Toggle lock with modern materials

WestKentucky

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I was looking at some interesting stuff about industrialization in the first half of the 20th century (and shortly before) that emphasized how widespread war and threat of war really pushed technological innovation and how things that initially seemed to fail got an extra push in development to make it work. That made me think of the toggle lock. Everybody thinks Luger but also there were borchardt pistols, and a few automatics around as well, so the design proved viable but it still died quickly. Why hasn’t anybody else tried a toggle lock? Is it just that they are so strongly linked to the nazi regime since they seem to be predominantly German military weapons from early 20th century? And what could a modern toggle do that other designs can’t?
 
Like say, the Broomhandle Mauser it was a Technological/design dead end, like so many first generation designs it worked great at the time, then better designs came along. Having fired a Luger I find the toggle lock distracting.
Modern materials ? German manufacture in 1900 was top notch, quality materials, workmanship, etc. The Mauser M194/1934 had a long production runs but have design quirks that more recent designs have corrected.
Lots of dead end designs in handguns-the gas operated pistol, rotating barrels, delayed blowback, top break revolver, etc.
 
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Like say, the Broomhandle Mauser it was a Technological/design dead end, like so many first generation designs it worked great at the time, then better designs came along. Having fired a Luger I find the toggle lock distracting.
Modern materials ? German manufacture in 1900 was top notch, quality materials, workmanship, etc. The Mauser M194/1934 had a long production runs but have design quirks that more recent designs have corrected.
Lots of dead end designs in handguns-the gas operated pistol, rotating barrels, delayed blowback, top break revolver, etc.
I agree specifically with handguns, that toggle lock mechanism would be a visual distraction, and a hand biter if turned to the side, and wouldn’t function as a repeater if working into the magazine well, so I agree, it’s essentially a dead end after the p08. The simplicity of the design though with respect to light machine guns and crew served machine guns, and especially submachine guns seems like it would have made for a more fitting home. A toggle delayed blowback submachine gun sounds like a good idea, especially considering a lot of the military technology at the time was essentially a burp gun firing from open bolt with a fixed firing pin. It does seems like it would be a particularly fragile action for heavy rifle rounds so I would guess long arms would be out because the size needed for strength would be heavy, but then with the LMGs and heavy MGs it seems like a fitting option for bottom ejecting belt fed beasts.
 
I agree specifically with handguns, that toggle lock mechanism would be a visual distraction, and a hand biter if turned to the side, and wouldn’t function as a repeater if working into the magazine well, so I agree, it’s essentially a dead end after the p08. The simplicity of the design though with respect to light machine guns and crew served machine guns, and especially submachine guns seems like it would have made for a more fitting home. A toggle delayed blowback submachine gun sounds like a good idea, especially considering a lot of the military technology at the time was essentially a burp gun firing from open bolt with a fixed firing pin. It does seems like it would be a particularly fragile action for heavy rifle rounds so I would guess long arms would be out because the size needed for strength would be heavy, but then with the LMGs and heavy MGs it seems like a fitting option for bottom ejecting belt fed beasts.
Both Walther and Petersen designed toggle-lock service rifles. The advantage is they don't require any sort of gas system. The downside is they require a moving barrel (which doesn't do well with an attached bayonet), and in the case of the Petersen, lubricated cartridge cases.
 
The Maxim and it's relatives used a toggle lock, and they can be seen even today in Ukraine.
 
If you want toggles, look into the designs of Adolf Furrer in Switzerland -- that man loved toggles!


He even stuck one on a SMG, the Swiss Lmg-Pist 41/44, arguably the most over-engineered SMG ever adopted:

 
Lots of dead end designs in handguns-the gas operated pistol, rotating barrels, delayed blowback, top break revolver, etc.
There are current production gas operated, delayed blowback and rotating barrel pistols. In some applications, these systems are more ideal than short recoil or simple blowback. The 5.7x28 is one of the most notable rounds for deviation from conventional design in that not one of the pistols on the market uses simple blowback or tilting barrel/locking block short recoil.

As for top breaks, I would love to see modern ones, but strength and case ejection are the limiting factor. They would be a good fit for auto pistol cartridges, though. I have a number of antique top breaks in .22, .32 and .38. They're fun.

As for a toggle lock pistol, probably not coming back. It's still a short recoil design that requires a reciprocating barrel, but more delicate small parts and tighter tolerances than Browning-type tilt barrel or P38/Beretta style locking block. Basically, in the vein of most things German, it accomplishes the same task but with much more complex and fickle design.
 
Why hasn’t anybody else tried a toggle lock?
It's not the materials so much as the parts count. Also, as noted cogently above, the amount of barrel movement required.

