Top Military/Armies of history

[TheLastBoyScout]

Germany declared war on us out of a sense of solidarity with their Axis ally Japan. This was not necessary; after all, Japan didn't give Russia a "second front" when he invaded.

Admittedly, FDR wanted to smash Hitler more than he wanted to beat Japan, but without Hitler's declaration of war, it would have been hard to get a declaration against Germany; if such a declaration came at all, it would likely have come too late (after we beat Japan, giving Hitler enough time to finish off Russia, and possibly overrun Britain).

Even if the British held on long enough for us to deal with Japan and ride to the rescue, I wouldn't put great odds on an invasion of Western Europe without the Eastern front to serve as a sink for German resources.

 

[richyoung]

Wasn't it the French at Dien Bien Phu who left the message... "go tell the Spartans, today we shall do them honor?"


..that was mostly French Foriegn Legion, composed largely of ex-SS troops under assumed names - so actually more credit for the Germans, in a way.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Spartans
Didn't the Athenians kick their a$$?

The Athenians did kick Spartan butt on the Island of Pylos. The island's rocky terrain was unsuited for the Spartan hoplite. Light troops who were more agile was needed but the Spartans sent 3-400 hoplites there anyway. Well, the Athenians didn't quite know how to oust the Spartans. Then one careless Spartan started a camp fire which became a brushfire and removed all their cover. With the Spartans easily viewable, the Athenian peltasts (light infantry) swarmed them and prevailed.

Still the lesson of the necessity of light infantry was lost on both the Spartans and the Athenians who still relied primarily on hoplites and phalanx tactics.

However, this had little effect on the war. The Spartans whupped the Athenians. The two Scilian expeditions doomed many of Athens' soldiers/sailors/citizens. Even when Athens began to recover, a Spartan Admiral, Brasidas, (and Spartans weren't known for seafaring), tricked the Athenians to beach their ships and break for chow. The Spartans swooped down and captured the fleet and won the thirty-three year Peloponnesian War.

 

[T.Stahl]

Are you disputing the fact that the Wehrmacht was one of the greatest (1:1) fighting forces in history, or are you commenting on your fellow Germans?

I was commenting on the objectivity of the Americans vs the attitude of my fellow Germans.

 

[carebear]

I was commenting on the objectivity of the Americans vs the attitude of my fellow Germans.

Don't give us too much credit. It's easy to be a gracious winner.

When your side ended up on the losing end, it's easier to disassociate yourself by saying "well that was "the Nazis" that lost, not really us Germans".

Whatever floats their boat.

 

[Glenn Kelley]

Armies

Smokemaker,
Not sure what your point is about Dieppe.It is a good example of what it takes to convince a few generals that an undermaned frontal assault against heavy fortifications without the promised air support won't work.

The taking of Vimy Ridge in WW1 was a job that no one else was able to accomplish.Vimy is probably where we truly became a nation.

On D-Day the Canadians were the most successful at accomplishing their objectives. They beat the Germans best in Itally.

At the time of Vimy we were probably only 8 million,about 12 million by WW2.

 

[smokemaker]

Hey Glenn,
After a little reading up on WW1, and knowing the foul stink of Dieppe wasn't the fault of the men who fought and died there, I will totally concede. That and the longest sniper shot recorded just went to a canuck in Afganistan. (He was assigned to an American unit I believe)

Maybe it's because I like Alexander Kieths India Pale Ale so much, maybe it's because I live within 20 miles of Canada, or maybe, just maybe, you're right.

 

[Crownvicman]

I think the French Army of WWI deserves a little more respect.

 

[M99M12]

Crownvic...in what way?

 

[NMshooter]

The French Army did not lack "cran", they lacked sensible tactics.

You can't charge entrenched machineguns, and artillery will not get them all.

Bruce Gudmundsson's "Stormtroop Tactics" is an excellent book on the subject of WW1 fighting.

 

[LAK]

Smokemaker,

The French army of WW2 was no match for that of Germany; not on an individual troop level, armor, artillery, or air force. The Germans had opened with the first really organized and effective mechanized infantry tactics in history. The French never stood a chance, as neither did Belgium nor Holland. Were Britain not an island it would have undoubtably have fallen as well.

 

[Crownvicman]

M99M12, the British made the same type of stupid charges during the first World War. But the French, by their numbers and willingness to actually try and defend their homesoil (something they were not willing to due during WWII) were the backbone of the Allies of WWI. When the AEF went to France, they used French tanks, airplanes, artillery pieces and horrible French machine guns. The destruction of WWI was terrible. The Germans surrendered in 1918 because they didn't want the kind of destruction that had been inflicted on France to happen to their own country. Of course, that lack of destruction allowed the Germans to convince themselves they didn't really lose WWI and had been betrayed by someone. But I'm getting off topic.

 

[middy]

Glenn,

I have to step in and give props to the Canadians, too. Some exceptional accomplishments by units and some very impressive individual soldiers have come from the Great White North.

*sigh*

Where have you gone, Red Ensign?

 

[Rico567]

In being around guns and gunners for over 40 years (as fine a bunch, taking one thing with another, as the human race produces) I have learned not to expect consensus, so the variety of responses was perhaps no surprise. I think that the criterion is too broad, and that is why so many lists of armies have proliferated that do little to enlighten. (I don't mean to imply that all the armies I've seen weren't good, but....) Instead, I'm going to set up my own criteria, then pick the army (singular) that I think best fits.

I'm going to pick an army, that was a highly trained and cohesive fighting force that was not only motivated but had a very flexible and redundant command and control structure that allowed units that had taken horrible casualties to still function with great effectiveness. This army had a highly competent, and sometimes brilliant officer corps that led with great effectiveness. This army also had generally superior technology compared with most of the technology it faced. Finally, this army inflicted enormous casualties on its opponents.

Any guesses?

And the winner is- The German Wehrmacht 1939-1945.

{Note: my criteria have nothing to do with whether or not the army selected won a particular battle or war or not, nor do they explore the government, ideology, or circumstances that do not pertain to the purely military....so please spare me any comments that they lost WWII, or that the Nazi regime was among the most despicable and inhuman in history. These things are surely true, but irrelevant in this context.}

 

[slzy]

everyone should read or re-read Vimy Ridge. the New Model Army was splendid,and Hannibal should get his props.

 

[GoRon]

This is just a parenthetical break to say how much I have enjoyed this thread.

Please don't mind me, continue on....