Training and home defense?

[TallPine]

It seems like every time some home defense situation is discussed here, all the resident sages come out and just say: "well, you just need to go get some training."

My question is how valuable "training" really is in a home defense situation unless it is tailored specifically to your home and property circumstances?

For example, almost everyone says to lock yourself in your bedroom if a break-in occurs at night. That's the last place that I want to be holding out because IMO our second floor master bedroom is poorly defensible. If it comes to that, then everything else has failed.

My intent is to take a stand at the top of the stairs, and do my utmost to prevent any uninvited strangers from reaching the top, while my wife is hunkered down in the bedroom calling 911. (even though there is a window in the wall opposite the bottom of the stairs, and I would surely hate to break it )

To add to the mix, we have two dogs inside at night and they most certainly will already be involved in the commotion - either biting or licking the intruder to death. And in my neighborhood, sheriff response is anywhere from 30 minutes to a lifetime away.

The other thing is, how do you "train" to come full awake from a peaceful sleep and deal with a violent attack? Seems to me like that first 10 seconds or so after you are disturbed is going to make all the difference in the outcome.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You are kidding about questioning the value of training in a home defense situation, right?

 

[TallPine]

No, I'm not

thanks for nothing

 

[Jeff White]

My question is how valuable "training" really is in a home defense situation unless it is tailored specifically to your home and property circumstances?

When you learn the concepts, you can apply the training to any conditions you are forced to fight in. You can't train for every possible circumstance. But you can learn enough about how things work to adapt your training to the circumstance you find yourself in.

For example, almost everyone says to lock yourself in your bedroom if a break-in occurs at night. That's the last place that I want to be holding out because IMO our second floor master bedroom is poorly defensible. If it comes to that, then everything else has failed.

Then adapt your plan to defend from a better position.

My intent is to take a stand at the top of the stairs, and do my utmost to prevent any uninvited strangers from reaching the top, while my wife is hunkered down in the bedroom calling 911. (even though there is a window in the wall opposite the bottom of the stairs, and I would surely hate to break it

If this fits your house and your capabilities, there is nothing wrong with it. You have a plan, which in and of itself puts you light years ahead of most people. Most people haven't thought about these things, and they have no training and no plan to fall back on.

The other thing is, how do you "train" to come full awake from a peaceful sleep and deal with a violent attack? Seems to me like that first 10 seconds or so after you are disturbed is going to make all the difference in the outcome.

You need to get an alarm system that will shock you awake. You'd be surprised at how a good surge of adrenalin will make you wide awake. Some people wake up slow, things like alarm clocks and phones barely penetrate their dreams. Experiment a bit and find out what instantly wakes you.

Jeff

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

You are kidding about questioning the value of training in a home defense situation, right?

I will, and in many cases.

Seen too many home defense scenario training classes where the instructor tries to teach the students to be commandos, has them buy black BDU pajamas, purchases special pillow cases that have a sewn-in holster, replace their nightstand lamp bulbs with red low-light bulbs, etc etc.

Original poster is right--too many situations and scenarios and home layouts to have an effective catch-all situational training class. Even worse, damn near every instructor we ever ran into had never even fired a shot in anger or at anything other than a piece of cardboard or paper. But boy did they do the badass talk about "how to do it and what you'll need to do" and it was "tactical this" and "tactical that."

One of my old partners in the agency does the best home-defense training I've ever seen. For a fee, he takes the home owner to a shooting range and makes sure the guy/girl can shoot, knows how to handle their weapon, is safe, etc. Then they go to the home and he looks everything over and then gives them a plan and a contigency plan in the event of a break-in.

In other words, instead of taking the homeowner (a square peg) and trying to pound him into a classroom situation course (round hole), he takes the square peg and makes a square hole.

Anything less, for home invasion, in my experience and opinion, is not all that valuable.

Jeff

 

[Jeff White]

TexasSkyhawk said;

Seen too many home defense scenario training classes where the instructor tries to teach the students to be commandos, has them buy black BDU pajamas, purchases special pillow cases that have a sewn-in holster, replace their nightstand lamp bulbs with red low-light bulbs, etc etc.

Someone really did this? Who? PM me if you don't want to post it on an open forum.

