Too Hot or Not 45 acp

[fxvr5]

Possible gun damage. I shot 45acp -10.5 gr BlueDot with 208 gr cast lswc, WLP, out of a S&W 645. The slide speed was high & needed the extractor adjusted to feed correctly.
The factory recoil spring got kinked.

The S&W 645 is an all steel, well built gun.View attachment 1178354

High recoil does not mean it is a 'proof load'. A proof load is defined by very high peak chamber pressure. You can get high recoil from a load that is within normal operating pressure limits, and the Blue Dot load appears to be within normal pressure limits, as it is within load data from Speer for a 200 grain bullet, and data from Lyman for their 200 and 225 grain lead bullets. It's not a proof load, but it might produce high recoil if it pushes the bullet fast enough.

 

[AJC1]

So then why did you ask for our opinion?


Majority of my 26 year work for state of CA involved investigating when death or fall/serious injury occurred and my job was to determine if any violation of local/state/federal laws/regulations had occured.

What I have noticed during my investigations as federally certified and state licensed surveyor was patients/residents/clients prior to arriving at various healthcare facilities (Whether walk-in clinic, ambulatory surgery/ER, short-term elective/emergent/rehab care or intermediate/transitional/long-term care, dialysis care to hospice care), they usually have higher cognitive/physical function until they don't and sometimes family blame the facility when drop in cognitive/physical function would have happened even if patient/resident/client stayed at home.

So while seasoned and careful reloaders like us could have loaded "safe" rounds while keeping careful notes for decades (Over a million pistol/rifle rounds for me past 30 years), there will come a day when our cognition and memory will drop in function and we could forget/make a mistake and not even know it ... Because we are all imperfect human beings and by design will make mistakes.

I used to have near photographic memory and only had to read anything once and had perfect recall (My job required on the spot recall of countless CA state H&S codes, Title 22 regs and applicable electrical/fire codes, federal CFRs in writing my citations) but as I approached retirement, memory began to fade to where I catch myself making mistakes and incorporated additional QC checks to my reloading process.

If you have any doubts, pull the rounds. If you don't, shoot 'em.

Certain treatments like chemo can take a competent hand loader and make them a total failure.... I without a doubt trusted my dad's loads until I ran a bunch of 9 he ran in treatment and 33% didn't even have powder..... made me make changes to my plans, if your home sick don't load...

 

[StrykerByte.45]

High recoil does not mean it is a 'proof load'. A proof load is defined by very high peak chamber pressure. You can get high recoil from a load that is within normal operating pressure limits, and the Blue Dot load appears to be within normal pressure limits, as it is within load data from Speer for a 200 grain bullet, and data from Lyman for their 200 and 225 grain lead bullets. It's not a proof load, but it might produce high recoil if it pushes the bullet fast enough.

Yep that load is in the 45 super range but a low 45 super range. Probably between 26,000 and 30,000PSI. Not high pressure at all but It will probably be a high power factor and produce more recoil than a factory. 45 auto can handle without modification.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Yep that load is in the 45 super range but a low 45 super range. Probably between 26,000 and 30,000PSI. Not high pressure at all but It will probably be a high power factor and produce more recoil than a factory. 45 auto can handle without modification.

You should be able to shoot it out of either one of your guns as long as you add a stronger recoil spring to handle the increased recoil. If you have a threaded barrel on either of those guns, you can also add a small compensator, like the thread protector type with the small holes and you will not need an extra power recoil spring if you have a compensator like that because they reduce about 10% of recoil and that should be enough.
So you can either increase your recoil spring strength, at a compensator, or add weight to your slide in order to reduce the recoil. Recoil. Or you can do any combination of two or three of those things.

 

[Charlie98]

Evidently,Sierra has revised their thinking on that:

So did Speer.

My first reloading manual, the Speer #11, gives a max load of Unique under a 230grn FMJ as 6.9grn... which I loaded for some years. My next Speer manual, #14, dropped that to 6.5grn Unique. I had already reduced my standard load to 6.5grn, anyway, and the change was no surprise... that was a heck of a load.

