Trail Boss and trap doors....

[fpgt72]

Now first off sitting in the vet so these numbers are off the top of my head.

I see the attraction to TB, but the pressure seems high over others. A light load is around 12 grains of TB...and pressure over 20k CUP....but the "oldies" are in the teens....I think varget and 4895 are in the low teens....but use 4X as much powder....all round numbers remember.

So in these 130+ year old guns I think pressure is better kept as low as possible. Am I off base here.

I have been reloading for about 20 years now and never looked twice at TB... thought it was a good cowboy powder...I don't see it past using less of it.

 

[troy fairweather]

imr4198 and 5744.

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree, Trail Boss is a pistol powder meant for BP cases like .44 WCF and .45 Colt.
Adaptation to rifles is just a bonus, but adaptation to Strength 1 rifles like Trapdoor is pushing it. As I recall, it might be passable with 300 gr .45-70 but comes up way short on 400 or more.

 

[crest117]

In the 45-70, Trail Boss gives less velocity and higher pressures than several powders. I shoot a couple trap door Springfields and have found the best load for me to be a 405 gn coated bullet over 28 gns of H4198. Much lower pressure than Trail Boss and comes very close to the same velocity of the original black powder load.

 

[Walkalong]

imr4198 and 5744.

I am a fan of 5744 for .45-70 style loads in .458 Win Mag brass, and it should download well for light .45-70. It's very bulky for its weight like SR-4759, which was designed to download rifle calibers, and has a similar burn rate as well.

4198 is also well liked in .45-70, but I have not used it in that application so I cannot speak to that.

 

[troy fairweather]

I am a fan of 5744 for .45-70 style loads in .458 Win Mag brass, and it should download well for light .45-70. It's very bulky for its weight like SR-4759, which was designed to download rifle calibers, and has a similar burn rate as well.

4198 is also well liked in .45-70, but I have not used it in that application so I cannot speak to that.

i remember my dad using 5744 a lot when i was a kid, worked great in the 43 mauser and 45/70, really any thing that was BP with that cases size.

 

[Walkalong]

Depending on how long ago that is, it might have been SR-4759 he was using.

 

[troy fairweather]

Depending on how long ago that is, it might have been SR-4759 he was using.

15 or 20 years. i believe it was 5744 for the los in his data written down. don't use it to much now hard to find round here, and don't have the guns no more to use it any way.

 

[fpgt72]

So why do so many people love TB.....is it just a cost thing? I can see the attraction of 12grains over 40, but really....if you are that big of a tight a$$ I think you should be looking at other hobbies.....why not just use some other pistol powder?

 

[Walkalong]

15 or 20 years.

Yea, it was around then, SR-4759 pre-dates it by many years.

 

[Walkalong]

So why do so many people love TB.....

My guess is the superb case fill (Super bulky) and it is hard to hurt yourself with Trailboss.

In your case though, we believe it is a bit fast for the application. Could likely be used at less than the listed max loads I suppose.

 

[Jim Watson]

There have been a lot of .45-70s loaded with Unique and 2400, going back before the profusion of powders on the market now. You can do better now.
I don't know how the Trail Boss mystique spread so far beyond its intended market of CAS.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I am a fan of 5744 for .45-70 style loads in .458 Win Mag brass, and it should download well for light .45-70. It's very bulky for its weight like SR-4759, which was designed to download rifle calibers, and has a similar burn rate as well.

4198 is also well liked in .45-70, but I have not used it in that application so I cannot speak to that.

Very close to my 45-70 loading preferences.

I really liked SR-4759 until they discontinued it, that was a shame.

I used a lot of 4198 until I tried AA5744 and now it's almost nothing but AA5744, like AC I'm a big fan. If you give AA5744 a try I feel you will not be disappointed.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

So why do so many people love TB.....is it just a cost thing? I can see the attraction of 12grains over 40, but really....if you are that big of a tight a$$ I think you should be looking at other hobbies.....why not just use some other pistol powder?

I'm not sure why so many like it. Probably good marketing by Hodgdon/IMR is a good part of it. Like akread y said by the OP, the pressures are higher than many of the alternates. You could use Unique or 2400 just as easily like already said too. I have seen loads for the 45-70 with at least 20 different powders ranging from Black Powder, Red Dot to Varget and LVR. It has been around for over 150 years after all.

