Tracking Firearms Sale Paperwork by Owner

[DanTheFarmer]

Good Afternoon,

I entered into an on-line discussion regarding the Las Vegas shooting. Someone in the discussion asked to question "How could he buy so many guns and not raise any red flags?". I replied that there was no tracking of legal sales to retail customers so there would be no way to raise a red flag even if someone wanted to.

I'm asking that the discussion be limited to legally purchased firearms bought from a legitimate retail operation. I'm looking for the current state of the bureaucratic procedures, not what they "should" be.

As I've done a bit more research it looks like I'm partially right and partially wrong.
1. Form 4473 is held by the FFL for 20 years in his bound book and is available for inspection by the ATF.
2. Form 3310.4 is for multiple pistol or revolver sales and is reported to the ATF and kept by the FFL for 5 years.
3. The ATF has a National Tracing Center to respond to requests to track the history of a firearm from the manufacturer, to distributor, to retailer, to first retail buyer.

These all seem to be following the firearm. It doesn't seem like it is possible to do a comprehensive track by owner.

O.k. experienced firearms board contributors, what paperwork is completed when a firearm is sold in a retail environment, who keeps the paperwork, can this paperwork track by owner, can it be modified to track by owner?

Thanks for any input.

Dan

 

[pintler]

I'm going to answer a related question: "Is it practical to prevent a mass killing by looking at people who buy N guns in M months". For example, if the LV whacko needed 6 rifles to avoid overheating the barrels, could you watch for people who buy 6 guns in 6 months.

And the answer is that, yes, you could watch for that. But unfortunately, 99.9999% of people who buy 6 guns in 6 months are doing so for perfectly innocuous reasons. And, even if we decide to hire the large number of investigators to go knock on doors, what will that do? If an agent had knocked on the LV whacko's door a month ago, LVW would have come up with some plausible explanation - 'I just like AR's', 'I'm worried about a future ban', etc, etc.

It's the same problem as a medical test that is 100% effective at finding cancer or whatever, but gives 999 false positives for every actual case.

 

[Sam1911]

A buyer of any modern firearm at a licensed FFL dealer fills out the Federal Form 4473. A copy of that form goes in to the dealer's files and must be kept for 20 years.

Federally and in most of the states that is all there is to it, aside from calling in The Brady check, the small bit of data required for which is to be dumped from the federal records in a very short period of time.

So aside from the multiple pistols and revolvers form there really isn't any tracking of individuals purchasing firearms.



The tracing of firearms using that paperwork happens like this:.

If a firearm is recovered or discovered at a crime scene or during an investigation, the investigators holding that firearm may contact the manufacturer of that firearm give them the serial number and model and ask them to report when and to what distributor it was sold. That will lead them to a distributor who can then tell them what retailer bought it from the distributor. Then the retailer (FFL dealer) is contacted and if he still has the paperwork from that year, he or she can look up who purchased that firearm and what their address was and their physical description.

Going to a dealer or a manufacturer or any other point along the chain and obtaining the purchase record for a firearm that was sold to a person can tell an investigator absolutely nothing about what other firearms that person might own.

There is no mechanism by which any person can pick a name of a citizen and do any practical amount of research which would tell them what guns that person owns or how many

 

[CapnMac]

There is no mechanism by which any person can pick a name of a citizen and do any practical amount of research which would tell them what guns that person owns or how many

If I'm not mistaen, that's codified into at least 2 parts of USC and several CFR, both specifically and by inference.

 

[CapnMac]

One of the other problems the LV shooting will encounter is that our presumptive shooter had large sums of cash available to hand on a routine basis. Which menat he was just as able to go buy what was wanted for "dude behind the bowling alley" as an FFL.

No law ever enacted in the US has ever curbed the illegal dealers in any contraband. Limited, perhaps--an argument of split ahirs we probably need no part of here--but never curbed.