Point is, as technology progresses, testing methods improve as well... newer data is better data.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

So did Speer.

My first reloading manual, the Speer #11, gives a max load of Unique under a 230grn FMJ as 6.9grn... which I loaded for some years. My next Speer manual, #14, dropped that to 6.5grn Unique. I had already reduced my standard load to 6.5grn, anyway, and the change was no surprise... that was a heck of a load.

Point is, as technology progresses, testing methods improve as well... newer data is better data.

I stick to lower loads for my guns because I really don’t need the extra pressure and fps to punch paper.
If other people want to play with overloads and such, that’s up to them. I’m not the type to push dangerous practices. Not even potentially dangerous. But that’s just me.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I use 45 ACP minimum load data for my minimum, and I use 460. Roland maximum load data for my maximum. That is my range for my loads that I shoot through my Glock 30S that is modified. I call it a 45 Rowland.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

The real question is ARE THEY LAODED HOT LOL not a laughing matter but let me tell you hat I mean. According to some older reloading manuals as already posted, In a few of the new ones it is a little over charged as they show 8.2gr as the top load. Do you trust that there is 8.5gr EXACTLY is each one of those cartridges?

 

[dh1633pm]

Excellent point @Mr.Revolverguy. Big difference between the old manuals and the new. And thank you for your videos. I moved them from my ammo storage area to my reloading bench. Next time I load 45 ACP, I’ll tear them down.

 

[Riomouse911]

Excellent point @Mr.Revolverguy. Big difference between the old manuals and the new. And thank you for your videos. I moved them from my ammo storage area to my reloading bench. Next time I load 45 ACP, I’ll tear them down.

Better safe than sorry.

I wouldn’t shoot them through my V-16 .45 Super either. Not because the gun couldn’t handle it, but the .45 ACP cases might not. I wouldn’t want a case failure damaging my gun (or myself).

Stay safe.

 

[ms6852]

I believe you are making a wise decision by pulling the bullets. One also fails to realize that with over max loads, just because one's handgun handled several rounds that it shot does not guarantee that the next round won't turn your handgun into a fragmentation grenade.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

The real question is ARE THEY LAODED HOT LOL not a laughing matter but let me tell you hat I mean. According to some older reloading manuals as already posted, In a few of the new ones it is a little over charged as they show 8.2gr as the top load. Do you trust that there is 8.5gr EXACTLY is each one of those cartridges?

I think that the OP made it clear that the man knew what he was doing as a reloader. It really is only up to him to decide whether he can trust his father's handlers. He says that his father told him to shoot them in the winter. Obviously his father does not think that they are too dangerous for his son to handle.

Personally, I would not risk shooting those off even though my gun can handle loads up to max pressures. The reason for that is because I do not know the man and I wouldn't know if I could trust him. If I was in the OP shoes, and I did decide to shoot these off, I would break down a few of the rounds picked out randomly and I would verify that the powder charge is correct. Furthermore, I would weigh all of the rounds to ensure that there is no discrepancies. Only after doing this I would shoot the rounds

There is absolutely no shame in deciding to break down the rounds. That will be the smartest thing to do. You can always reload them, or just verify the powder charge or take out a couple of grains and reload them.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Better safe than sorry.

I wouldn’t shoot them through my V-16 .45 Super either. Not because the gun couldn’t handle it, but the .45 ACP cases might not. I wouldn’t want a case failure damaging my gun (or myself).

Stay safe.

I bet that 45 super is a very soft shooter in that gun. I'm sure that that gun is built to handle Max Pressure 45Super Handloads.(otherwise known as 460R). That gun would be perfect to hand load 200gr Xtreme Penetrators and 190gr Xtreme Defenders to 1400fps.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

I believe you are making a wise decision by pulling the bullets. One also fails to realize that with over max loads, just because one's handgun handled several rounds that it shot does not guarantee that the next round won't turn your handgun into a fragmentation grenade.

