Tokarev reloads in C96

[Walkingfunk]

I’ve heard the horror stories of shooting tokarev ammo in the c96, but since it’s so much more available and will chamber, would pulling the projectiles and reloading them super mild be a dangerous idea?
If the pressures are low, then wouldn’t it be okay?

 

[Bcwitt]

Would be fine. Just use 30 mauser data. It might be difficult to seat & crimp bullets back into steel militery cases, however.

 

[wiscoaster]

Where are you finding Tokarev "much more available" may I ask? I've been looking and all I can find is S&B at a buck thirty or so a round at a few online sites. I can't force myself to go there yet at those prices.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Where are you finding Tokarev "much more available" may I ask? I've been looking and all I can find is S&B at a buck thirty or so a round at a few online sites. I can't force myself to go there yet at those prices.

Probably relative to "not available at any price" for some calibers and certainly some regions of the country.

Todd.

 

[Walkingfunk]

Yeah, when I say more available I just mean I have seen tokarev ammo for sale in stores, but I’ve only ever seen two stores that even had a box of 7.63 unobtanium (pre-covid).
I like buying in person cause shipping always kills the price.

 

[JohnKSa]

I like buying in person cause shipping always kills the price.

Buying online is good when something isn't available in local stores or when buying in bulk. It's hard for me to justify buying online in terms of price in less than case quantities, and about 2000 rounds seems to be where it works out the best.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Buying online is good when something isn't available in local stores or when buying in bulk. It's hard for me to justify buying online in terms of price in less than case quantities, and about 2000 rounds seems to be where it works out the best.

While I haven't ordered in a while - most (if not all) of my buys have been free shipping and then too, I've saved the local sales tax.

Likely no one is offering free shipping these days and more and more enterprises are assessing tax whether they pay it on or not.

Probably, the *golden age* of ammo ordering to our doors is passed and gone for ever.

Todd.

 

[Mosin77]

.30 Luger, .30 Mauser, and 7.62 Tokarev are all very similar cartridges. I believe the latter two are considered “hotter” than the former, and I know Tokarev ammo will fire in a Mauser no problem. Lots of people know someone who knew someone who blew up a C96 with “hot subgun Tokarev ammo” (or, that certain flavors of Tok-chambered pistol, be it TT33, CZ-52, or whatever, were engineered ridiculously strong so they could handle that same mythical ammo) and other folks say there’s not a whisper of truth to it. When I regularly shot a nice C96, I just made sure I gave it a new spring kit first, and had not a bit of trouble with regular commercial Tok loads. I would not run random corrosive surplus ammo of questionable age, origin, and storage history in a C96. And I wouldn’t fire one with hundred+ year old springs of questionable metallurgy, which might facilitate my expensive gun’s beating itself to death. But I wouldn’t sweat a box of (for example) PPU Tokarev ammo.

 

[Jimbo80]

I wouldn't take any chances with my C96.

 

[Jim Watson]

In 1939 .30 Mauser muzzle velocity was listed at 1392 fps BY MAUSER.

 

[fxvr5]

Fiocchi's current 7.63 Mauser shows a 88 grain bullet at 1425 fps.

Fiocchi's current 7.62 Tokarev shows a 85 grain bullet at 1525 fps.

 

[P5 Guy]

30 Mauser Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases (starlinebrass.com)

If you have the tools to pull bullets, reload powder and reseat bullets why go to all that trouble and just buy some brass, powder, primers and bullets and make your own?

 

[Walkingfunk]

I dunno, just curious if it would work.

 

[Jerry M]

.30 luger is a much shorter case! Not to be confused with the .30 Mauser - 7.62x25 which are the same case loaded to different velocities/pressure.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Added to answer the opening post: I have pulled bullets from military surplus 7.62 Tokarev and used the primed casings loaded with different bullet and powder charge to get better accuracy than I could get from my C96 using commercial or military surplus ammo. I decided not to shoot military surplus ammo in my C96 because I have encountered individual lots of 7.63 Tokarev with higher than normal pressure and recoil and I suspect it may have been stored under conditions that could lead to degradation of the powder.

WHB Smith "Small Arms of the World" 1966 shows the muzzle velocity of the standard WWII issue 7.63 Mauser slightly higher than the 7.62 Tokarev.

The biggest problem with firing "hotter" 7.62 Tokarev ammo in a C96 is that a weak hammer spring or weak bolt spring or both let the recoiling bolt batter the bolt stop til the rear of the barrel extension peens, then bows out, and eventually fails.
If a C96 has springs too weak to handle 7.62 Tokarev ammo, the springs are probably too weak to handle normal specification 7.63 Mauser.

(I am of the impression that 1940s and 1950s commercial Remington .30 Mauser pistol ammo was deliberately downloaded to go easy on antique and war trophy C96s. For that matter, the Brits considered Winchester 9mm Luger ammo weak compared to British and German made 9mm Parabellum. The belief that US ammo makers downloaded 9mm Luger and 7.63 Mauser ammo because of all the WWI and WWII antique/war trophies is hard to shake off.)

If you want to shoot an antique C96, replace the hammer and bolt springs. I do not call the bolt spring the recoil spring, because the hammer spring retards the bolt's recoil more than the bolt spring does.

 

[tark]

Added to answer the opening post: I have pulled bullets from military surplus 7.62 Tokarev and used the primed casings loaded with different bullet and powder charge to get better accuracy than I could get from my C96 using commercial or military surplus ammo. I decided not to shoot military surplus ammo in my C96 because I have encountered individual lots of 7.63 Tokarev with higher than normal pressure and recoil and I suspect it may have been stored under conditions that could lead to degradation of the powder.