 

[ontarget]

The feds are supposed to destroy or delete any BGC info they receive in a short amount of time. If they were allowed to keep that info it would be registration by default with the exception of long guns in free states that can be sold by citizens without any paperwork.

 

[Captcurt]

O.k. experienced firearms board contributors, what paperwork is completed when a firearm is sold in a retail environment, who keeps the paperwork, can this paperwork track by owner, can it be modified to track by owner?

Thanks for any input.

Dan

When the background check is called in, the name, address, as well a description of the firearm( long gun, hand gun or receiver) are taken by the FBI. However, they do not have the serial number, make or model. Those are in the dealer's possession. All they know is so-and-so bought a firearm.

This is if the buyer didn't have a Canceled Carry Permit. In my state it not mandatory to call in a background check on a permit holder.

 

[medalguy]

And it's possible that after a NICS check has been approved, the seller could decide not to sell to the buyer for any reason, or the buyer could change his mind and decide not to purchase that particular firearm. So, the number of NICS checks does not equal the number of sales for many reasons.

 

[drk1]

Hello and thanks for the questions. You have covered most of the basics, but there are a couple of other minor points you might find interesting.
First, you correctly note that there is a multiple hand gun purchase form -- ATF Form 3310.4 -- that is "supposed" to be completed when anyone purchases more than one handgun. However, it's not quite that simple. For example, what if a person buys a pistol on Monday and goes back on Friday and buys another one? Yes, in this case, the Form 3310.4 is "supposed" to be filled out. But what happens when the person buys a handgun at a big box store from one clerk on Monday and at the same store but a different clerk on Friday? Unless the buyer knows about the law and says something to the clerk, it has been my experience that the requirement is overlooked. What about the case where the same person buys two hand guns within five business days from two different stores? In this case, the only way the seller would know that the buyer had purchased a second handgun would be if the buyer tells him/her about the first one. How often do you suppose that happens? And then there is that little provision about sending the second copy of the form to the local law enforcemment agency. What do you think the local sheriff or police department does with unsolicited faxes coming in to them? It might be interesting to ask your local LEO what he/she does with these forms. While discussing the issue of multiple handgun purchases, we should also remember that severeal years ago the state of Virginia limited the purchase of handguns to 1 a month. That law was abolished in 2012, (I believe) by a Republican state house and Republican governor. The current governor of Virginia, a Democrat and long-time Clintonista who has been rumored to be considering a run for the White House, wants to reinstate that law. Other states have a variety of laws that have some impact on taking possession of a handgun. In New York, for example, it is my understanding that both the hand gun owner be licensed and individual handguns be added to the list of those registered to each license holder. So, if a person buys more than one handgun at a time, it would be noted by the local law enforcement folks on that person's handgun registration record.

Second, there is reporting of some multiple rifle purchases. In 2011, the feds created the "Southwest Border Firearms Trafficking/Violence Initiative," which requires a form similar to the one for handguns for all multiple long gun sales in California, Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico. Unfortunately, the same complications occure here as with the multiple handgun form. At the time this was created, it was touted as part of the effort to address the Mexican gang/drug problem. But then this was coming from the same folks that brought us "Fast and Furious," so there were serious doubts about the purpose from the beginning.

One last point to be made is that while the feds aren't supposed to be keeping track of individual purchases, they apparently have an idea regarding the overall sales volume by individual dealers. There have been several news stories over the past several years about local gun shops coming under scrutiny because of the number of sales and/or the number of guns that have been involved in crimes. In at least one case, the local gun shop owner called ATF to report his suspicions about people making multiple purchases, a case was begun and a prosecution resulted. Hope this helps fill in some of the gray areas concerning multiple firearms purchases.

 

[BearBrimstone]

This may differ by state, but Tennessee most certainly takes the serial number of the firearm when running a background check. I tried to buy a used pistol at a Nashville shop a few years ago and the guy had to stop the transaction because the system told him that the pistol was coming up stolen. Law enforcement came by to pick up the pistol while I was there and everything.