 

[fpgt72]

Being the first go at this I loaded up 10 rounds in different recipes...varget, 4895.....as well as a few other "standard" rifle powders...my normal deal in finding food a given gun will like best

 

[reddog81]

So why do so many people love TB.....is it just a cost thing? I can see the attraction of 12grains over 40, but really....if you are that big of a tight a$$ I think you should be looking at other hobbies.....why not just use some other pistol powder?

There are more calibers out there than 45-70. For light handgun loads in revolvers it works great in many applications.

 

[fpgt72]

There are more calibers out there than 45-70. For light handgun loads in revolvers it works great in many applications.

I get that...and by doing a little reading on it sounds like a pistol powder....and that is cool....no issue.

Where I get to the huh...what....is when people talk about using it in something like 45-70.....they also talk of Unique...I think that was brought up here.

What I am trying to understand is the why......and the only reason I can come up with is cost.

3031 is one of the ingredients in the recipes I have worked up....I want to say 40-45 grains (off the top of my head, don't quote me on that) vs 12 for a "trapdoor safe" TB load. The pressure is higher....the FPS is pretty close to the same so why would you want to stress a 130 year old gun.....and the only as in ONLY reason I can see for this is cost.

What I started this thread for is to see if I am missing out on something here. If it is to just save a few pennies I will let that bus drive on by.....if there is something else....well that is why I started the thread.

I freely admit I have never used TB so I don't have much of a basis on that....this again the question....but I don't think I would want to hit that old steel with that kind of pressure if all I get is a small cost savings....and it is really very small.

I have been known to squeeze the very life blood out of a dime before....then again I can spend money like water if I think (not feel) a need to and the end result is worth it.

I am pounding on a dead horse here I know a bit....but right now I am walking away thinking that TB does nothing that others will not do better.....and this from a guy that has 20 different powders in his drawer.

 

[Walkalong]

There are some things Trailboss does very well, and sales back it up, but yea, it's not magic, and if you have 20 different powders you likely have something that will suffice.

Yes, it's a pistol powder, and so it is fast compared to rifle powder, but it is extremely bulky and they discovered that 75% to 100% fill (No compresses loads) is very good for very light rifle shooting. Light as far as velocity and recoil, and safe pressures in modern rifles.

What does the pressure look like in the minimum load for it in .45-70? Just curious.

Red Dot and Unique, as pointed out earlier, have both been used for what you suggest, but again, pistol powders so watch pressure. H-4895 is good for downloading rifle.

What powder do you have that you intended to use before you thought to research Traillboss?

 

[reddog81]

What I am trying to understand is the why......and the only reason I can come up with is cost.

I've never loaded 45-70 nor have I used TB in any rifle cartridges, but I can tell you at a cost pushing $30 per pound it is certainly not the price that attracts people to use it in pistols. I think the attraction is the fact that it's impossible to double charge, good accuracy, if load data's not available you can determine it yourself, and the loads are easy to shoot. If someone is looking for a light shooting load than TB is possibly the best powder out there a number of cartridges. Just this last weekend I was shooting TB in 45 ACP and compared to light target loads of Bullseye the TB loads were noticeably less recoil. I'd say 25% less recoil, but I'm just making that number up to demonstrate that it was significant.

I'm guessing that TB is much better suited for smaller cases and when you get to something as large as 45-70 you're using so much powder the pressures start to ramp up beyond what 130 year guns can take.

 

[troy fairweather]

I've never loaded 45-70 nor have I used TB in any rifle cartridges, but I can tell you at a cost pushing $30 per pound it is certainly not the price that attracts people to use it in pistols. I think the attraction is the fact that it's impossible to double charge, good accuracy, if load data's not available you can determine it yourself, and the loads are easy to shoot. If someone is looking for a light shooting load than TB is possibly the best powder out there a number of cartridges. Just this last weekend I was shooting TB in 45 ACP and compared to light target loads of Bullseye the TB loads were noticeably less recoil. I'd say 25% less recoil, but I'm just making that number up to demonstrate that it was significant.

I'm guessing that TB is much better suited for smaller cases and when you get to something as large as 45-70 you're using so much powder the pressures start to ramp up beyond what 130 year guns can take.

TB was cheap it only went up the last few years.