Time for more gun?

[ks_shooter]

To make this discusion a little less abstract, I clipped a picture that shows a close approximation of the shot presentation that I had on this buck. I marked the spot where I intended the bullet to strike with a red dot. Given that I was using a 100 gr. Soft Point .243, is this a good choice for shot placement? If not, what would be better? As I stated before, I was not sure that a shoulder shot at this angle would reach vital internal organs.

 

[12-34hom]

Ks shooter , Thanks for your clarification & the pic you posted. I have had to put several down in the line of duty after they tangle with an auto, they are tough critters.

Matt G, I can't count the times I've read about a hunter "needing more gun" on these gun boards instead of being proficient with the equipment he has after an episode like this one.

At 100 yards a .243 with a 100 grain Nosler Partition has almost 2000 FPE. The factory hunting bullets that are utilized are superb so penetration is not an issue. [Ks shooter stated that he uses factory loads.]

From what i read, it's a shot I would not have taken, but since i don't and have not hunted deer... you're mileage may vary.

12-34hom.

 

[dakotasin]

i think you just found out where the 243 comes up short on big game... that is kind of a tough shot to get real good penetration w/ the 243 on, especially for non-premium bullets. the only way i'd take this shot w/ a 243 was if i was shooting barnes x, xlc, xxx, or the like. the factory junk you were shooting wasn't up to the task. since the deer wasn't recovered, i can only guess, but i'd guess you did not get adequate penetration to kill this deer because of bullet failure.

a bigger, heavier bullet would've done better, a premium 243 bullet would've done better. when you are hunting big game w/ light guns, ya gotta be especially picky about presentation and bullet placement.

where i would put the bullet at... you know, i don't like that presentation at all. i would've waited for either a perfectly head-on shot and put the x-hairs just below the throat patch, or if he would've turned, taken a broadside (or at least not that severe of an angle) shot. i don't like that presentation because you don't have a good enough angle for the neck shot, and any body shot is likely going to exit his hind end, making the gutting process an absolute mess, and likely cost you a good deal of hind quarter and/or backstrap, maybe even tenderloin meat.

the shoulder shot, at this angle would likley have resulted in a downed deer. had you held on the point of his shoulder (assuming you were shooting enough bullet and gun, and imo you weren't). the bullet would have broken the shoulder and destroyed one lung, and probably would have stopped in the animal. however.... like i said, i don't like this presentation, and i would've waited another minute or two on it.

 

[Matt G]

That's not a bad presentation at all, IMHO. I've shot a few deer with it, and been delighted with the outcome. What I like about it is that there's so much margin for error. Almost any hit is a deer-dropping hit. Penetration isn't really much of an issue-- all the good stuff is just a few inches in, so long as you make it past the ribcage. (Bullets which explode on ribcages will not be entertained here!)

High shot rakes the spine. Left or right takes out a shoulder and perhaps a haunch. Low hits the heart and more lung.

Funny thing-- the dead center shot there is almost the only spot where something could go slightly wrong. By threading the needle, it's possible to miss the great vessels, most of the lungs, and the spinal process, with the bullet exiting behind the right shoulder. Miss ribs and get only minor expansion, and there's not much catastrophic damage. If the hide was stretched out in mid-stride as the bullet passed through, it could close over the exit and leave no blood trail. Oh, the deer's going to die-- no mistaking that-- but it may take a minute or two. This may just be one of those cases of damn bad luck, where terrain and a chance in a million caused a well-shot deer to elude the hunter before being picked up.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Ah,makes more sense now.Yea,at that angle I can see where a 243 might not do what you needed.I hit an Oklahoma deer at that angle with the 06 and it ran quite a ways before it died.It was only an 85#er so one of our bigger Ks bucks would probably go further.

 

[Delmar]

Given that shot, with no other choice-I call that a head shot to the left side of the eye.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Two possibilites

BTDT on both possibilities!

One:, shot went to the left a tad, bullet passed between the right shoulder and chest cavity. I did that once with a .35reminton. Fortunatey I did connect with the humerous (leg bone)beaking it, and was able to kill the deer with a second shot. I've also made that shot and had deer run off and "get lost".

TWO: Possible with .243 and lighter rounds, though I had it happen with .35Rem also.
You hit the left shoulder (to the right of your dot on the picture) and bullet blew up on the shoulder bone. I had this happen this year with a doe I shot at the same angle, with a Rem 150gr Cor-lockt over 35.0gr of RL-15 for a chrono'd 2,400fps. Range was 27yds, measured. The exploding shoulder bone left a 2" x 4" wound next to the entry wound. Fortunately, the bullet deflected inward, lodging in the stomach after it took out lungs and liver. Deer ran 50yds and dropped.

My guess from 20+ years checking 100's of deer killed with various calibers, bullets, is that you either pulled the shot to the left and got a poor hit, or, the 100gr Power Pt. failed (I've seen that too!) and didn't give you a body penetrating shot. If the bullet blew up on the shoulder and deflected outward, the deer ran off on 3 legs, which they can do rather well!