How exactly will a gun just blow up into hundreds of pieces all of the sudden after shooting hundreds of rounds of the same load? And with no tell-tale signs? I need to know so this doesn't happen to me.

 

[Riomouse911]

I bet that 45 super is a very soft shooter in that gun. I'm sure that that gun is built to handle Max Pressure 45Super Handloads.(otherwise known as 460R). That gun would be perfect to hand load 200gr Xtreme Penetrators and 190gr Xtreme Defenders to 1400fps.

It is a pretty soft shooter. It’s a 6” all stainless 1911 with a ported bull barrel so it is heavy, making recoil pretty soft for a cartridge generating 700-750 odd foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

460 Rowland is another step up; slightly different case dimensions, higher pressure, more energy (1,000+ fpe with Underwood loads) and a bit more recoil.

The V-16 will shoot standard .45 ACP, +P and Super loads with no changes. Bumping up to even higher pressure .460 level loads would probably require a buffer and an even stiffer recoil spring. With my luck, even with the changes it would probably start to batter the frame, peen the slide stop notch, etc. in short order.

I am good with maxing out with .45 Super loads in this gun, especially since it hadn’t been made for a while and any replacement gun or parts would be pricy. (GB has a few guns for sale, the used lowest priced one at $2k up to a customized gun where the seller is asking $3,900.) If I had a Glock conversion, or another still in production gun that didn’t cost a house payment to replace, the idea has merit.

Stay safe.

 

[LoonWulf]

If your asking would "I" shoot them, yep.

I haven't used Unique in the .45 ACP, but ive used it in .44 special and have compared it pretty close lol to Longshot which i have used in both. Those loads are "hot"for a lightly built, and or very lightly sprung gun. In the .45s ive had they would be moderate to heavy for the stock guns, and light for my modified.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

It is a pretty soft shooter. It’s a 6” all stainless 1911 with a ported bull barrel so it is heavy, making recoil pretty soft for a cartridge generating 700-750 odd foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

460 Rowland is another step up; slightly different case dimensions, higher pressure, more energy (1,000+ fpe with Underwood loads) and a bit more recoil.

The V-16 will shoot standard .45 ACP, +P and Super loads with no changes. Bumping up to even higher pressure .460 level loads would probably require a buffer and an even stiffer recoil spring. With my luck, even with the changes it would probably start to batter the frame, peen the slide stop notch, etc. in short order.

I am good with maxing out with .45 Super loads in this gun, especially since it hadn’t been made for a while and any replacement gun or parts would be pricy. (GB has a few guns for sale, the used lowest priced one at $2k up to a customized gun where the seller is asking $3,900.) If I had a Glock conversion, or another still in production gun that didn’t cost a house payment to replace, the idea has merit.

Stay safe.

Yeah that totally makes sense. I will probably tell myself the same thing but deep inside I will be punching myself to push it.
1911s have not done well with powerful 45 super loads, or 460 Roland. Steel on steel action tends to be hard on each other than steel on polymer. I have read about many 1911s that begin to deform after some time, but I don't know how many rounds of how much power exactly. When some people talk about 45super, they are specifically talking about loads that are similar to 460. Roland. Others are talking about loads that are similar to Underwood and Buffalo Bore factory loads.
I push my G30S to about the 35k PSI. It has handled it like a champ and is ready for more. But in the recent months I have come to realize that in terminal ballistics anything more powerful than Underwood 45super, or 450SMC if not very beneficial. What I need beyond that will be more weight. I will need a. Revolver in 45 Colt or 454 casull with 300 plus grain projectiles. A 255 grain doing 1100 fps and subsonic is pretty much perfect and powerful enough.

 

[Walkalong]

I think that the OP made it clear that the man knew what he was doing as a reloader. It really is only up to him to decide whether he can trust his father's handlers. He says that his father told him to shoot them in the winter. Obviously his father does not think that they are too dangerous for his son to handle.