Jeff

 

[308win]

It seems to me that the most important component that training is missing is the stress of a 'for keeps' situation. Until one has been in that type of situation you don't know how you are going to handle the stress - you may be the best shot, the best planner, the best whatever but - until you or a loved one is a bad decision or action away from dead you don't know how you are going to do. I am fortunate to have access to a family member who is LEO, has instructed for years, and provides expert testimony and I know, understand, and have applied what he has told me - but not when it was for keeps. Am I better prepared than the next guy? Yes if he hasn't had access to the same quality and amount of training. Will someone with no formal training but good instincts do as well? He may and may do better - or he may be luckier.

 

[sacp81170a]

My question is how valuable "training" really is in a home defense situation unless it is tailored specifically to your home and property circumstances?

My response to this question in a class is that there is no way to train you how to handle all circumstances, but the class is the place to learn what and how to practice so you can adapt it to your situation. There are all sorts of home layouts, family situations(kids, no kids, different ages of kids, etc.) that it's impossible to tailor a class for everyone who might come to it. What you can teach is sound, basic technique and concepts geared toward the level of the student. We're not all "operators".

The elderly couple who lives in the rural farmhouse is going to have a completely different strategy for home defense from the suburban couple with three kids and a dog. There's no cookie cutter approach you can take, but you can give each the basic skills along with some suggestions on how to apply them. If the instructor isn't focussing on sklls that you can take home and practice along with some tips on how to practice them safely, you probably aren't getting your money's worth. Note that the firearm portion of a home defense solution may very well be the least important part. Builidng good relationships with your neighbors and local law enforcement, investing in simple security measures and having a plan put you way ahead of not doing anything. The firearm is for those instances when all the rest of your passive measures have failed. Just my two cents' worth...

 

[TallPine]

You'd be surprised at how a good surge of adrenalin will make you wide awake.

Well, actually - I wouldn't. I know what it's like to have my VFD pager go off in the middle of the night - or any time for that matter. I usually keep it on "monitor" even at night, so I can hear anything that happens on our local repeater (like LE chasing some bad guy through our neighborhood). Even the hum that precedes some chatter can jolt me awake pretty good.

You need to get an alarm system that will shock you awake.

We have two of them - the furry kind But that brings up a good point, rather than choosing to spend thousands on travel, hotel, and training, would one not be better to spend the money on alarm systems, better doors/locks/windows, fences, gates, etc...?

One of my old partners in the agency does the best home-defense training I've ever seen. For a fee, he takes the home owner to a shooting range and makes sure the guy/girl can shoot, knows how to handle their weapon, is safe, etc. Then they go to the home and he looks everything over and then gives them a plan and a contigency plan in the event of a break-in.

Now that sounds worthwhile.

 

[mercop]

One the things that we do is do a physical security evaluation of the residence and decide how defensible it is. Houses are built to be attractive not defensible. There are easy things to add like lights and mirrors. I am also a fan of sirens, horns and loud speakers. From that point with the use of airsoft we can teach people how to clear their own house if they have to (not advisable). Hard to do with 3 or more people yet alone by yourself.

The idea of a group of gang bangers charging up the steps of your house and you fending them off makes for a pretty good movie premise but is very unlikly. Dogs along with a verbal challenge from behind cover stating that you are armed and the police are on the way will send most BGs running. After all the reason they do these things at night is to avoid people.

On the other hand the chances of the average person fending off a group of organized individuals in the middle of the night is slim. If they have intelligence on what time you normaly go to bed, people and animals in the house etc you are screwed. Many residences are accessed because of people leaving the attached garage door open. Since the door into the house is usually considered an interior door it is not alarmed.

A layered defense of location, landscaping, physical layout, doors, windows, alarms, lights, sirens, and a safe room will give you the time needed to wake out of a sound sleep and make common sense decisions.

 

[TallPine]

Thanks, mercop (your weblink doesn't seem to be working right now)

The sirens, etc aren't going to do too much good as we have no close neighbors right now. Some high powered motion lights are on the immediate agenda, however.

The whole possibility of home invasion is pretty remote for us - it's really just one of those "what if?" things because the consequences are so great. So one throws a reasonable minimum of time, energy, and money at the risk and then moves on. If I had an extra million or so lying around, I would just build some sort of fortified castle and be done with it.