 

[Sunray]

"...Form 4473 is held by the FFL for 20 years..." They're held by the ATF too. Despite what they say. It's how they knew who had purchased .223 calibre rifles when those criminals were shooting up the DC area in 2002. It's defacto firearm registration put in place by unelected civil servants making law by regulation.
"...The ATF has a National Tracing Center..." It's part of the ATF's defacto firearm registration system too. Very likely to be unconstitutional.
"...a firearm is sold in a retail environment..." Other than U.S. Federal laws, I believe that depends on the State. Nevada, despite the nonsense seen on certain cops and robbers TV shows, has no State registration of firearms.
"...the illegal dealers..." And other such criminals don't care what the laws say.
In any case, the number of firearms a person owns is really irrelevant to anything. And 42 isn't a lot. Had a customer in the store I worked in long ago who owned over 100 assorted rifles. The guy never shot any of 'em. He was a pure collector who on first meeting him you'd think there's no way this guy does or should own any firearm.

 

[Sam1911]

"...Form 4473 is held by the FFL for 20 years..." They're held by the ATF too. Despite what they say. It's how they knew who had purchased .223 calibre rifles when those criminals were shooting up the DC area in 2002. It's defacto firearm registration put in place by unelected civil servants making law by regulation.
"...The ATF has a National Tracing Center..." It's part of the ATF's defacto firearm registration system too. Very likely to be unconstitutional.

We hear this stuff repeated all the time, but never with any concrete evidence to point to.

 

[2bfree]

"...Form 4473 is held by the FFL for 20 years..." They're held by the ATF too. Despite what they say. It's how they knew who had purchased .223 calibre rifles when those criminals were shooting up the DC area in 2002.

No, They knew what FFL the guns went to (The Bullseye in Tacoma WA) but the guns were sold out the back door by an employee. The owner lost his FFL although the store is still there under different ownership.

 

[dogtown tom]

Hello and thanks for the questions. You have covered most of the basics, but there are a couple of other minor points you might find interesting.
First, you correctly note that there is a multiple hand gun purchase form -- ATF Form 3310.4 -- that is "supposed" to be completed when anyone purchases more than one handgun. However, it's not quite that simple. For example, what if a person buys a pistol on Monday and goes back on Friday and buys another one? Yes, in this case, the Form 3310.4 is "supposed" to be filled out. But what happens when the person buys a handgun at a big box store from one clerk on Monday and at the same store but a different clerk on Friday? Unless the buyer knows about the law and says something to the clerk, it has been my experience that the requirement is overlooked.

The buyer has nothing to do with filling out the Multiple Sale form..........that's for the dealer only.

What about the case where the same person buys two hand guns within five business days from two different stores?

No Federal law/ATF regulation requires a Multiple Sale form because the firearms weren't bought from the same store. Read the instructions.

In this case, the only way the seller would know that the buyer had purchased a second handgun would be if the buyer tells him/her about the first one. How often do you suppose that happens?

Happens every day with no issues. because this isn't an issue.

And then there is that little provision about sending the second copy of the form to the local law enforcemment agency. What do you think the local sheriff or police department does with unsolicited faxes coming in to them? It might be interesting to ask your local LEO what he/she does with these forms.

Well, if the local PD reads the back of their copy they sure as heck know they're required to keep them on file for at least six months.

Second, there is reporting of some multiple rifle purchases. In 2011, the feds created the "Southwest Border Firearms Trafficking/Violence Initiative," which requires a form similar to the one for handguns for all multiple long gun sales in California, Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico. Unfortunately, the same complications occure here as with the multiple handgun form.

I's not the least bit complicated unless you haven't read the instructions on the form.

One last point to be made is that while the feds aren't supposed to be keeping track of individual purchases, they apparently have an idea regarding the overall sales volume by individual dealers.

