Timing off on my Colt Navy... Help!!

[TheWall]

Okay, I am not very mechanical, but did try to repair my Pietta 1851 Colt Navy. The hand and spring had broken. I ordered a new one and decided to try and repair it myself.

I disassembled it fine. Reassembly was a bit challenging, but, I was able to get her back together.

The problem now is that the timing is slightly off -- rendering her unshootable.

How do I fix the timing????

 

[Tommygunn]

You may need to file back the tip of the hand .... but a better description of just what is going on would be a great benefit towards a proper diagnosis.

 

[OYE]

Check out this thread and post #31 by Rifle. Do a search

1851 Cylinder Does NOT Rotate to Lock Position

 

[denster]

If you are installing a new Pietta hand they do need to be properly fit as they, unlike Uberti, are not even close to a drop in fit. There is a progression to fitting a new hand and it is not difficult if you follow the steps in order.
I'd be happy to post the steps and some pics but first I'd need to know is this a Pietta hand from VTI or Dixie and have you done anything at all to it and with it installed what is the gun doing when you try to cock it? It is not quite as simple as just filing some off the top of the hand although that is part of it.

 

[Bluehawk]

Denster please do post how to fit a a hand to a Pietta as I'm sure all of us will have to do this in the future. The spare hands I have are from Pietta for my Remingtons.

 

[shunka]

greetings fellow netizens -
I offer for your consideration the following reading list for colts:

Pettifoggers articles -
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf

further reading:
http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/

I highly recommend
Home Gunsmithing the Colt Single Action Revolvers

and especially

"The Colt Single Action Revolvers: A Shop Manual Volumes 1 & 2" Book by Jerry Kuhnhausen

and for remingtons:
http://www.scorrs.org/
http://www.time-slice.com/mohave.gambler/favorites/Remington/58_Rem_tuning/58_Rem_tuning.htm

you will want to learn to "peen" the hands as well to lengthen them as required
yhs
shunka

 

[TheWall]

For what it is worth, the spare hand and spring part is from Pietta.

 

[TheWall]

Just looked over the pdfs -- whooaaa. Way over my head in terms of gunsmithing. I was able to put the revolver back together. the timing is just a little off - enough to make it dysfunctional.

Do I need to file down the bolt or the new hand spring? which one?

 

[TheWall]

Again, at full cock the nipple is slightly off alignment -- to the right of where it should be. also, after rotating the cylinder a couple of times, it totally locks up.

Before the hand spring broke, this revolver performed flawlessly. The timing was perfect, never any problems.

Again, the replacement hand and spring is from Pietta.

 

[OYE]

This was posted by "Rifle" in another thread. Hand adjustment is included here also.