Of course there are other issues - we still get an occasional no-good-nik (looking for our infamous ex-neighbor) banging on our door. That's a whole 'nother section of Paranoia 101, and one reason why I'm always armed at home and treat visitors with extreme caution until they are identified. For some reason these kind of folks always show up in December. Do they let a lot of people out of jail right before xmas or what ...???

 

[mercop]

The sirens are to flush the bad guy out and alert you. Loud noises are the first thing that provoke a stress reaction in humans. Slam a door when a baby is sleeping and watch their arms and legs jump. It is the reptilian fight/flight response being formed. That is what you want, them out of your house.

I know my site it down, we are having some bad weather here which may be the cause.

 

[MostlyGenius]

It would be better to have a plan that gets modified to fit the situation than to be making up a plan on the spot.

While training might not cover your specific floor plan it should teach you to the principles and give you some tips to build a better plan.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Wow Tall Pine, I figured you had to be kidding because I would have thought the answer is fairly obvious as Jeff pointed out. Without having the instructor come to your own home and shoot up your home as part of training, the idea of training outside of the home is that you learn generalized skills that you apply to your particular situation.

This is much the same as learning any martial art. Nobody in Karate expects to be attacked by a barefooted person in a karate uniform in a room with a padded floor. By the logic above...

My question is how valuable "training" really is in a home defense situation unless it is tailored specifically to your home and property circumstances?

no training would be useful if not tailored to the very specific circumstances and karate folks would have an amazing skill set only applicable to the circumstances of their training. That just isn't the case.

 

[possum]

Without having the instructor come to your own home and shoot up your home as part of training, the idea of training outside of the home is that you learn generalized skills that you apply to your particular situation.

if you go to the right places you will learn the skill set, tactics, problem solving and mindset that you need to make it in a real world sittuation. maybe a force on force course would be best suited for your needs.

 

[TallPine]

While training might not cover your specific floor plan it should teach you to the principles and give you some tips to build a better plan.

Okay, so what is a better plan that "holding the fort" at the top of the stairs?

What principles (related to home defense) exist that cannot be discussed online?

the idea of training outside of the home is that you learn generalized skills that you apply to your particular situation

Such as ...?

 

[ShackleMeNot]

If you are in a fight for your life you will never wish you had less training.

 

[possum]

shay i was wondering when you were gonna come around!

 

[Geno]

There are instructors who do come to one's home for one-on-one training, and for the purposes of assessing the house layout. It cost less than most people would assume. There are other instructors who offer Advanced Tactical Training using furniture, etc for practicing firing from cover. However, my point is you are correct. All of the Tactical training in the world means nothing if it is not applied. I have posted this opinion many times.

Good thread! By the way, I used to discuss this with my one uncle. As it turns out, the best defensive position for my uncle's two story home is the top of the stairwell, firing downward into the entrance, while my aunt would be in the BR calling 911. Sounds like you too have done some assessing of your own home! Kudos!

 

[sacp81170a]

Okay, so what is a better plan that "holding the fort" at the top of the stairs?

Having worked as a member of an entry team, I know that stairs are some of the most tactically challenging obstacles you can face while clearing a structure. Knowing that, here's how I'd go about planning to "hold the fort" in my own house if I had stairs:

1. Place yourself in what you believe to be a position of advantage, a place where you can spot anyone coming up the stairs before they can spot you.

2. Have a family member or friend actually approach the stairs and walk up them.

3. Note your angles and lanes of fire. Would you be shooting toward a neighbor's house? Would you be shooting toward a room where loved ones might be sleeping?

4. Especially note that last place that you can effectively engage the BG with your firearm from a position of cover before he or she gains access to the floor you are on. You will engage him or her verbally before they reach this area.

5. Make sure you have the ability to illuminate the stairs and the area at the bottom controlled from your chosen vantage point and from inside your bedroom. A floodlight at the top of the stairs pointed down on a separate three way switch would do nicely, especially if it were rigged as an emergency exit light in the event of a power outage(i.e., battery backed up emergency light).

6. Unobtrusively fortify your position, but don't make it a place a BG can use for cover if you fail to reach it from your bedroom before they do. A strategically positioned bookcase would do nicely.