Not really. The only time ATF asks "how many firearms have you transferred in the last year" is when the dealers FFL is up for renewal. Being that the renewal occurs every three years the ATF doesn't have any earthly idea how many guns I transferred in the previous years.

There have been several news stories over the past several years about local gun shops coming under scrutiny because of the number of sales and/or the number of guns that have been involved in crimes. In at least one case, the local gun shop owner called ATF to report his suspicions about people making multiple purchases, a case was begun and a prosecution resulted.

Sure, a dealer who gets a gun trace request every week and has numerous "crime guns" traced back to him incurs closer scrutiny than a dealer with one trace a year.
But sheer volume of sales? No.

Hope this helps fill in some of the gray areas concerning multiple firearms purchases.

I think you may not know as much about multiple sales as you think.

 

[dogtown tom]

"...Form 4473 is held by the FFL for 20 years..." They're held by the ATF too. Despite what they say.

Hogwash.
Since the dealer keeps the Form 4473 for twenty years (or until he goes out of business) there is NO WAY for ATF to have those Form 4473's until then.
I have 11,000 Form 4473's that ATF has never seen.

It's how they knew who had purchased .223 calibre rifles when those criminals were shooting up the DC area in 2002. .

Nonsense.
The Bushnaster AR was stolen from a gunshop in Tacoma, WA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks

It's defacto firearm registration put in place by unelected civil servants making law by regulation

Good grief.
Do you have any idea what the Gun Control Act of 1968 REQUIRES? No, you don't. If you stopped ranting about "unelected civil servants" long enough you might get a clue.
And filling out a Form 4473 isn't anywhere close to "registration". If you doubt me ask a Californian.

"...The ATF has a National Tracing Center..." It's part of the ATF's defacto firearm registration system too. Very likely to be unconstitutional.

No, it isn't.
Nothing in the Constitution prohibits ATF or any law enforcement agency from calling the manufacturer>distributor>dealer> first buyer/transferee and asking "who did you transfer that gun to?"

"...a firearm is sold in a retail environment..." Other than U.S. Federal laws, I believe that depends on the State. Nevada, despite the nonsense seen on certain cops and robbers TV shows, has no State registration of firearms.

True!
The overwhelming majority of states have no firearm registration laws AND NEITHER DOES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

....In any case, the number of firearms a person owns is really irrelevant to anything. And 42 isn't a lot. Had a customer in the store I worked in long ago who owned over 100 assorted rifles. The guy never shot any of 'em. He was a pure collector who on first meeting him you'd think there's no way this guy does or should own any firearm.

Absolutely true.

 

[Crawdad1]

A buyer of any modern firearm at a licensed FFL dealer fills out the Federal Form 4473. A copy of that form goes in to the dealer's files and must be kept for 20 years.

What happens to the form after 20 years? Is it sent to be archived by the federal government or simply destroyed by the dealer? I mean the dealer only has so much room for forms.

 

[Sam1911]

After 20 years the paper may be destroyed.

If the dealer goes out of business before 20 years has passed he's required to send the forms to the ATF.

 

[Crawdad1]

Thanks Sam.

 

[coloradokevin]

I'm going to answer a related question: "Is it practical to prevent a mass killing by looking at people who buy N guns in M months". For example, if the LV whacko needed 6 rifles to avoid overheating the barrels, could you watch for people who buy 6 guns in 6 months.

And the answer is that, yes, you could watch for that. But unfortunately, 99.9999% of people who buy 6 guns in 6 months are doing so for perfectly innocuous reasons. And, even if we decide to hire the large number of investigators to go knock on doors, what will that do? If an agent had knocked on the LV whacko's door a month ago, LVW would have come up with some plausible explanation - 'I just like AR's', 'I'm worried about a future ban', etc, etc.

It's the same problem as a medical test that is 100% effective at finding cancer or whatever, but gives 999 false positives for every actual case.