The sliding wedge Browning barrel lock just needs some ramped surfaces. A toggle will need at least two parts and three pivot pins, which means you need a similar number of drilled holes, and the geometry and tolerance of each of those affects operation. In addition, the barrel will need to move withing some sort of engineered path, long with a separate, reciprocating slide. Also, you will need a way to hold all the pins in place as the parts move about.

Furrer even built a 15mm anti-tank rifle with a toggle lock. It's possible, it's just not easy engineering. And, in use, all of those contacting surfaces have to work in a somewhat exact manner. Which leaves them vulnerable to dirt, grit, and/or wear.

There's a term, a bit out of fashion these days, in Engineering, it's "elegance." This is a notion to use the least material, fewest parts, and with the greatest efficiency to achieve the desired end goal safely, surely, and reliably. By that measure, a toggle lock is not elegant. It works, but it is not elegant.

"Elegance" can be carried too far--pure blowback 'locking' being an example. Which is why delayed blowback exists in so many forms.
 
Both Walther and Petersen designed toggle-lock service rifles. The advantage is they don't require any sort of gas system. The downside is they require a moving barrel (which doesn't do well with an attached bayonet), and in the case of the Petersen, lubricated cartridge cases.
The Pedersen design does not have a moving barrel, and it is not truly a toggle action, it is a delayed blow-back design. The "toggle" is actually a three-bar linkage that never quite goes into a straight line between pins, one is always higher than the others, and first and third links are in contact through a carefully shaped cam. The manufacturing tolerances on that cam were very tight.

tumblr_inline_nmk8d7Lm6v1qapn73_1280.jpg
 
The Pedersen design does not have a moving barrel, and it is not truly a toggle action, it is a delayed blow-back design. The "toggle" is actually a three-bar linkage that never quite goes into a straight line between pins, one is always higher than the others, and first and third links are in contact through a carefully shaped cam. The manufacturing tolerances on that cam were very tight.

tumblr_inline_nmk8d7Lm6v1qapn73_1280.jpg
Neato, never looked at it that closely.
Much like Garands' primer actuated designs, way overthought.
 
I can't think of a reason in the world why a gun maker would design a new toggle action pistol today. Certainly a reliable, functional pistol could be made with modern design, manufacturing, and materials, but the market would never justify it. Remember, when the Luger was replaced in German military service, it was not because of any functional shortcomings or reliability issues, it was because the design was so fiendishly expensive to manufacture. I think it's hilarious, and ironic that for the better part of a century, people have accepted the received wisdom that the Luger, with is exposed mechanism, was unduly sensitive to, and unreliable when exposed to dirt, grit, and mud. But when Karl Kasarda and Ian McCollum of InRangeTv performed a series of tests of various firearms dunking them in mud, the Luger -- the supposedly mud-vulnerable Luger -- outperformed all the other handguns tested. It was, in fact, the only handgun rested to continue functioning unimpeded. Turns out that when the action is closed, it's pretty tightly sealed against ingress of gunk, and with the toggle action that locks like a knee joint, there are no critical locking surfaces to get gummed up with grit and dirt, it just keeps running.

But it's still a technological dead end. First off, for all its reliability (when manufactured correctly), it's expensive. You have a multiplicity of machining operations, and that costs more money. The per-unit cost for each gun goes way up. Second off, it's much harder to achieve parts interchangeability with so many separate machining operations, each with its possibility of introducing error. Lugers had every last part serial numbered so that armorers, with more than one pistol on their bench, wouldn't mix the parts up, because if they did, the guns couldn't be depended on to function. By contrast, an M1911 could mix and match parts indiscriminately, and still be counted on to run just fine, because of how much simpler production was. Third, it makes for a more ammo-sensitive gun. The toggle joint is far lighter in mass than a slide, and therefore opens and closes far more rapidly, This makes it far more critical to dial in the strength the magazine spring, and the burn rate of the powder, the bullet weight and velocity, etc. With a much faster-cylcling action, the magazine simply must push the next cartridge up into position in time. This faster cycling time makes the toggle action action, in addition to being far more expensive to manufacture, far less tolerant of variances in ammo quality.

There's a reason the Browning tilting barrel has shaken out over the last century to become by far the dominant system in handgun design. It best combines the features of reliability, accuracy, economy of production, mechanical simplicity, and parts interchangeabilty. The toggle lock, for all its particular virtues, can't get anywhere close to this successful formula to justify a revival.
 
Thomas Edison observed that finding out what doesn't work is as useful as finding out what does. The Johnson vs. the Garand, e.g. The Israelis developed a copy of the Johnson Light Machine called the Dror, didn't work well in their sandy and dusty conditions.
IIRC 380 ACP is the maximum a straight blowback action can handle. Beyond that you either need a spring so powerful that 90% of shooters couldn't handle it or a breechblock/slide that is too heavy.
 