The way I see it....the gun should function properly no matter how fast or slow you cock it. A properly tuned single action should be....when the hammer is pulled the bolt actuates ahead of the hand so the bolt gets out of the cylinder notch before the hand moves it so the bolt doesn't bind on the notch edge when the cylinder turns. A bolt that barely rubs the notch edge as the cylinder turns and affects only the bluing can surfice. Any metal removed from the notch edge by the bolt as the hand turns the cylinder is BAD. So first the bolt needs to get out of the notch before the hand turns the cylinder.At the other end of the action cycle...at the end.....the hand should be able to overrotate the cylinder a little past the bolts head. That will account for some wear to the hands tip or the cylinders index ratchets. The bolt stops the action from working any further by stopping the cylinder. The cylinder stops the hand. At this point with the hand putting a small amount of pressure on the ratchet tooth at the rear of the cylinder is good. Finely tuned can be,at this point,with the hand against the ratchet tooth of the cylinder but be against the tooth with no pressure or play(looseness). At the very end of the action cycle the trigger should "snick" into the full cock notch on the tumbler(hammer) simultaneously as the bolt "snicks" into the cylinders notch. The trigger and the bolt making two snicks at the end of the cycle should sound like one snick. Like the "cap&baller" has three "snicks" to the action instead of four.Anyway to test a single actions action like the "cap&ballers" the very slow working of it should be a proper action cycle. Slowly,very slow, work the action and the bolt moves just after the hammer moves. The "just after" the hammer moves is to allow a little play that will account for "blow back" if the gas can emmit enough pressure to move the hammer backwards a small amount. You don't want the bolt too close to the hammer cam since then the hammer getting some pressure from blow back(thru the nipple) can un-index the action and let the bolt be released from the cylinder notch as the gun fires. Not good for accuracy.After the bolt is out of the cylinder notch as the hammer is moved backwards the hand moves the cylinder and after some rotation of the cylinder the trigger hits(snick) into the half cock notch on the hammer and a little later as the cylinder rotates the bolts leg riding the cam slides off the hammers cam. The "snick" is of the bolt hitting the cylinder close to the cylinders notch edge....hopefully with a full bolt head width next to the cylinders notch and not any bolt head hanging over the notch edge any at all. A little hang over won't hurt if the bolts spring isn't too stiff. Don't want the bolt to peen down that important edge. The metal of the cap&ballers cylinder being rather soft.The next two clicks which are the trigger hitting into the hammers full cock and the bolt snicking into the cylinders notch should happen simultaneously. The trigger can snick into the hammers notch a little before the bolt snicks into the cylinder notch and that won't hurt anything if the triggers "snick" is before and close to the last snick which is the bolt going into the cylinder notch which stops the action cycle.At the end the hand should be against the cylinders ratchet with a little pressure. That accounts for the slop in the fit of the hammers screw and the trigger on it's screw ect.ect. The parts can move on the screws a little since they aren't a perfect fit with no looseness as the action stops. You want the hand next to the cylinders ratchet but if the alignment of the chambers to the bore show that the "little pressre" causes misalignment of the chambers to the bore you take the pressure off the hand by a little stoning. Hopefully before all the action work first the bolt was fit to the cylinder notch with no slop and fit to the frames bolt window with no slop as the chambers are aligned to the grooves of the barrel. That can cause some tricks of the trade to be used to get the bolt snug in the frames bolt window and snug in the cylinders notch as the chambers are aligned to the groove diameter in the barrel. That "snug" is good for accuracy and makes a good action by getting rid of some slop.Tricks of the trade are used all the way thru the action cycle to "time" the parts. Example....getting the bolt leg just right to slide off the hammers cam to get the bolt head to hit the cylinder in the right place. Adjust the triggers length to time the "full cock" snick to the bolts entering the cylinder notch "snick". Getting the bolts leg close enough to the hammers cam to actuate the bolts movement before the hand can touch the index ratchet tooth behind the cylinder.That is done usually by stoning or diamond filing the bolts bottom surface(when the gun is upside down and open to see in the "parts bin". That gets the bolts head further up into the frame window which can mean it gets too far into the window and needs the head adjusted so it just gets to the bottom of the cylinder notch as the bottom surface of the bolt is against the frame.....looking into the upside down open frame. It's just that the bolt is like a "teeter totter" like in the kids play ground. When one side (the screw thru the bolt is like the fulcrum)goes up the other goes down or visa versa. So if the bolts head is made to go into the frame window more then the bolts leg on the other end moves closer to the hammers cam. I might add....the main spring tension of a cap&baller should be a good bit stiffer than a cartridge single action so the bolts leg can be close to the hammers cam(even ride the cam so that any movement of the hammer moves the bolt). The blow back thru the nipples can move the hammer some if the mainspring tension is too slack. Too weak. The nipples holes have to be watched too tell when they need replaced. A finely tuned cap&baller ends up with closer specs and the nipples holes are some of those specs. The hands length is a closer spec too. If the gun is timed so the action stops "dead solid" then a little wear of the hands length can cause the hand to get too short and not rotate the cylinder far enough to get locked into battery. That's the subject of this post isn't it? Anyway a properly or finely tuned cap&baller should be able to be worked as slow as molasses in the winter time and work perfectly. Then you know when the action is worked faster it works properly also. You have to work it slow as you tune to check things. Onr thing I don't know if it has been mentioned about the hand. The corner at the tip(the right hand corner looking at the gun from the front) of the hand needs ground off at an angle so it doesn't hit and drag "or stop" against the curve of the opening. Sometimes a hand ins't too short but hits the frame and stops. The left side of the hand tip(looking from the front) is the edge that works the cylinder around to fruition. That edge is the important one...the one to be the exact length. The one that helps stop the hammer at the end of the action so there's a "dead stop" to the action. Everyone likes the "dead hard stop" at the end. makes the action feel as it's timed and indexed properly. Actually it would be proper. You want the hand against the ratchet tooth of the cylinder when the bolts in the cylinder notch locked into battery when the trigger is in the full cock of the hammer. The dead stop is the bolt stopping the cylinder when the cylinder notch one edge hits the bolt. That one edge takes a beating as does the bolts side of it's head. There has to be a good snug fit to the bolt in the frame window and hopefully a bolt that's snug to it's screw so when the bolt hits the cylinder the bolt can't tilt and expose an angled surface to the cylinder to hit. That can let the spring tension of the bolts spring give way and let the bolt be pushed into the frame window under the force of the cylinder hitting it. Lets the cylinder over rotate and damages the cylinders most important notch edge. Damages the side of thge cylinder notch that hits the bolt to stop the heavy cylinder full of powder and "lead".If you have to work the action of the gun faster to get it to work then.....it works. If you want it to be proper then you shouldn't have to work it fast. You should be able to work it as slow as you possibly can. That's how you check the timing and all. Some people say that if the action parts are against each other,like the hand agaist the cylinders ratchet tooth and the cylinder against the bolt then the parts wear under the pressure of the tension bearing against one another. Well.....that's too vague. You have to consider the amount of pressure the parts have against one another. It shouldn't be a lot. Just enough to have the action to stop solidly at the end. The pressure can be almost nothing if the parts are tuned properly. Some like the solid stop at the end of the action when the hammer stops dead against the backstrap. That can be nice. It gives you the feeling that the hammer against the backstrap takes the pressure. It does if the pressure of the other parts is minimized. A little wear to the hand and that action can end up with the under rotation this post is about. A new hand would need to be put in that action if the hand sustains a little wear. That's the problem with the "hammer hits the backstrap and stops the action" type tune up. A new hand more often. I've done the "hammers stops against the backstrap" for people that ask for it. There are occaisions where the backstrap is so far from the hammer when the hammers all the way back in the firing mode that another backstrap needs fitted or a tedious weld job and refinish needs done. On some guns like that I'd say it isn't worth the effort to get the hammer to stop the action against the backstrap. I'd say a gun like that would just need the hand against the ratchet of the cylinder and the bolt in the cylinders notch to stop the action "dead solid". Ther thickness of the hand is important since you want the hand to be against the cylinders ratchet tooth but be stopped solidly by the frame trapping it on that side. The hand stops against the ratchet on one side and against the frame on the other side. Most of the time peole don't mess with that since a lot of the time a new hand has to be made thicker to do that. It does help the "solid stop" at the end of the action cycle if the hand is trapped against the frame on one side and the ratchet on the other when the bolt is stopped in the cylinders notch. You don't want that little bit of overdraw to the hammer at the very end of the cycle. A tiny bit isn't too noticable but more than a tiny bit feels yucky. The hammer goes all the way back and then goes forward a little when it's let go. It's nicer to have the hammer go back and stop and stay right there and not go forward at all. Nice solid stop at the end of the cycle.Hope I didn't mis-type too many things. Hope this helps the cause. The "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" cause. Last edited by rifle; Today at 07:52 AM.