I don't think it was the .243. Try using the 100gr Hornady Sft.Pt. Interlok or the Nosler 100gr Part. These are available in factory loadings too. My brother and nephew use the Hornady 100gr and have never lost a deer, nor required more than one shot. Most have been large bodied Montana mule deer or whitetails that have run over 200lbs. The 100gr Sierra's do real well too. I'm leery of the Winchester PowerPts after I nearly lost a deer in '81 shot with a 150gr from .30/06 at 3,000fps. Deer was well hit at range of 29yds. Bullet blew up and didn't penetrate.

(See, not just the .243 will "loose" deer with bullet blow-ups)

I've unexplicably lost deer with much heavier cartridges, and kill most of mine with .22 c.f.'s.

Thats why it's called "HUNTING", and not just "killing deer".

As long as the deer have a "say", its never a "done deal" till the deer is gutted!

I had a coworker that had a 180lb 10pt buck "come to life" in the back of his pickup 45mins later in town, at the court-house while he was showing the deer to some of the deputies. That .40cal 180gr SXT made a terrible hole in his pickup after penetrating that deer's neck! He had "neck-shot" the deer with an 87gr HP from a .25/06, and had a gaping hole in deer's neck. Only thing is, not much blood, and no bone hit! At least not until the pistol shot! Deer had been KO'd by the near head shot, but not killed. Darn near got out of that truck and got away! Like I said, it ain't a "done deal" till they're really dead!

 

[Art Eatman]

At 75 yards, I'd have expected that a hit in the red dot would be pretty close to DRT.

However, assuming any sort of a rest, at 75 yards I'd have gone for the white patch. My little .243 carbine has collected over a dozen, with that as a target. Maybe more. I really don't recall all that many body shots...

Heck, I've probably taken more body shots when using my '06, but generally the shots have been a good bit more than 75 yards.

Art

 

[ks_shooter]

I appreciate all of the comments.

Are the Winchester Power Point 100 gr. bullets durable enough for sub-100 yard shots on a shoulder? I am thinking of trying either the Hornady 100 gr. Intelock (maybe the Light Magnum?) or the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra (a bonded core bullet). I would select a Barnes X if I could find one in a factory load. I have a secondary season come January 1st and I won't be changing caliber before then.

I didn't feel that my hold in this case was steady enough for a high neck shot. I figure that would require shooting within a 3" circle to be fatal. As it was, I was sitting on an old log with my knees too low to be useful. I ended up shooting sort of a "sitting off-hand" if that makes sense. With this hold I figured I could hit a 4" circle reliably at that distance. On the ground with my knees up, using a sling, I could probably shoot into 2". Prone would take that to about 1".

I try not to over-estimate my shooting ability when hunting. I would be lying if I said that I was completely calm. Hell, the day I can prepare to shoot a deer without getting excited is the day I'll quit doing it.

 

[Delmar]

I dunno if the Winchester PP's are durable enough for a shoulder shot in 243. The one head shot I got with a 150 grain 308 showed it opening pretty darned quickly-the skull not being constructed so densely as a shoulder, I'd want to try it out on something approximating it.

I had been told that Nosler Ballistic tips opened way too fast for deer hunting, and that might be true in those high speed magnums, but for a 308, I dumped enough powder to do about 2900 fps out of a 26 inch barrel and they did fine for years. Was using them because all those gun rags, supposedly in the know, were all talking about how accurate they are. Come to find out, I can get the Hornady BTSP interlock for half the price of the Nosler and can keep 5 shots inside a quarter all day long-and when I have had the practice, can keep them inside a dime at 100. No worse than what I had with the BT's.

What made me look at other brands was after I hit a good sized Texas doe in the shoulder and I swear to you that girl fell down and kicked a few times, then got right back up. Put the second shot at the base of the neck and she was still.

The first bullet hit the shoulder and ricochetted off! My buddy and I looked at it, looked at each other and shook our heads. It looked as if I had shot a mossy rock-a dime sized cutout of fur and an intact shoulder.

Just goes to show you that bullets sometimes do strange things for no particular reason. I loaded up some 150 grain partitions for my 270-not all that hot, but at the lower end of the load range. I wanted them for the feral hogs. Spotted a deer and took her. Sure am glad I did not go max on the powder charge-her insides were demolished from a classic hit behind the shoulder. I haven't seen that much damage since I shot a buck at 20 yards, 12 gauge slug.

 

[dakotasin]

not a 243 fan, and i don't shoot factory ammo, but i am almost positive you can get partitions in factory loads (federal premium, probably).

i use mostly hornady interlock btsp's for my hunting, and what isn't hornady is sierra gamekings (handloads). check for a light magnum or custom loading by hornady if you want to try these. i'm thinking a 100 or so grain in their 'custom' line is about what you're looking for. the light magnums might be a little too hot (you'd need more time for testing and evaluation to be sure), but the customs are good, solid loads.

regardless of what you buy, please verify/re-zero the gun even if your new loads shoot the same weight bullet.

as for ballistic tips... i think they may work rather well in the larger guns, but in the smaller guns (25 cal and under), their performance has been, well, not as desired.

good luck on your hunt! btw... i'll be heading out on jan 1 also. will be looking for 1 whitetail doe, and 1 mule doe. should be fun!

