(TN) Union schools hit with religion-related lawsuit

[rock jock]

Can someone please explain to me why tax dollars are being squandered to bus public school students to tent revivals? Thank you in advance.

Read the article. The revival rents the buses. No public monies are being used, either for the buses or the teachers salaries (since the are using vacation days to attend). As far as the revival goes, children are allowed to attend parades, funerals, community fairs, and other extracurricular activites. States mandate that these activites cannot reduce the number of hours spent in school, so no one is suffering. Furthermore, if you notice, attendance is voluntary. If you don't want to go, stay at school. But don't force your pagan beliefs on others by preventing them from attending.

As far as I can tell, the school may be partially responsible for abuse suffered at the hands of Ms. tracy, but only if they were aware that it was happening and if they had an opportunity to stop it.

 

[Tamara]

rock_jock,

Read it, thanks very much. Struck me as being a very "gov't school sanctioned thing".

I can just hear the howls of protest if your kid came home and asked you to sign a permission slip to keep him out of a Beltaine festival.

Why is gov't school affiliation with one invisible sky-spirit okay, but gov't school affiliation with a different invisible sky-spirit is taboo? Help me out, here...

 

[rock jock]

Struck me as being a very "gov't school sanctioned thing".

If it were, the school system would deserve a bigger slap than $300,000. More like school admins being out of a job.

I can just hear the howls of protest if your kid came home and asked you to sign a permission slip to keep him out of a Beltaine festival.

It depends. First, if I lived in Marin Co., Kali, I would probably expect it and would educate my son on why the other kids were going and why we do not share their beliefs and, more importantly, how he can effectively answer the questions of other students about our own. I would protest if any public monies were going to support attendance.

 

[Intune]

Rock Jock,

Read the article, and find out why they are only asking for $300k in damages. Not sanctioned by the school, eh? So a bunch of my buddies can go down to Beaumont and RENT a school bus for our annual festival on May 1st it's cool with you? Rock Jock, you said: "But don't force your pagan beliefs on others by preventing them from attending." That's rich! Read it again! ROTFLMAO
Oh, and if a bunch of our kids smack yours around for wearing that silly cross that's okay? They should have gone to a different school with more of their "type" around. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[rock jock]

Wow Intune, your handle sure is a misnomer. You are a little too quick on the trigger. Read my post carefully before you comment. Nowhere did I say that verbal or physical abuse of Ms. Tracy was justified or should be tolerated. Quite the contrary. I don't know of any Christians who would feel differently. In fact, most would look upon Ms. Tracy's opting out as an opportunity to open a discussion on religion.

Now, if you want to drive to Beaumont and rent a school bus for the day, I'm sure no one would object. However, if you expect kids to come to your pagan festival or even find someone willing to provide you with land, you'd be laughed right out of the county. Local mores prevail, as they should. If I moved to a community of Wiccan's, I would expect such a festival to succeed and attendance by kids on a school day to be high. Of course, finding such a community might be a little tough, even in the "enlightened" areas of this country. I wonder why?

 

[Glock Glockler]

Golgo-13,

Did we become the strongest country in the world because the govt was running schools with a virtual monopoly on them or in spite of it?

There was widespread illiteracy because when govt run schools were gaining more and more prevelance we were an agrarian society and there was really not much need for an extensive education. Even when we were becomming more and more industrialized, you didn't need to be able to translate ancient Greek in order to get a job and provide for yourself. The real reason for the push towards govt run educations was a reaction to the scores of immigrants coming into the country. Many nativists didn't like the idea of a foreign culture in the US, and thus wanted to Americanize those children.

Public education "works"? Well, what criteria are you using to determine what "working" is? If it means doing an adequate job of preparing children to become proficient and self-sustaining adults, it's doing an absolutely appauling job at it. When govt schools graduate children who cannot read, something is wrong. When children have absolutely no idea about even basic level economics and finance, something is wrong.

The entire system is based around and industrial society mindset (not that it even does a good job at that) and certainly does not prepare children for the information age. Just because a state's constutution has a clause reserving education as a govt function does not mean that having them run it is a good idea.

I cannot help wondering why a free-market works in production of food, computers, and just about everything else that is generally unmolested by govt, but it somehow cannot work with education.


Can someone please explain to me why tax dollars are being squandered to bus public school students to tent revivals? Thank you in advance.

Because it's govt, silly. Don't you know that they'll loose their buget if they don't blow it this fiscal year?

 

[Intune]

Wow, Rock, no misnomer on my part and my aim is slow and deliberate on easy targets. These are your words:

RJ: "As far as I can tell, the school may be partially responsible for abuse suffered at the hands of Ms. tracy, but only if they were aware that it was happening and if they had an opportunity to stop it."