 

[TheWall]

Thanks....but....

Wow, that's a lot of information to digest. And it does not seem to provide a clear solution or instruction on what exactly I need to do to get the timing back.

I don't want to have to end up going to a gunsmith and spending $100 bucks on labor to get this fixed.

should i start by going back and reinstalling the new hand and spring? Should I file the hand a little?

The frustrating part is that it the timing is just slightly off.

 

[denster]

If the previous post seemed too complicated then maybe you should employee a gunsmith to install your hand. From what you describe the timing is more than just a little off. A gunsmith should not charge a $100 for labor unless he is ripping you off. For someone who understands the mechanics of the action fitting a hand is at most a half hour job or about $25 to $35. It is not as simple as just filing a little off the top of the hand. You said that your previous hand and spring were broken. Was the hand actually broken or just the spring? If it was just the spring you could use your previous hand as a template to form your new hand to as to length and the radius on the right side of the hand leaving a few thousandths for final fitting.

 

[TheWall]

It was the spring that broke off. So, you are saying that I can use the old hand as a template to file down the new one?

 

[shunka]

Welcome to the wonderful complicated world of revolver timing.

Yes, it is a lot of info to digest. However, the seemingly simple timing of the colt style hammer/bolt ramp/hand/bolt and springs combination is almost as complex as a watch escapement movement.