His father told him to shoot them in the winter for a safety margin, but he also wrote too hot on the box, so if you trust him, follow that advise. I'd just pull them. Zero risk.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

His father told him to shoot them in the winter for a safety margin, but he also wrote too hot on the box, so if you trust him, follow that advise. I'd just pull them. Zero risk.

I'm a risk taker.

 

[ms6852]

How exactly will a gun just blow up into hundreds of pieces all of the sudden after shooting hundreds of rounds of the same load? And with no tell-tale signs? I need to know so this doesn't happen to me.

Guns are proofed to withstand a certain amount of pressure using a variety of loads to what the industry considers safe with max loads. If max loads are exceeded there is a possibility that micro tears and fractures may occur with "Too Hot" loads as was noted by the OP's father. With repeated use of too hot of a load, over time the fractures and tears begin to grow eventually weakening the firearm resulting in possible fragment of the gun at the weakest point.

Though his father might have shot the "too hot" loads without incident , we do not know what modifications were made to the firearm, we just assume. But he was smart enough to know to leave a note and again I assume, as a warning.

Also I don't know that it will blow up into hundreds of pieces, me using the word fragmentation grenade was just a metaphor.

 

[Riomouse911]

Yeah that totally makes sense. I will probably tell myself the same thing but deep inside I will be punching myself to push it.
1911s have not done well with powerful 45 super loads, or 460 Roland. Steel on steel action tends to be hard on each other than steel on polymer. I have read about many 1911s that begin to deform after some time, but I don't know how many rounds of how much power exactly. When some people talk about 45super, they are specifically talking about loads that are similar to 460. Roland. Others are talking about loads that are similar to Underwood and Buffalo Bore factory loads.
I push my G30S to about the 35k PSI. It has handled it like a champ and is ready for more. But in the recent months I have come to realize that in terminal ballistics anything more powerful than Underwood 45super, or 450SMC if not very beneficial. What I need beyond that will be more weight. I will need a. Revolver in 45 Colt or 454 casull with 300 plus grain projectiles. A 255 grain doing 1100 fps and subsonic is pretty much perfect and powerful enough.

The +P .45 Colt packs a punch. The .454 Casull with heavy bullets at near full-throttle can get pretty sharp in the SRH.

A couple of +P strength Ruger .45 Colts.



.454 Super Redhawk and 300 gr XTP mag over H-110 loads..



The .460 S&W has much more ooomph, but that huge X-frame Smith helps make its recoil surprisingly tolerable.

Stay safe.

 

[Blue68f100]

The GC was designed mainly for shooting target/BE loads, even though it came with a heavier recoil spring to shoot 230gr ball ammo if you wanted too. There are quite a few things than needs to be done for it to handle the heavier/hotter loads.

No way I would shoot those in a GC. I do have a 1911 that has been tricked out that could handle +P loads if I chose. But I prefer not to punish a gun that was not designed for it.

Pull them and done.

 

[Walkalong]

But I prefer not to punish a gun that was not designed for it.

Pull them and done.

This.

 

[Walkalong]

I'm a risk taker.

lol, knock yourself out, it's a free country.

 

[ballman6711]

How exactly will a gun just blow up into hundreds of pieces all of the sudden after shooting hundreds of rounds of the same load? And with no tell-tale signs? I need to know so this doesn't happen to me.

Guns are proofed to withstand a certain amount of pressure using a variety of loads to what the industry considers safe with max loads. If max loads are exceeded there is a possibility that micro tears and fractures may occur with "Too Hot" loads as was noted by the OP's father. With repeated use of too hot of a load, over time the fractures and tears begin to grow eventually weakening the firearm resulting in possible fragment of the gun at the weakest point.

Yes they are proofed to withstand much greater pressure than they are expected to be subjected to. How many times will they take that amount of overpressure? I don't know.

But, everytime you fire your gun you subject it to heat and pressure, and when that heat and pressure exceeds the design parameters you shorten the life of the gun. Depends on the individual gun, but it may take a lot of overpressure rounds or just a few before it fails, but at some point it will fail.

Take your risks, hopefully nobody gets hurt. I like my body parts where and how they currently are.

chris