WHB Smith "Small Arms of the World" 1966 shows the muzzle velocity of the standard WWII issue 7.63 Mauser slightly higher than the 7.62 Tokarev.

The biggest problem with firing "hotter" 7.62 Tokarev ammo in a C96 is that a weak hammer spring or weak bolt spring or both let the recoiling bolt batter the bolt stop til the rear of the barrel extension peens, then bows out, and eventually fails.
If a C96 has springs too weak to handle 7.62 Tokarev ammo, the springs are probably too weak to handle normal specification 7.63 Mauser.

(I am of the impression that 1940s and 1950s commercial Remington .30 Mauser pistol ammo was deliberately downloaded to go easy on antique and war trophy C96s. For that matter, the Brits considered Winchester 9mm Luger ammo weak compared to British and German made 9mm Parabellum. The belief that US ammo makers downloaded 9mm Luger and 7.63 Mauser ammo because of all the WWI and WWII antique/war trophies is hard to shake off.)

If you want to shoot an antique C96, replace the hammer and bolt springs. I do not call the bolt spring the recoil spring, because the hammer spring retards the bolt's recoil more than the bolt spring does.

A lot of very good info and advice here. Small Arms of the World listed the German military load for the 7.63 at 1575 FPS. That's pretty hot !!!

In Europe, where they use the "CIP" method to measure pressures, The Tok round is loaded to 35,000 CIP and the Mauser to 33,000. So the 7.62X25 IS slightly hotter than the Mauser. Limited shooting of Tok ammo in a C-96 shouldn't hurt the gun at all....provided the gun is in good shape in the first place. But I would not shoot any C-96, no matter how pristine it looks, without replacing the hammer and bolt springs first. Wolff and others make them They are cheap.

 

[lsudave]

Where are you finding Tokarev "much more available" may I ask? I've been looking and all I can find is S&B at a buck thirty or so a round at a few online sites. I can't force myself to go there yet at those prices.

There's a large LGS in my city, that carries "everything" to some extent. Right now, most of the ammo shelves are barren; over on the farthest side there were a few boxes of obscure stuff. I recall them having both Tok and Mauser ammo, I think it was PPU Tok and Fiocchi Mauser, both running about $25-29 a box. Also had some 38 Super, and interestingly enough .32 ACP (which I would have guessed to have vanished).

In reflection, I wonder if the 32 being available was due to people stocking up when they bought their Beretta 81's (that seemed to be the big surge for that caliber), and not wanting/needing any yet.

 

[5-SHOTS]

I can imagine that problems between C96 and 7.62 Tokarev are caused from the use of military surplus ammo made for submachine guns. Many CZ 52 have been knocked out by military surplus ammo.

 

[tark]

I can imagine that problems between C96 and 7.62 Tokarev are caused from the use of military surplus ammo made for submachine guns. Many CZ 52 have been knocked out by military surplus ammo.

Subgun ammo in these two calibers has never existed. Many CZ 52s have been knocked out because, in reality, the pistol is not a very strong design, roller lock or not. They do not hold up well to extensive use.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Subgun ammo in these two calibers has never existed. Many CZ 52s have been knocked out because, in reality, the pistol is not a very strong design, roller lock or not. They do not hold up well to extensive use.

I was guessing if the PPS submachine gun used a hotter 7.62 Tokarev load. Like the 9mm Para made for the MAB submachine gun.

 

[MJ]

When times got tight years ago I made my own 7.62X25 from LC70s .223 brass. The brass is thicker in the waist where you cut it so the case mouth needs reaming. You can spend $40 on a reamer or just buy the correct metric drill bit. There are how to do its on u tube and I don't see why you can't fire form for the C96.

 

[barnetmill]

There is another load for that case

 

[tark]

I was guessing if the PPS submachine gun used a hotter 7.62 Tokarev load. Like the 9mm Para made for the MAB submachine gun.

They didn't. There is a member here, a cartridge collector, who specializes in 7.63 Mauser and 7.62X25. He is a member of an international cartridge collector's association and I'm pretty sure he knows his stuff. He has stated on several occasions that subgun ammo in those two calibers never existed. If you find any I'm betting he's gonna want to buy it off of you. Lol.

When times got tight years ago I made my own 7.62X25 from LC70s .223 brass. The brass is thicker in the waist where you cut it so the case mouth needs reaming. You can spend $40 on a reamer or just buy the correct metric drill bit. There are how to do its on u tube and I don't see why you can't fire form for the C96.

I have done the same. Be careful with charges, however. The .223 case is quite a bit thicker and has less internal capacity. Powder charges must be dropped accordingly. I found that I could just seat the bullet without reaming and the rounds still chambered in my Tokarev. But that's just my Tokarev....They might not chamber in a C-96. My biggest problem was getting the bullet to stay put during chambering. I tried a stab crimp but that didn't work so well. I finally gave up on the idea.

 

[jag22]

General rule of thumb, if the box says 7.63 Mauser its good for a C96. PPU is what I use.
If it say 7.62 Tok that should be avoided for C96.
I used to reload it but it isn't easy and getting more difficult for these aging fingers. When I couldn't find
the 86 grain bullets I tried 110 gr .308 (M-1 carbine bullet) and they worked fine, read all the details
in Handloader magazine. (I think) If interested in buying my dies and inventory let me know.

 

[MJ]

Here ya go if you have to do what you have to do.