Too much for home defense?

[Matt-J2]

I'm in an apartment. Set off a .45-70, and hit or miss, I'm going to put holes in my neighbor's homes, if not my neighbors.

Granted, lots of rounds are going to do that, but that doesn't mean I can't do better than .45-70.


And why would I be firing a dozen handgun rounds, but only one .45-70?

 

[Macpherson]

If your home is a medieval castle with stone walls, AND if your most likely home invader is a buffalo, moose or rhino, then yes. Otherwise I would go with a smaller caliber. Some might say theres no such thing as too much gun, but there are good reasons for using a smaller but equally effective round. Overpenetration issues aside, most 45-70 rifles are not designed for HD and won't be well suited to the task. Also, you should seriously consider what the effects of shooting that round in an enclosed space without ear protection would be; you'd be in less pain than the target, but only slightly.

 

[takhtakaal]

Now I begin to ask myself serious questions: what caliber for Land Sharks?

Since I can't find the original ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaKQJbSJx0

 

[Cosmoline]

And why would I be firing a dozen handgun rounds, but only one .45-70?

Much less chance of missing with the long gun.

My mantra has always been if my life is on the line I will use the biggest baddest weapon I have to defend it. I don't waste much time on secondary and tertiary concerns about "overpenetration" and whether the jury will like my underwear color. If your life is at risk all other considerations fall to the wayside and the single goal is to survive. If you are facing imminent and unlawful deadly force you must stop that force RIGHT NOW or die. There is no room for putzing around. So if you have a big mean hunting rifle and a little CCW piece, use the rifle!

Overpenetration issues aside, most 45-70 rifles are not designed for HD and won't be well suited to the task. Also

How so? There are many short, handy leverguns in .45-70. Using one for home defense is just a question of load selection.

without ear protection would be;

If you fire a handgun or 12 ga. in that space you'll lose some hearing as well. I fired a .357 in a room once and my ears were ringing for weeks. It's inevitable that you will have some damage. If your life is on the line your hearing is a secondary consideration.

 

[USPfan03]

while the longer gun is more accurate it also hinders the shooter in HD due to that same length that gives it the accuracy. I would recommend something more like this; http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/rifles_usc_general.html
Just seems like something more like this would be a better choice for HD, accurate but not so big that it becomes hindering in a house full of stuff. Personally I would have an mp5 for home defense if I could get one. Yeah you will lose some penetration but could fire 3 to 5 rounds accurately with a lot less recoil. Just my thoughts though.

 

[Tony50ae]

45/70 was standard U.S. infantry weapon at one time

The 45/70 was a standard infantry weapon at one time typically a 405 grain bullet poking along at about 1200fps. I bet that round still went through an enemy soldier no problem. The OP showed a hollow point though and a much lighter bullet. At 1900 fps I guess it would be still too much, though recenly here in Hawaii we had a guy chase down his ex girlfriend and beat her to death with the butt of a shotgun in broad daylight. He stood 6'2" and weighed nearly 340 pounds! I am betting that 300 grain hollowpoint bullet would be about perfect for him!

 

[Combatops1911]

ONLY IF YOU GET THIS MODEL:

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/Bushwacker2.jpg

 

[Cosmoline]

while the longer gun is more accurate it also hinders the shooter in HD due to that same length that gives it the accuracy

An 1895G is actually built to be easily manipulated in tight situations. Have you ever carried or used one? You might be surprised. It's actually easier to manipulate than the H&K faux subgun there. The H&K is 35" oal while the 1895G is 37" oal. The H&K has numerous snag points (magazine, skeletonized stock), while the Marlin has very few. Arguably the sights, but those can be altered easily.

I'm not saying the H&K is a poor choice, but given the two I'd grab the Marlin any day of the week. It's a wonderful feeling of security to have that level of power in hand.

 

[41magsnub]

I am reading this thread and having visions of clearing rooms in my house to get to an exit or a more suitable gun with my Shiloh Sharps and cringing!

yah.. I know about the levers but this what I think of when I think 45-70.

The Sharps is in the safe, other more practical guns are at hand!

 

[Eyesac]

Certainly wouldn't be my first choice and neither was 300WM... If it's all I had, sure.

 

[takhtakaal]

The Sharps is in the safe, other more practical guns are at hand!

That's easy for you to say, pal. You don't have a marauding buffalo herd to contend with in your house, now do you?

 

[Cosmoline]

I am reading this thread and having visions of clearing rooms in my house to get to an exit or a more suitable gun with my Shiloh Sharps and cringing

Hey it worked for Quigley ;-)

 

[KBintheSLC]

I really don't see the point in using this caliber for HD. If it is carnage and destruction you wish to deliver on your target, why not use a 12 gauge with some buckshot? That should quench your thirst for blood, while leaving distant neighbors out of it.

 

[takhtakaal]

Nah, it's the buffalo tongues we be wanting.

[

Just not this one, for sure.

 

[blackhawk2000]

I'm leaning towards the overpenetration side, but until someone shoots someone with it, or posts gelatin tests this is all just speculation.