Thomas Edison observed that finding out what doesn't work is as useful as finding out what does. The Johnson vs. the Garand, e.g. The Israelis developed a copy of the Johnson Light Machine called the Dror, didn't work well in their sandy and dusty conditions.
IIRC 380 ACP is the maximum a straight blowback action can handle. Beyond that you either need a spring so powerful that 90% of shooters couldn't handle it or a breechblock/slide that is too heavy.

Hi-Point makes 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm blowback pistols. The market success would suggest they're not "too heavy", but they are definitely chunky things that a lot of us have no interest in.

Yes, generally speaking, .380 is the limit for a practical, ergonomic pistol of reasonable proportions and weight.

Carbines are a different animal, lots of good simple blowback ones in the aforementioned more potent chamberings.
 
IIRC 380 ACP is the maximum a straight blowback action can handle. Beyond that you either need a spring so powerful that 90% of shooters couldn't handle it or a breechblock/slide that is too heavy.
Generally agree; even .380 can be pretty snappy in straight blowback handguns. Blowback works well in PCCs. And then, there's the brick with a grip, the High Point.
Back to toggle links; no one has mentioned the '73 Winchester (and its forbears), which has a manually operated toggle action. It is currently marketed up to .44 Mag, which seems a lot. Browning's later levers, the '92 and '94, are much stronger.
Moon
 
The Pedersen design does not have a moving barrel, and it is not truly a toggle action, it is a delayed blow-back design. The "toggle" is actually a three-bar linkage that never quite goes into a straight line between pins, one is always higher than the others, and first and third links are in contact through a carefully shaped cam. The manufacturing tolerances on that cam were very tight.

tumblr_inline_nmk8d7Lm6v1qapn73_1280.jpg
Thank you for clarifying how the Pederson action actually works.
 
There are current production gas operated, delayed blowback and rotating barrel pistols. In some applications, these systems are more ideal than short recoil or simple blowback. The 5.7x28 is one of the most notable rounds for deviation from conventional design in that not one of the pistols on the market uses simple blowback or tilting barrel/locking block short recoil.

As for top breaks, I would love to see modern ones, but strength and case ejection are the limiting factor. They would be a good fit for auto pistol cartridges, though. I have a number of antique top breaks in .22, .32 and .38. They're fun.

As for a toggle lock pistol, probably not coming back. It's still a short recoil design that requires a reciprocating barrel, but more delicate small parts and tighter tolerances than Browning-type tilt barrel or P38/Beretta style locking block. Basically, in the vein of most things German, it accomplishes the same task but with much more complex and fickle design.
I have an Excel Arms MP-5.7 P1 in 5.5x28. It's a straight blowback. The S&W is an unusual gas operated design. The Ruger is hard to figure out.

The Luger is in current production. but it's a tiny market.
 
I have an Excel Arms MP-5.7 P1 in 5.5x28. It's a straight blowback. The S&W is an unusual gas operated design. The Ruger is hard to figure out.

The Luger is in current production. but it's a tiny market.
Excel Arms is defunct. I did say "on the market", not "ever produced"

The Ruger 57, FN Five-Seven and PSA Rock use a lever type delay system. It's not exactly lever delayed blowback in that the barrel does reciprocate and there's nothing attached to the levers that creates a mechanical disadvantage with mass, but it's not quite a locked breech either. The S&W is a gas operated rotating barrel. It's also a horribly uncomfortable thing. I'm a S&W guy, but they dropped the ball on that one. In my personal and professional opinion, the PSA Rock is the best of the bunch. It's also the lowest cost option. We keep that and the Ruger as demo/development hosts. The Rock has never missed a beat suppressed, which I cannot say for the Ruger.

20230603_132323.jpg
 
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The Pedersen design does not have a moving barrel, and it is not truly a toggle action, it is a delayed blow-back design. The "toggle" is actually a three-bar linkage that never quite goes into a straight line between pins, one is always higher than the others, and first and third links are in contact through a carefully shaped cam. The manufacturing tolerances on that cam were very tight.

tumblr_inline_nmk8d7Lm6v1qapn73_1280.jpg

BTW, in the 1930s the Japanese trialed an interesting adaptation (Type Hei) of the Pederson rifle's toggle action combined with gas operation, designed by Masaya Kawamura .


 
Was unaware that Excel was defunct. The Ruger has a movable barrel which probably is a factor in poor reliability with a suppressor. I didn't find any lever involved. Supposedly the barrel moves back providing the delay, It;s a puzzle to me because back in the dawn of time there were "blow forward" pistol actions in which the breech was fixed and the barrel blown forward.
How well does the suppressor work for 5.7x28? I have one in process that is rated for 5.7x28.
 
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