Whilst Reading about it is needed, plain raw practice and experience is also required until a thorough understanding of the mechanics is acquired.

Pettifogger and Rifle (aka Wayne) are two resources I treasure. Every time they post anything related to tuning I download and archive it to CD.

I also cannot emphasize the two two books enough, especially Kuhnhausen. Buy Kuhnhausen. Read Kuhnhausen. use Kuhnhausen. Eventually you may come to disagree with Kuhnhausen about certain specifics but that will only come with vast experience. And even then you may be wrong .

Further, whilst I am sure you feel you explained everything completely, it really is difficult to time a revolver for you remotely by web ... no offense, but there are little nuances that are difficult to completely explain without the work in my hands.

For instance, you explain "Again, at full cock the nipple is slightly off alignment -- to the right of where it should be. also, after rotating the cylinder a couple of times, it totally locks up."

This implies that the cylinder is rotating too far (hand too long) but also bolt is not engaging the bolt notch, otherwise the nipple would not move past "dead dead center"
and the hammer would not come to full cock.

You also did not completely explain "what broke". You wrote "The hand and spring had broken" . Which was it, the hand or the spring? If it was only the spring (most common breakage), one can "sometimes" replace that part only.

Now having said all that, and having done this a few times with various vendors colt replicas, it sounds like you need to gently remove a tish of material from the tip of the hand. However , if the old part worked flawlessly, get your dial caliper ( you don't have one?) and a very strong magnifying glass and compare the length of the old one to the length of the new one. You want to replicate the length and shape of the old one exactly.

Do not change any angles. Do not round any corners until you understand it all. do not polish with a buffer. Take a little off, then try it. repeat until success is achieved. It is a slow and iterative process.

To give you an idea of this complexity, whilst it seems that the hand just shoves a gear (the cylinder ratchet) "up" in actuality the relationship and angles of engagement and actual part of the hand tip and ratchet surface that engage each other change continuously as the hammer is cocked. Some folks like to change the tip of the hand from a "flat" to a "point" . do not even consider this until you have done a bunch of these and have perhaps 2 or 3 dozen hands in your parts box. To further complicate matters the strength of the hand spring will also change the angle and amount of engagement. If you continue, At some point you may well start making your own hands. Or not.

In one way, those of us who putz at this will often say "it ain't rocket surgery" ... however in other ways it can be.

You also started by saying you aren't very mechanical, so perhaps this is beyond your present skills?

Don't forget, the book learning and research is essential, and google is your friend.

hope this helps
yhs
shunka

 

[HisSoldier]

I don't understand (Not having ever taken mine apart may be why.) why you don't just put the spring from the new hand into the old hand?

 

[arcticap]

Because it sounds like a tedious process to replace the hand, I looked up the cost and I found that the Chicoine gunsmithing website lists the price below not including parts and shipping the gun to them. That may be a more work than necessary but many gunsmiths have a minimum charge and would say that they need to make a living.

Other Revolver Work

This list is by no means complete but here are a few of the more popular types of repair jobs, the cost of parts is not included.

Replace and hand fit the hand & handpring, completely re-time the revolver $100.

Replace and hand fit "early" or faulty bolt and completely re-index the revolver $125.

http://www.oldwestgunsmith.com/gunsmith/cowboy/sixgun.htm

 

[dogrunner]

Try to match the new hand with the old one.....if the new one is longer, then that's the problem.....likely that is the condition...if you cannot match up the parts (inclusive of ALL the angles...both extreme top of the part as well as the notch section ), then for your own peace of mind take it to a competent smith. Generally tho, if the clylinder is advancing too far then the hand is overlong. Not really too difficult to correct.

If the bolt is failing to drop at the proper time then you have an issue with the cog on the hammer or the bolt itself....again, if you don't feel comfortable with it get help.

Really not that complicated a job, but if you are a complete greenhorn then you'd be well served with some help............good luck.

 

[TheWall]

Well, I filed the new hand down to look like the old one. After a couple of tries, it's working, but not perfectly (the cylinder sometimes does not lock up rock solid at full cock). I did find the old broken spring. Perhaps I will take gun apart again (oy) to measure it next to the new one.

