Top police gun prone to accidental firing

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I holster and un holster my Glock at least once every day. I load and unload at least once everyday. I never place my finger on the trigger or near the trigger during this process. I realize the consequences of becoming careless or complacent during this procedure. At the very least a failure to follow this would be tremendously embarrassing and at the worst fatally tragic.
 
Glock's aggresive marketing has more to do with why they are used by so many police departments then any other factor. We traded our S&W 5906s for Glock 21s for the same cash price it would have cost to replace the night sights on the Smiths. That is the only reason we have the Glocks. It was a way to get the bigger caliber without the financial outlay. We were facing replacement of all the night sights anyway, so it allowed us to have .45s for the same money.

That said, the Glock, like every other firearm is as safe as the user makes it. If you pull the trigger before you are ready to shoot, it will fire.

The newspaper is arguing for a technological solution to a training problem...we all know how well that usually works out. :rolleyes:

Jeff
 
I don't like Glocks, never have (I got to shoot one of the 1st ones in the country). But, as others have pointed out, these are almost all operator errors.

My favorite was the Stupidvisor in my old agency who bought a Glock, qualified with it, loaded it, and put it back in the box - you know, the box with the big sticker that said "DON'T PUT A LOADED GUN IN HERE". He then put the box in the trunk of his GOV vehicle. When he slammed the trunk lid, the gun went BANG, and shot through the back of the trunk & hit him in the leg. He deserved it!
 
I gotta admit that regardless of how well the safety between your ears is working,i prefer a gun that has a manual safety that has to be consciously released before shooting.If i ever carried my 21 (which i wouldnt) there wouldnt be a round in the chamber until im ready to pull the trigger.Young kids have been killed by loaded chamber Glocks and we all know it.They may not have died in the same situation if the gun was an XD or 1911 or Hi-Power for that matter.
 
The Glock is often billed as a great gun for novices. It is not.
A Glock was the first handgun I ever fired or owned. Never had a problem with it. It is a great handgun for a novice who is very conscientious about safety.

those self professed DELTA/SEAL/IPDA/CIA Snipers here
Hey, you left out us Ninja Secret Berets!
 
TropicalZ- well I carry a Glock 30 everyday and it doesn't bother me a bit. I use a good holster that covers the trigger guard completely and I damn well keep my trigger finger away from the trigger when holstering and un-holstering.
Yes I agree that the best safety is the one between the users ears, but I have to disagree on the use of this example:

'Young kids have been killed by loaded chamber Glocks and we all know it'

for one simple reason. It's the owners responsibility to secure the weapon when it's not in their direct control. Would a revolver be any safer than a Glock if found by a child? The lack of a manual safety on the Glock doesn't even come into play in your example. Sure they may not have died if the firearm in question had a manual safety but I'd be more concerned with the fact that I'd left an UNSECURED LOADED FIREARM out where children could have access to it.

edited: Forgot to add that absolutely I carry one in the chamber. If the bad guy somehow get the jump on me, I'm already WAY behind the reaction curve. Having to rack the slide to chamber a round will simply put me further down a progressingly bad situation. My $.02
 
i prefer a gun that has a manual safety that has to be consciously released before shooting.
Don't like revolvers too much, eh? :)

I thought one of the reasons LEOs went to Glocks is because their operation most closely follows that of a revolver (ie aim at BG, put finger on trigger, pull trigger, Bang!), making the transition from wheel guns to autoloaders easier and safer.
 
I should have clarified that i prefer a manual safety on my semi autos.A revolver in many situations WOULD be safer than a Glock if found by a child simply because of the finger strength needed to pull the trigger.If a three year old doesnt know how to place a double action revolver into single action they may not be able to discharge the gun.Same logic goes for a single action revolver.
 
Hkmp5sd said;

I thought one of the reasons LEOs went to Glocks is because their operation most closely follows that of a revolver (ie aim at BG, put finger on trigger, pull trigger, Bang!), making the transition from wheel guns to autoloaders easier and safer.

Not really. The big changeover occurred in the late 80s and early 90s. Smith and Wesson 3d Generation Auto, Beretta 92 series and HK all made pretty big inroads into LE service. Glock started their big campaign to be number 1 in the US LE market in the mid 90s. They literally swapped 1 for 1 with several large agencies. This was a good deal for their distrubtors as they took in a lot of good condition standard capacity autos with usually 3 or more verified pre-ban standard capacity magazines in trade. In some cases the pre-ban mags were worth as much as the weapon. An unintended consequence of the AWB.

Jeff
 
Now El-Tejon, you know it was because the sheeple (epecially the ones who worked in administration ;)) could see the cocked hammer on the 1911. Out of sight out of mind with the Glock. That's if they even knew how the Glock action works to start with....