India Tracy came to expect being sent to the principal's office even though she was a well-behaved, straight-A student.
When she declined to portray Mary in a Christmas play, she also was sent to the principal's office.
That India was forced to attend regular Bible study classes during the school day, and urged to lead the school and her class in prayer.

That derogatory names were written on her locker in permanent ink and the school refused to paint over the graffiti or move her locker.

That a teacher told India to "keep quiet because you'll get in trouble" after she wrote a paper about religious freedom.

That a bus driver regularly asked India in front of other students if she had gone to church yet and if she'd like to come to church.

Intune: Let me know when you start to get the idea that there may be a problem here Rock.


Rock: "In fact, most would look upon Ms. Tracy's opting out as an opportunity to open a discussion on religion."

Intune: Oh, I'm SURE they did RJ. And how much do you want to bet that the "discussion" wouldn't be to find out more about the beauty of her Pagan beliefs. That's where you would take the discussion to isn't it RJ? To learn more about the beliefs that her parents instilled in her? To share in the joy she feels? That IS what you would do, right?

Rock: "Now, if you want to drive to Beaumont and rent a school bus for the day, I'm sure no one would object."

Intune: Ah, but being intune (don'tyaknow) I am almost positive that they would indeed object and not rent a govt maintained vehicle to my bunch and therein lies the rub. Nor should they! This lawyer is going to eat their lunch. And breakfast as well as dinner.



Rock: Of course, finding such a community might be a little tough, even in the "enlightened" areas of this country. I wonder why?


Intune: I too wonder why RJ. Please tell me why you think there aren't many Wiccan communities around. I am very interested on your take. Also, please put yourself in this family's shoes. They shouldn't have to move to a particular area of the country to freely practice their religion or lack thereof. This is America. Put Islam, the Koran and Allah into this equation and tell me what you would feel when your kid came home banged up because he didn't face Mecca.

 

[rock jock]

Intune,

my aim is slow and deliberate on easy targets

Yeah, I can tell by your invective that you are certainly a calm and reasoned individual.

First, you assume a great deal. My original comments were directed at the issue of the revival, nothing more. If Ms. Tracy has in fact been pressured by the school to attend Bible studies, her suit is warranted and will prevail in court. I say "if" because the facts have not been presented yet, only allegations. Of course, this may meet you standard of proof, but not mine, nor the legal system.

Ah, but being intune (don'tyaknow) I am almost positive that they would indeed object and not rent a govt maintained vehicle to my bunch and therein lies the rub. Nor should they!

1. You DON'T KNOW that, you only assume (again). 2. Why should the school not rent buses to individual groups, as long as the rent includes a fee for maintenance? I seriously doubt this little podunk town has a Hertz on every corner. It may well be that the school buses are the only form of public transport within 50 miles.

Intune: Oh, I'm SURE they did RJ. And how much do you want to bet that the "discussion" wouldn't be to find out more about the beauty of her Pagan beliefs. That's where you would take the discussion to isn't it RJ? To learn more about the beliefs that her parents instilled in her? To share in the joy she feels? That IS what you would do, right?

More assumptions. My, my, we ARE seeing a trend here. And a little stereotyping to boot. Well, that seems about right. The truth is, I have had many many discussions with members of other religions, both organized and otherwise, about our mutual beliefs. And virtually all of these have been conducted in an environment of respect and tolerance. Rarely do we agree, but we are both educated and are the better because of it. Of course, generally these people aren't given over to a lot of assumptions and vicious stereotyping, but then again, they aren't so overcome with anger that they can't engage in civil discourse in the first place.

 

[Intune]

My invectives? If you are so easily affronted perhaps you need to take a deeper look within. This is America. Local mores are transcended by the Constitution. I “assume†nothing. I am merely discussing a case in which you have the same “facts†as I. Do you feel at a disadvantage? A standard of proof has not been raised at all. I ask again, do you feel at a disadvantage? I deduce that a Union City or Beaumont school bus may not be rented out by a private party for an excursion. Particularly a religious one. I don’t care if they are a thousand miles from the nearest municipality. Care to make a bet on some crow munchin? So now you infer that I deduced wrongly on the inference that you would not embrace her religion and feel that she will not sit upon the right hand of God in her afterlife? One easy question will prove me wrong. Do you feel that Pagans go to Heaven? You avoided the question as to your feeling toward a Muslim school that treated one of your children this way. Will you address it now? “They†have as much right as you. Do you agree with that? Should they have to move to a more “enlightened†enclave? "But don't force your pagan beliefs on others by preventing them from attending." There’s civility for ya!

 

[Intune]

Oh, one thing to add, God bless you and yours.

 

[pax]

sigh.

See what I mean?

pax

No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other. -- Jascha Heifetz

 

[jmbg29]

Yes, vouchers are the way to solve it, and the NEA is shaking in its boots that it might actually happen. So let it be written, so let it be done!

