243, then it's time to move up. I feel that you should hunt with the rifle that you have the most confidence in. But if you're still confident in it and are just asking if it's foolish to be, I would have to say "nope, the .243 is a fine deer killer."

 

[dakotasin]

dakotasin-do you have to go up to a 7 Mag for white tail?
I've used 150/165 grain 308's

no, of course not, but i really enjoy my 7 mags, so i hunt w/ them on occasion. i've also used 150's and 165's in the 308, 180's in the 300 wsm, 100's, 115's, 117's and 120's in the 25-06, 225's in the 338, 90's and 100's in the 243, 150's and 180's in the 30-06, and 139's, 150's, 160's and 162's in the 7 mag (all these combinations on whitetail and mule deer)...

of all those combinations that i've worked w/, plus the additional combinations of hunting partners and such, the best cartridge and bullet combinations that i've found are 162's in the 7 rem mag and 180's in the 300 wsm (though this cartridge has only killed 4 deer and 3 antelopes for me to date, so what i would consider to be 'complete' data for my uses, this one is incomplete, and in fact, i had an antelope run 10 yards or so this year - first time anything ran w/ that cartridge, but other than that one, everything else looks pretty good).

 

[Art Eatman]

Delmar: No, I didn't see the buck again, but one of the other guys did, a few days later. I asked why he didn't go on and shoot it and end its misery? He was worried somebody would make him put a tag on it! I carefully kept a zipped lip...

I think I hit the leg bone about halfway above the "elbow", from where it appeared to dangle. Helluva loud crack at impact.

That was the end of the factory Weatherby trigger; I put a Canjar on it and never pulled low again. I'd not been able to adjust the factory trigger worth a hoot; I should have done the replacement long before...

4X sunshine is Not Fun, though...

Art

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

ks shooter,I hit a big doe with my 06 the opening weekend,good lung hit tho a tad high and still had a 200 yard trail before I found her.These Ks deer are kinda big so maybe a larger bullet/caliber would be a good idea.I have always felt that the 243 was a minimum caliber for deer but that's just MHO.Sorry to hear that you lost your buck.

 

[Lonestar.45]

The .243 is a great whitetail cartridge, however, I have to say, the hunters I know that shoot it have all lost deer at one time or another. Was it the cartridge or the hunter? I don't know. But I know I've never lost a deer with my .270, and dad's never lost one with his 30.06, and together we've shot over 50 probably.

That said, if you're intent on rebarrelling, I think you'd be doing yourself a favor by going to the .308. No, it doesn't shoot quite as flat as your .243 or some of the other rounds, but if you sight it in dead on at 150 yds or so, you can hold your crosshairs in the vitals and it will hit out to 250 with no holdover. If you practice a little, you'll know exactly where it hits, and at what range, and you won't have any problems. There's a reason the military snipers use the .308 so much, it works.

If you don't like the .308, try the .260 Remington, and let me know how it does. Looking at the ballistics, this seems to be a very interesting cartridge. The 140gr bullet would have much more energy than your .243. Good luck.

 

[ks_shooter]

Years ago when I spent more time shooting a thinking about handguns I studied terminal ballistics quite a bit. Rifle ballistics are more complicated because of the hydrostatic shock factor that is generally not present with relatively low velocity pistol bullets.

With rifle bullets and deer I have come to a few conclusions:

With a uncomplicated broadside shot on a deer, I don't think that the caliber or energy is that important. A .243 or a .338 mag is going to kill a deer about the same. You are looking at a target that isn't very dense. The muscle mass on the side ribcage of a deer is minimal. The ribs are small and pliable and there is a good chance that the bullet will pass between them. If the bullet hits a rib it is not likely to deform signficantly. The lungs are very lightly constucted and provide almost no resistance to the bullet. In the end it's like shooting a big piece of foam, there isn't much for the energy of the bullet to work on. You are basically going to get a caliber sized hole. If this succeeds in deflating the lungs, the animal should collapse within a short distance and expire. If the bullet misses one or both lungs and doesn't encounter any heavy bone, a larger caliber and more energy will not help much.

If the bullet encounters something with more mass, like heavy bone or the heart, then the added energy of a more powerful round will have a better effect. The hydrostatic shock evident when a jug of water is shot will be absorbed by the target. This type of wound can produce the dramatic anchoring kills that we all want. A shot into the muscles or spine in the neck or into the shoulder can take advantage of the extra energy in a more powerful caliber.

If heavy bone is encountered and the bullet isn't up to the task of reaching the vitals the animal may only be wounded or crippled.

I think the .243 is probably adequate for broadside shots on deer. But the animal will probably travel a ways if the heart is missed. (I don't really consider a non-shoulder broadside shot to be an anchoring shot in any reasonable caliber.) A shoulder or neck shot (which can be a good anchoring shot) with a .243 could be a problem. A shoulder shot might not reach vitals and may not prevent the wounded deer from running if the amount of damage isn't enough. A more powerful caliber could make the difference is this case. A neck shot that hits the spine will drop the deer immediately, of course. If the neck shot misses the spine and the large arteries, the impact of a less powerful caliber may not cause enough damage bring it down quickly. The hydrostatic shock provided by a powerful enough caliber can actually cause a nervous system overload that can cause the deer to lose consciousness even if the initial wound isn't fatal. This gives the advantage to the larger caliber in this situation.