7. Install some kind of alarm system to alert you when an intruder enters the house.

As always, have a plan to alert law enforcement and gather your family in a safe area. If you or family members can't get to a safe area in time, have a plan to exit the dwelling and get to a neighbor's house. Your fire escape plan is a good place to start. If you have kids and they're old enough, make sure they keep their cell phones on their bedstand(s) at night so you can call them up and tell them to come to you or stay put.

As you can see, there are a ton of variables and situations. Know your basics and let common sense be your guide, but above all have a plan!

 

[MostlyGenius]

Some principles:

Identify areas of cover and/or concealment. Do they give any advantages to an intruder? Can we change the configuration of furniture to take those advantages away, or at least warn us of somebody tries to use them?

Alternate scenarios. Holding the fort at the top of the stairs is great if you get start upstairs with the bad guy downstairs. What about other scenarios, like you coming home and seeing the bad guy at the top of the stairs?

Means of access. If somebody is going to come in to your house what routes are they going to use? How can we make those routes more complicated for them?

Deliberate clearing. Everyone says that you shouldn't 'clear' your house, but there are cases when you might need to do so, and that is a non-trivial skill.

 

[1911 guy]

My plan

My plan is similar, alright, identical, to Tallpines'. My family sleeps upstairs. My place is at the top of the stairs. There's an AR, 12ga and 1911 readily available to me there. Good cover, a corner of heavy lathe and plaster walls. About eight inches apiece, double and diagonal thickness. Right hand shooting for me and left hand if the BG at the bottom chooses to use a spindled railing as cover.

Okay, so what is a better plan that "holding the fort" at the top of the stairs?

In my case and possibly yours, there isn't one. Training will teach you to use the available cover, shoot the extreme angles of a staircase (tried it yet? it's easy to flub under pressure.) and handle your chosen weapon(s) in close quarters. Mindset is something that's priceless. If you can't wake up at any time ready to do violence, advancing to an intercept position might not be the best for you. It's your family behind you, it's O.K. to be mean. Protect them.

 

[Zak Smith]

Some thoughts on training.. I've taken many fighting/tactical pistol and carbine courses from a variety of nationally-known instructors who you'd all recognize.

The bulk of what is taught in the first and second level classes comes down to weapons manipulation (running the gun) and marksmanship (making hits), with and emphasis on doing it right every time. Most people who have been "shooting" for years cannot operate their weapons correctly under stress (the exception is some "practical" competition shooters). These kinds of skills are key to employing a firearm as a tool for defense and are applicable to any such scenario including static safe-room defense, and need to be second-nature. The idea that because your plan is simple, you do not need this level of competency is flawed.

 

[TallPine]

Okays, thanks for some serious answers.

I may not be a champion shooter, but I have hunted and taken game, and have shot vermin, predators, and stray dogs around the property. Not exactly high danger, but you do have to act decisively. I really don't think shooting itself is as important as just not putting yourself in a bad or worse situation (tactics). Would be nice to take some classes but again the money might be better spent on lights and alarms, etc.

It's just the two of us here at home right now (plus the dogs & cats). The stairs come up roughly in the center of the house into a central upstairs room. There's iron railings along one side, and the other side is part railing / part bathroom wall. So there's a little "nook" on the left side at the top of the stairs (nice because I am right handed). We also have a chest of drawers there. It's not exactly "hard cover" but any fire up the stairs would be a flat angle through chipboard, studs, and maybe fixtures. (maybe I could talk my wife into swapping the chest with a bookcase?) I do need to dry run the act of firing around that corner and down the stairs.

The nearest house that is LOS is about 1/2 mile away on top of a ridge, and there are some others about a mile down the valley. All of the houses closer than that are behind large hills.

We used to have a low wattage flourescent downstairs on 24/7 but the lightning killed it last summer. We need to get an LED or something to replace it.

Through all of this discussion, I'm assuming a middle of the night type break in. Then there is the (more likely) someone approaches your house/knocks on your door scenario, which in my mind is a whole different ball game as the situation is much more fluid and unpredictable.

 

[MostlyGenius]

Everyone that thinks about self-defense at all comes up with some kind of plan, even the people who keep baseball bats next to their beds. They have *a* plan for *a* scenario. If their situation is not that scenario, then they have to make it up as they go along.

A good training class will help you cover some of the contingencies, and give you some other ideas improve your safety.