Jeff
 
Glock made its inroads into LE by offering substantial discounts and by touting all of it's internal safety features. Not only is it safe, but you don't even have to THINK about the safety. This is like airbags and ABS systems in cars. The object is so safe that people feel more comfortable doing stupid things with them.

I know a cop that carries his Glock without a holster. He should know better because he personally knows another cop that shot herself by, ahem, holstering her Glock in the front of her pants.

Y'all knew it was just a matter of time. The next gun will be one with a 12 pound trigger AND a safety: probably a Sig, who will then be sued because the SAFETY didn't work. <seething sarcasm>Not that an officer would forget to engage it.

Of course with all of those safety features some silly officer might feel comfortable just handing a loaded gun to a class full of schoolchildren. Nah, that's just ridiculous.</seething sarcasm>
 
Training is the answer to these NEGLIGENT discharges not a new gun. Glocks are an excellent pistol for a novice and for the rank and file. Just teach them to keep their finger off the trigger. 1911's are more a experts handgun. I have no real use for all the da sa or dao guns.
Pat
 
Awesome, a new insulting Glock term I didn't invent.

"Glock leg" the pseudo-gang limp developed by Glock owners who self-perforate.

"Glogic" Moronic sub-argument used by Glocksters. see "No finger no boom."

"My gun Glocked" Jam.


GHB
 
I'm familiar with two University/Collge police departments safety records for the last 10 or so years. One accidental discharge and self-wounding, with a Beretta 92. No AD's with current issue Glocks. Seems a training not a tech issue. :rolleyes:
 
We have two instances, one involving an "experienced gun handler", in which both individuals had loaded Glocks "tucked" into their waistbands. This begs the question, were these weapons in a holster, or were they carried mexican-style, which is frowned upon by Glock inc. and any intelligent firearms instructor, unless carrying with an empty chamber as some folks do. (Glock's fault, or prehaps a poor choice of carry mode given the pistol's manual of arms?)

We have another instance involving an officer cleaning a "loaded" Glock in another room, resulting in the shooting of his roomate. (Glocks fault, or the fault of the officer for not following proper procedures and the manual's directions by unloading the pistol and clearing the chamber prior to cleaning and maintenance?)

We have another instance in which it would appear that the officer attempted to reholster his weapon with his finger indexing the trigger. (Glocks fault, or the fault of the officer for not following remedial gun safety rules by keeping his finger clear of the trigger if not intending to fire the weapon?)

In yet another questionable incident, we have an officer attempting to handcuff a suspect with one hand, while still holding a loaded weapon, and his weapon discharges. It seems most officers either holster their weapons first, or another officer is covering the suspect while a fellow officer handcuffs the perp. This could also potentially pose a weapons retention problem should the BG resist, as the officer only has one hand controlling the pistol vs. reholstering his weapon and applying the retention strap. (Again, is this Glocks fault, or that of the officer?)

Additionally, instead of capitalizing on the inherently dangerous design as this article indicates, several manufacturers are now utilizing a "Glock like" trigger mechanism. This includes Sig (DAK or K trigger), HK (LEM), Walther (Quick Action), Kahr (light DAO), and the Springfield XD (USA trigger), Para-Ordnance (LDA)........Only two have a safety, the XD and the Para, and IIRC, both utilize a 1911 style grip safety. I would suspect that other manufacturers would shy away from this type of MOA if it were really a safety issue, instead of negligence on the part of the end user seemingly resulting in the majority of these incidents.

The Glock should be carried in the manner in which it's intended to be carried eg: a quality holster covering the trigger gaurd. A heavier trigger can be used if the department or individual so chooses. Proper unloading and cleaning procedures must be followed eg: ejecting the mag and clearing the chamber. Safe firearms practices MUST be followed eg: keeping one's finger clear of the trigger. One must become familiar and train with it's unique MOA, just like one has to train to master the DA/SA transition on a TDA pistol, learn to safely manipulate the 1911 or BHP, or become at ease with the HK P7 and it's squeeze cocking mechanism, ect. ect......Hmmmm, all of the above applies to ALL firearms doesn't it?

Speaking on keeping one's finger off of the trigger while covering a BG or reholstering, there are some interesting examples involving pistols with differing MOA's. At Front Sight's training facility, they have recorded two incidents of ND's. One involved a Sig P229 in which the user forgot to decock prior to reholstering "with his finger on the trigger." This resulted in him shooting himself in the leg. Now, not only did this individual not adhere to his pistols MOA by decocking, but he also violated a major safety rule by having his finger on the trigger in the first place. Should he have sued Sigarms?

The other, involved a 1911 which the user did not "on safe" prior to reholstering, in addition to having a holster not compatible with his pistol, which allowed for an inner piece of material to engage the trigger when he attempted to shove the gun in. This resulted in a bullet through his foot. Should he have sued the maker of the 1911 or the holster company, for not applying the safety on his pistol as it's MOA and design dictates for safe operation?