 

[41magsnub]

That's easy for you to say, pal. You don't have a marauding buffalo herd to contend with in your house, now do you?

What's funny is there is a guy raising several head of buffalo a couple of miles up the road so that is not outside the realm of possibility!

 

[Cosmoline]

If it is carnage and destruction you wish to deliver on your target, why not use a 12 gauge with some buckshot? That should quench your thirst for blood, while leaving distant neighbors out of it.

I have to ask, if you don't plan on inflicting carnage and blood why would you shoot someone at all? Some folks here have a pretty weird idea about firearms. As if a handgun is some sanitized form of deadly force that's more acceptable. Of course a handgun still draws an awful lot of blood and screams, it just doesn't stop someone as effectively as the mighty .45-70 would.

If your life is on the line, you'd better use the biggest baddest weapon you have. If you have a 20mm cannon and can bring it into play, by all means do so. You are facing IMMINENT DEATH after all. Ideally you will have loaded the cannon with exploding rounds, but when the reaper is at hand it's long past time to worry about such things. You fight as hard as you can with as much as you've got or you die, period.

 

[KBintheSLC]

If your life is on the line, you'd better use the biggest baddest weapon you have. If you have a 20mm cannon and can bring it into play, by all means do so.

Please don't move to my neighborhood.

If this is true, the we should all arm ourselves with small tactical nukes. So when someone breaks in, we can just vaporize the entire block.

If you are defending your property and your life, then your weapon doesn't really need to extend much further than that. An AK47, or a 12 GA, or even a good handgun is the most I feel I would ever need to cover MY grounds.

 

[Cosmoline]

An AK47, or a 12 GA, or even a good handgun is the most I feel I would ever need to cover MY grounds.

An AK or 12 ga, loaded with FMJ or slugs, will "overpenetrate" as much as a .45-70.

If this is true, the we should all arm ourselves with small tactical nukes.

No, that would kill everybody. If you can't understand the difference between the minute and largely theoretical danger posed by a round passing through a body and continuing to tumble through some walls and the danger of a nuke or high explosives, you need to get out to the range some more.

 

[41magsnub]

No, that would kill everybody. If you can't understand the difference between the minute and largely theoretical danger posed by a round passing through a body and continuing to tumble through some walls and the danger of a nuke or high explosives, you need to get out to the range some more.

Careful there.. what if by some fluke he got hold of a small nuke and set it off at the range. Do you want that on your conscience? Do you?

 

[Cosmoline]

It looks like our friend at brass fetcher has done some evals on this, actually.

Here's the results of a 300 grain hotcor out of a guide gun:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/federal4570.html

You can see from the gel that this is a true man stopper. Nobody is going to keep going after THAT impact.

Penetrated 16" and out of the block, then 6" of polyester arresting material. 0.761" average diameter.

In comparison, the heavy wolf SP x39 penetrated the entire block about 5" of arresting material.

A Speer 240 grain HP .44 Magnum penetrated the entire block and about 8" of arresting material.

If you move to non-SP/HP rounds the overpentration gets much greater. Even the .45 ACP, loaded with a SWC, penetrated 10" of arresting material after passing through the gel

http://www.brassfetcher.com/45acpswc.html


So faced with the reality that a lot of rounds will "overpenetrate", I'll stay by my choice:

That'll do it.

Conventional wisdom about which firearms pose the greatest ovepentration concerns are often not confirmed by reality. Look at the mighty7.62x54R in a 180 grain SP loading. Surely THAT will penetrate five schools. Nope:

Single shot fired from 10' distance. Impacted at 2517 ft/sec and penetrated to 15.8" in gelatin and ~ 2.5" into a polyester bullet arresting box. Bullet was recovered at 113.4gr weight and 0.678" average diameter.

Or the 150 grain Ingman:

Single shot fired from 10' distance. Impacted at 2741 ft/sec and penetrated to 15.8" in gelatin and ~ 2.0" into a polyester bullet arresting box. Bullet was recovered at 103.4gr weight and 0.691" average diameter.

Then SURELY that big 203 grain loading must overpentrate! Nope, it didn't even make it out of the block:

Single shot fired from 10' distance. Impacted at 2251 ft/sec and penetrated to 14.2". Two fragments of 6.2gr and 13.9gr penetrated to 12.6" (uncorrected) and 12.8" (uncorrected) respectively.

 

[Matt-J2]

Yep, says what I knew all along, .45-70 is too much for my home.
I value my neighbor's lives too much. After it passes through the bad guy, there's only a foot or two of empty air, 2 sheets of drywall, and then the next apt. I'm certain the drywall has less ability to stop the round than that bullet arresting box.

Your home might be different, though. If folks just remember that the people around them are living breathing people, not Bad Guys, Juries or Lawsuits, we'll do all right.

 

[Cosmoline]

So what do you use instead?

 

[takhtakaal]

So what do you use instead?

I think we need to come up with a potato gun chambered in 15 lb. rubber-coated bowling ball. It won't overpenetrate anything, except maybe for paneling, dry wall, and ten pins.

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/mortar.html

 

[Cosmoline]

That would leave a serious bruise!