AMEN!

 

[Joe Demko]

There was widespread illiteracy because when govt run schools were gaining more and more prevelance we were an agrarian society and there was really not much need for an extensive education.

So it's okay for farm kids to be illiterate? Or the children of miners and unskilled factory workers? Our ancestors who instituted public education didn't think so and neither do I.

The real reason for the push towards govt run educations was a reaction to the scores of immigrants coming into the country. Many nativists didn't like the idea of a foreign culture in the US, and thus wanted to Americanize those children.

Nice story. Citation?

what criteria are you using to determine what "working" is?

The overwhelming majority of children in this country can read, write, do mathematics, and grow up to be productive citizens.

When govt schools graduate children who cannot read, something is wrong. When children have absolutely no idea about even basic level economics and finance, something is wrong.

Source? From where are you pulling this? Show me that this widespread problem, as you see it, actually exists. For every child you can show me who graduates without being able to read, I will show you thousands who can. The business world has people who slip through the system while being ingnorant and/or incompetent too. Does business not "work?"

The entire system is based around and industrial society mindset (not that it even does a good job at that) and certainly does not prepare children for the information age.

Is it? Then I wonder why we have all those computers and other information age devices. I wonder why we teach courses in how to use them. I wonder why we have vo-tech schools that offer diplomas in information processing, computer programming, and other information age areas. My school is very poor, and we are squarely in the information age, thank you very much.

Just because a state's constutution has a clause reserving education as a govt function does not mean that having them run it is a good idea.

Just becasue a legislature abolishes an clause doesn't make that a good idea, either.

I cannot help wondering why a free-market works in production of food, computers, and just about everything else that is generally unmolested by govt, but it somehow cannot work with education.

It had the chance and it didn't work. If free-enterprise had been providing effective and widespread education, public schools wouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Dear Intune and Rock Jock,

I'd like to echo the words of Mr. Ernie Klump, when he said in the cinematic tour de force "Nutty Professor II":

"Stop the Violence! Stop the Violence!"

 

[DeltaElite]

Wasn't this country founded on religious freedom?
I guess intolerance is also a virtue of organized religion.

 

[jmbg29]

I'd like to echo the words of Mr. Ernie Klump

That would be Dr. Klump.

 

[Intune]

Truce!

I agree. Religious discussions always seem to spiral downward at a fast clip. RJ's position was quite clear in his first post. That I happened to disagree about the revival being the important thing instead of this child's rights and face being trampled led us down a dark path. I apologize both to RJ and the board. We have much more in common and should not let a little thing like eternal life get in the way. I will however find out if ANY school system lets people rent their busses.

 

[buzz_knox]

In this neck of the woods, yes, you can rent school buses. They are the property of private companies who have contracts with schools. But, to the best of my knowledge, they remain private property. As such, they can be leased out to private citizens.

As for the rest, before we lynch these people, would it not be appropriate to remember that the information contained in the article comes from the plaintiffs in a lawsuit, who are not necessarily predisposed to say anything but what is best for their said? This article is the opening gambit in a bid to poison the jury pool and/or reach a settlement. The plaintiff's attorney shouldn't have even given the interview.

 

[Intune]

One order of crow comin up! A side of humility with that serving please.

I think it's the feathers that make it so hard to swallow. It's not the WRONG part mind you! Our busses are bought, maintained and used by the county. Do you live near that county Buzz? I'm tryin to salvage something here! If they don't offer that rental service to all interested parties they are really in the legal doghouse.

 

[buzz_knox]

I live in Knox Co. and grew up in Anderson Co., as well as spent quite some time in Union.

As for the buses, my information could be off but I do believe that around here, they are private property. I could always be wrong so hold off on the crow pie. In any event, even if they are private property, the school system probably has some say in how they are used as they do have the county logo on them. In that circumstance, they would have to make them available to everyone as a rule (although some exceptions may be allowed).

 

[DeltaElite]

I love ya all, no matter what race, religion or ethnicity you are.
The above does not apply to anti gun advocates.

 

[hutch24]

Up here the school busses are owned by a private company and leased by the school district. Private citizens can rent the busses provided they have the proper endorsement on their drivers license. I don't know if this is the case in TN.

 

[JCOJR]

Intune

I deduce that a Union City or Beaumont school bus may not be rented out by a private party for an excursion. Particularly a religious one.

Small correction on this statement. Many school buses were rented by people in counties adjacent to Nashville to bring people to the Billy Graham Crusade

 

[rock jock]

All right, enough with the group hug. I agree religion is a topic that can bring out the worst in folks.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Irrespective of the school bus issue, it sounds like kids are being organized to attend the revival through the school. If so, that's just wrong.