And when I said I am not mechanical, I meant that I don't like doing things mechanical, but can do when I put my mind to it (I've put together several Kinex roller coasters for my son...and have done repair work on bicycles).

Thanks for all your help.

 

[denster]

Glad to hear you got it working. Could you explain what you mean by not locking up rock solid? Since you've got the hard part done depending on what is going on there might be an easy fix.

As to the post on Chicoine's charges everyone is free to charge what people will pay. Personaly I'd feel guilty charging more than $25 for either job.

 

[TheWall]

Denster:

I have been cycling through it and it is working pretty well.

About every 12 or 13 full cocks, the cylinder is slightly off and is not rock solid -- it can be slightly inched back into its proper slot. Don't know what this means. Perhaps I need to slightly file the hand spring down?

But I am relieved that it's working and seems ready to shoot again.

 

[denster]

Whatever you do. Do not file the hand spring that will accomplish nothing positive just leave it be. Trust me on this.
Just so I understand the times it doesn't lock up do you have to rotate the cylinder back (counterclockwise) or forward(clockwise) to get the bolt to drop into the notch and lock up? Next when you are cocking to check the lockup are you doing it at normal speed or very slow and deliberate? I need to know this before I can give you an opinion on what's up. If it is only doing it once out of every 12 or 13 cycles it is a minor problem and you are almost home free.

 

[Hellgate]

I have replaced the spring in the hand with a section of a wide bobby pin. Find a bobby pin the same width of the spring and cut it to a little longer than the original spring. I mounted the hand in a vise and with a sharp edged chisel I slightly flared the crimped portion of the hand that held the spring to remove the fragment that stays. I then inserted the section of bobby pin (which is spring steel of unknown quality) and crimped it in place with a punch. I put a little bend in it like the original before peening it in place then installed it in the gun. It is actually stronger than the original and has worked for a couple of years but I am not using it for steady shooting so I do not know how long it will last but so far, so good and I didn't have to fit the hand.

 

[TheWall]

Denster: I can go at regular speed with no problem. About every 12th or 13th full cock I have to turn the cylinder ever so slightly counter clockwise to get it to lock. Thx for all your help.

 

[denster]

OK. Next thing to check is to cock it till it does it again then mark that cylinder and try it a few more times and check each time it does not lock up to see if it is always the same chamber. If it is then the corresponding notch may be slightly small. In anycase your timeing problem is solved it sounds like.
You mentioned that your revolver locks rock solid. I assume by this that you mean there is no perceptable rotational play in the cylinder when it is full cocked am I correct? A lot of folks think this is a good thing in reality it is not as your bolt may not be dropping completely into the notch. What can happen then is the smallest interference can cause the bolt to override the notch sometimes due to centrifigal force of normal speed cocking even thought the timing is spot on. Ideally I like there to be just the barest hint of rotational movement at full cock. Anyway check to see if it is always the same chamber and if it is take the cylinder off and closely examine the corresponding notch for any ticks we are talking minute here as little as a couple of tenths of a thousandth. By the way is this a relatively new gun?

 

[TheWall]

OK. Next thing to check is to cock it till it does it again then mark that cylinder and try it a few more times and check each time it does not lock up to see if it is always the same chamber. If it is then the corresponding notch may be slightly small. In anycase your timeing problem is solved it sounds like.
You mentioned that your revolver locks rock solid. I assume by this that you mean there is no perceptable rotational play in the cylinder when it is full cocked am I correct? A lot of folks think this is a good thing in reality it is not as your bolt may not be dropping completely into the notch. What can happen then is the smallest interference can cause the bolt to override the notch sometimes due to centrifigal force of normal speed cocking even thought the timing is spot on. Ideally I like there to be just the barest hint of rotational movement at full cock. Anyway check to see if it is always the same chamber and if it is take the cylinder off and closely examine the corresponding notch for any ticks we are talking minute here as little as a couple of tenths of a thousandth. By the way is this a relatively new gun?

Denster:

I checked the revolver again today and noticed I forgot to tighten the hammer screw the last time I put her back together. Full cocked it about 30 times without any problems.

Oh, and at full cock there is a tiny hint of rotational movement.

So, I think she is ready to get back out to the range.

Thanks again for all the advice. It's good to know I can do some modest repairs on my own. Even better knowing that I saved $100 to $120 in gunsmithing costs!!

You guys are the best.