There, I think that I have succeeded in convincing myself that I need more gun now

 

[mohican]

if I could deer with centerfire rifles in Ohio

I can't offer any advise based on actually hunting deer with a .243. Ohio allows bows, crossbows, shotguns with slugs, muzzleloaders .38 & up and handguns .357 mag and up (straight walled cartridges only.

I can remember my tales from childhood from my uncle and brother in law going to PA to hunt deer, the general consensus then was that the 243 was on the small side for deer. All this is conjecture on my part.

I do think someone hit the nail on the head about that if you're not confident using it, get something else. The 243 might be a little light for raking shots.

If the deer was quartering toward you at 75 yards, a 100 grain softpoint might have been to soft if you hit him on the shoulder. No matter what gun I'm hunting with, I like to have a bullet that I know can take a raking shot or break shoulderblades in need be

 

[12-34hom]

Luck had nothing to do with what happened. Its not the gun or caliber, .243 is excellent deer cartridge.

Ks shooter stated, it was almost dark when he took the shot = poor judgment.

What type of sights were being utilized? Scope or Iron sights? If scope was used - what type & reticle - what range was it sighted in for? i would bet not for the range at which this shot was taken. That would account for poor bullet placement if you hit what you were shooting at.

You took a shot that shouldn't have been taken,[imho] i don't know your abilities as a hunter or a rifleman. From what you described, you went beyond your capabilities and took an "iffy" shot.

Most hunters i know, myself included are guilty of doing something similar. If you learn something in that process and do your best not to let it happen on future hunting trips, then your ahead of the game. If not, you're just another slob hunter who has no respect for himself or the game you pursuit. Your decision.

12-34hom.

 

[Delmar]

KS-don't know your parameters for ammo and such, but with a short action rifle upgrade, I think you are lookin for a 7MM08, 7MM Mauser or a 308. All three will do the job. The 7-08 might shoot a bit flatter, but the 308 is going to be cheaper and more widely available for ammo as a general rule.

 

[ks_shooter]

12-34hom,

I won't argue that my opportunity was ideal. I would certainly have preferred to have shot him with several hours of daylight left. Unfortunately, bucks around here rarely accommodate this wish. I could easily see the buck with my naked eye, so aiming wasn't any issue. The only problem would be finding him if he ran, with the sunlight soon to fade. I was prepared to track him after dark if need be. It was very muddy in the area I was in, which would make tracking him easier. If he had fallen within 50 yards of where I shot him, I would have been dressing him out that night.

As for my rifle, I was using a scope at 4x magnification. Sighted in to give me a +/- 2" point blank range to 250 yards. At 75 yards I would figure it to be about around 1.5" high. I aimed with this in mind. As I stated in my original post I felt I had sufficient vital targets to allow for several inches of POI error in any direction.

I had confidence (at the time) that a .243 could anchor this deer at this relatively close range with a shot into the chest. I have avoided taking shoulder shots with the .243, fearing that it wouldn't penetrate well enough to hit vitals, and that deer can run along ways on three legs.

I shoot a lot. I am confident that I placed my bullet within a few inches of were I intended. My question is whether my choice of shot placement was proper considering the angle I had on the target and the caliber I was using.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

It does sound like you didn't get the penetration out of the .243, which is, of course it's weakness. I would suggest, if you want a bit more penetration but not a lot more recoil, definitely try the .260 Remington. I've been using a .260 and a 6.5x55 for a couple of years now, and have been very pleased with the round. The sectional density of the 140 gr 6.5 mm bullet should give the penetration of a .308 -- or so the calculations say.

If you want a little flatter trajectory and you handload, try the .260 Remington Improved. I just lost a casual contest with a guy shooting the .260 Improved; he just had much less wind drift and holdover (always my weak point).

 

[Matt G]

Ks shooter stated, it was almost dark when he took the shot = poor judgment.

Hm.
Sounds like you're missing ks_shooter's point. He felt that he was shooting a caliber capable of reaching the far side of the deer, and it [maybe] did not. His question is whether the cartridge is thus inadequate.

There is a certain power to be had from being able to reach all the way through a deer from the off side. Agreed that it's not the ideal way to do it, but some loads and calibers give you that option. While a .243/6mm can do it with the right load on most deers, it can't be expected to do it as reliably as, say, a 180g .30-'06 load. Certainly the load that he was using should penetrate as well or better (depending on weight retention) than the 100g .257 Sierra Spitzer that I drove all the way though a buck from 5o'clock to 12'oclock, breaking and stopping in the sternum; his had a better sectional density.

Here's the thing-- it's hunting. It's not gathering. Sometimes there's a variable that can't be accounted for. It's a shame, and I think that ks_shooter is trying to reduce the variables. But I don't know that he blew it, just on the basis that the deer got away. Lord, his shot may have been great,. and the deer hemmoraged internally while managing to get just out of his scope of search without leaving a drop of blood in bad tracking terrain. Fact is, we don't know how his shot did.