Yeah, this has been another imagined phenomenon created by the news. Since this shooting I've seen countless stories about "Why weren't authorities concerned when he bought X number of guns?"

Well, authorities weren't concerned for a few reasons:

1) It's not all that uncommon.
2) It's totally legal.
3) This guy had no background that would have prevented him from buying a gun (and no future law short of an outright ban could have stopped it, either).

I know we have a range of gun owners around here, from people who have just acquired their first gun, to those looking to buy a first gun, to people with collections in the thousands. I'll say this much, the gunman's collection was smaller than many collections owned by people I personally know. His collection was no more noteworthy than mine, and I'd argue less so.

 

[bassjam]

Here's a really long, but also really interesting article on the inner workings of the National Tracing Center in the ATF. It's a good read and worth your time if you are interested in this subject.

https://www.gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns

While they technically still don't have a computerized database of records, they still manage to collect a heck of a lot of information on us, have access to even more, and can still manage to track down pretty much anybody who's bought a gun through a dealer, which personally I find scary.

 

[boom boom]

Not to be a gloomy gus but commercial data on every aspect of you is being sold and is available to the highest bidder including .gov. What websites you visit, what comments you make, who you call, what emails you send, magazines and books purchased, what kind of purchases you make and where you make them, where you go if you have a cell or navigation system, how you are driving (black boxes in your newer model cars), how much cash you withdraw, automatic license plate scanners, instantaneous databases of govt records keyed to your SSN or driver's license, what drugs and medical records you have, and so on.

None of these except maybe the black box in your car currently trigger a warrant requirement and I am leaving out the NSA's jiggery pokery (Hi guys--wave) where you have incidental contact with a "known foreign agent" or with a person who had contact with that agent and so on. In most cases, absent the NSA and its interest in national security, it only requires an administrative subpoena to gather that data if they wish. They can tell even approximately when you are at home or at work and how many people are in your home by monitoring your electrical consumption.

To preserve your privacy in the U.S., you have to basically be a hermit or engage in very expensive and time consuming activities to become a ghost in the system and have some access to non-traceable cash. Or, simply live your life and don't worry too much about it and don't do illegal things.

The Stasi in East Germany wired apartment buildings, had massive informant roles, summary arrest, interrogations, and punishment on crimes, massive government files on everyone, etc. They lasted as long as ice cream on a sunny day when the Wall fell and people of that country felt it time for a change.

The truth is that too much data can paralyze analysis and propagate errors without some human judgment as well as generate false confidence of those doing the data collection. After each failure, their normal response is to double down and request even more information to keep from failing again which is like a gambler on a losing streak. Remember, government agencies and their employees are great about telling you in the media about success stories, not so good at telling you about embarrassing failures.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Listen to what Dogtown Tom has to say. He's absolutely right.

Now, the .gov has been caught keeping records of NICS inquiries that are supposed to be destroyed (deleted) after 24 hours. Nevertheless, that information only tells them that a given person filled out a 4473 on a certain date, and whether it was a handgun, long gun or other. Make, model, caliber and S/N are not transmitted, nor are the number of firearms sold (again, separate paper form for multiple handgun sales, no form for multiple long guns except border states), or even if the transaction was completed. Add to that the fact that private sales are unrestricted in most states, and even in many with "UBC" (we got saddled with that crap in '13), there is no registration, so even though a 4473 ostensibly exists for each transaction (yeah right!), there's no way of tracking it down without going through every single 4473 held by every FFL in the state (if the transaction even occurred in that state), which they cannot legally do even if they could logistically do it, so the trail ends with the first retail sale. They can only track down to that point, not the other way around.

 

[H&R Glock]

The media seems to harp on the question mostly asked by the relatives of a shooting victim.. How can we put a stop to this? Unfortunately both seem to forget that there were only 4 people in the world when one got murdered by another. It moved from rock to stick to arrow, etc. etc. There is no way.