Yet another example, is the female LVMPD officer who was covering a suspect with her finger on the trigger of a DA Beretta 92, when it discharged, luckily missing both the BG and her partner. Should she sue Beretta for having her finger on the trigger during a stressful encounter resulting in the ND of her weapon?

It would be nice to see some folks take responsibility for their own actions, be they right or wrong, much like they used to do. Unfortunately, that does not seem like it will happen, as folks would rather divert blame, save themselves embarassment and teasing, avoid the legal ramifications of their actions, ect......

jnb01
 
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jnb01 -

You make a good point, and you cite three good examples of operator error with weapons other than Glocks. It is a good reminder that no weapon is immune from operator error.

Yet, in the current thread (and other threads/sources) we consistently see many, many more examples of operator error with Glocks than with other weapons (and no, it is proportinate to use). It begs the question: is the Glock with its relatively short and light trigger pull more prone to operator error by design than many of the other handguns available? If it is (and heartily believe it is) there is still no excuse for operator error, but by the same token, it ould behoove us as shooters (and particularly those who train others) to acknowledge it might be a somewhat more prone to operator error than other designs and deal accordingly.
 
jc2 -

Glocks by design, are indeed less forgiving of human error or unsafe practices, and their MOA begs them to be carried in a certain manner if loaded, ect. However, that in no way makes the design itself inherently dangerous, maybe not for everyone or the remedial enthusiast, but certainly not unsafe in properly trained hands. The bottom line seems to be, human error accounts for the vast majority of unfortunate "accidental firings" involving Glock pistols, as evidenced by the incidents cited in the referenced article. I for one, would certainly never carry a loaded Glock unholstered in my waistband. Additionally, I've made it an ingrained habit to check the chamber of any pistol 3 and sometimes 4 times after dropping the mag, prior to cleaning.

As far as keeping one's finger off of the trigger irrespective of pull weight or length of travel to discharge, IIRC, it was Mark Garrity in a thread at ammolabforum who referenced a study that found the average adult male could exert upwards of something like 20 or 30-lbs. of pressure with their index finger while under stress.

jc2, out of curiousity, what is your prefered pistol?

Best, jnb01
 
Although I've never heard of "Glock leg", I wholeheartedly approve of any attempt to inject levity into the AD vs. ND jihad. The problem is, people without a Glock can, and regularly do, catch the dreaded "Glock leg". So, If I may offer a humble suggestion, perhaps "Darwin Leg" would suffice. ;)

El Tejon,
*Sigh* Only here.

I'm afraid not. Judging by how long I had to wait for delivery, back when I ordered my LDA, its far from only there...
 
jnb01 -
Glocks by design, are indeed less forgiving of human error or unsafe practices, and their MOA begs them to be carried in a certain manner if loaded, ect.
Equals "more prone to operator error?"
However, that in no way makes the design itself inherently dangerous, maybe not for everyone or the remedial enthusiast, but certainly not unsafe in properly trained hands.
I really was not talking about design itself is inherently dangerous, BUT the design (some of the very features that make it a good weapon and to train beginners to shoot well) lend themselves to operator error--particularly in less than expert (i.e., less paranoid) or fatigued/rushed hands.
The bottom line seems to be, human error accounts for the vast majority of unfortunate "accidental firings" involving Glock pistols, as evidenced by the incidents cited in the referenced article.
I do agree it is human error, but the question remains is the Glock more prone to human error than some designs. The record tends to indicate it is.
As far as keeping one's finger off of the trigger irrespective of pull weight or length of travel to discharge,
I agree with you except we need to consider a longer/heavier trigger pull will give the average human more time to react (to think "UH OH!") and stop the action--couple that with the aural and visual feedback of a hammer moving to the rear and a cylinder rotating (with a revolver) tends to give a whole lot more clues that something bad is about to happen. I was trained long before "keep the finger of the trigger" training (actually in the very, very early days of "use of force" training), and I have heard more than one "war story" where the hammer was already moving back (or "I had already started to pull the trigger") when the situation was resolved without shots being fired--the Glock does not give that extra "cushion."

I'm not really disagreeing with you jnb01--just "thinking out loud." FWIW, the only weapon I carry regularly anymore is a Glock 26 (that finally replaced my Detective Special). It does have a NY1 trigger spring however (before I ever loaded it).
 
The weak link in the system is the human being. Always has been and always will be.

The patrol car has redundant safety systems (seat belts and airbags) to protect the officer from his mistakes. Why shouldn't weapons designers also recognize the human element? I realize that we are all expected to be perfect, but the truth is that none of use will ever live up to that ideal.

There have been some notable FA incidents with 1911's that didn't even require a single parts swap. Just a botched amature trigger job.

Regards,
Happyguy:D
 
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