 

[Lonestar.45]

After checking out the illustration, and going back and reading your original post it's making more sense to me.

" At this point I couldn't see his tracks anymore. I never found any blood. I didn't necessarily expect the bullet to exit with the angle of the shot I took, though."

No blood trail = bad penetration. It was the angle of the shot that did you in, along with the caliber. That's not a great angle to be shooting with a .243. You really really want a blood trail if they don't go down, otherwise you're in for a heartache. If you're going to take shots like that, you really will want to get a heavier caliber/bullet. If a larger caliber doesn't drop a deer at that distance/angle, then hopefully at the very least it would leave you a good blood trail to follow.

I don't think I'd give up on the .243, it is a fine deer caliber, if used within it's limitations. I think the shot you took was outside it's limitations is all. A broadside shot, and that deer would have been down. A quartering away shot, and it would have been down. Don't beat yourself up over it, just live and learn.

 

[Matt G]

No blood trail = bad penetration.

Not necessarily.

I've had at least three deer with good penetration leave no blood trail. On one, a buck I shot at long range, I was actually able to find his tracks where he had stood in the plowed winter wheat field when he was hit and began to lunge out of the field. NO BLOOD! I was sure that, because I found no fan of blood on the ground, I must have missed him. When I finally found him the shot had gone through and through, but the exit hole was fairly small (say about .40 cal, not bad expansion from a .25 cal, and the skin had stretched over the wound in mid-stride to cover over the wound.

I've had a couple of others where I walked the area carefully, and found nary a drop, though I did find the dead deer with a through-and-through hole.

 

[Cpt. Jack]

KS Shooter....I almost never post but this is an exception. I know what you are feeling after losing that deer. To a good hunter, an ethical hunter, losing an animal is no small thing...makes you question everything. Happened to me, with a shot very similar to the one you were presented with. .308 Winchester, and lost him after tracking all day in snow when he crossed a small river, stopped bleeding, and mingled with dozens of other deer tracks.

Based on your description of the shot you were presented with, your analysis of the variables of that shot, and your load...you didn't do ANYTHING wrong. Based on my 50 plus years of hunting, there is nothing wrong with your load; there is nothing wrong with the .243 for deer; and there is nothing wrong with your point of aim...dead thru the center of the chest is rarely wrong. Based on the deer photo and red dot aim point you posted, that is a killing shot. May or may not be an instant take-down shot, but a killing shot none-the-less. I'd guess he's out there piled up somewhere stone dead right now.

The fact that you were unable to track him to where he went down cannot always be within your control...although we all like to think that it is. Tracking conditions appear to have been such that he chose an escape route that you could not follow.

We all like to think that we are such superior hunters and marksmen that we can control all the essential factors of a successful shot. We often can ...but the plain truth is that on rare occassion you can do EVERYTHING right, and still lose the animal. Like all good hunters, you lost an animal and you want to analyze how to keep it from happening again...and you're looking at going to a bigger caliber.

Let's talk about that. My experience has taught me that once you seriously start to question if you need a bigger caliber, you may or may not need it, but you aren't going to feel confident again until you have that bigger caliber.
So, I'd suggest you go out and get the one that you like best, and go hunting with it. Get as proficient with it as you are with the .243 right now. Only after hunting a few seasons and taking a few animals with it, will you know if you actually needed it or not. In my case, I didn't need it, but it started a 30 year affair with .338's, .375's, and .45-70's so it was too late to turn back. Who knows, it may be the beginning of a whole new aspect of guns and hunting for you too.

 

[pete f]

nothing wrong with a 243

But i would say on moderate to large deer a Winchester 100 gr PP is probably too light of a bullet for a shot like your diagramed.

For what it costs and the peace of mind offered I would only shoot a premium bullet. A nosler Partition, one of WW new CT fail safes, or the trophy bonded as loaded by federal.
These are bullets designed for the big impact and will stand up and bore thru bone and thick tissue when the shot is not perfect. My son shot a deer at almost the same angle as you did and got lucky and found it nearly a mile away. I had luck and fresh snow on my side for finding that deer.
i have found that older slighty slower cartridges do a great job of anchoring deer from less than perfect shots.

 

[sturmruger]

For the last ten year I have used a Mini 14 for whitetail hunting here in NW WI. I use a 70gr HP that has been a very effective round. I have not shot any deer over 75 yards with it so I can't say much for long range shot but up close it has been a great little gun for deer. With that being said I am sure your .243 is a fine gun for deer you just has some really crappy luck with that shot.