Training people?

[Jenrick]

Again, I'm not an attorney either, but there's a big difference when it comes to liability when your are paid to teach as opposed to what the OP is talking about, just helping a friend out at the range for free. Otherwise, none of us would ever help out someone new to firearms....or learning to drive....or hunting, etc, etc.

The liability is the same, it's not common for it to occur. If you took your nephew of 18 out to teach him to hunt, and you told him "It's perfectly fine to shoot at anything you see that moves in the woods, particularly near the roads and paths..." Well we can all foresee the potential tragic outcome of that. You COULD be civilly liable if someone was shot and killed by said nephew, and the plaintiff decided to file suite against you. However this is exceedingly rare, as you're average American doesn't have enough money to make it worth the lawyers timer to sue them. Now if you were wealthy, that changes things, you might well be in court for that one.

Again most folks don't stray to far out from what everyone would consider normal/reasonable/safe instruction, and aren't worth enough to be worth suing.

 

[hso]

it could fall back on me

Ask your buddy how that's supposed to happen? You try to show her how to be safe, not be Anne Oakley.

First off, whoever sold it to her is a typical jerk. "Here Little Lady, this is just what you need since you won't be able to use a semi."
Second, find where she can get some soft shooting .38 special like the S&B 148gr wadcutters.
Third, find out if her problem is the DA trigger pull or a horrible flinch (or both now). Find out what she's using for hearing protection and get her to double up with high NRR muffs over high NRR foam plugs. Watch her on dry firing the thing to see if she has an engrained flinch. If she does have her dry fire with snap caps or with a bore laser so she can concentrate on not moving the point of aim as she practices. Combine the wadcutters and plugs and muffs and see how she does.

 

[Axis II]

Ask your buddy how that's supposed to happen? You try to show her how to be safe, not be Anne Oakley.

First off, whoever sold it to her is a typical jerk. "Here Little Lady, this is just what you need since you won't be able to use a semi."
Second, find where she can get some soft shooting .38 special like the S&B 148gr wadcutters.
Third, find out if her problem is the DA trigger pull or a horrible flinch (or both now). Find out what she's using for hearing protection and get her to double up with high NRR muffs over high NRR foam plugs. Watch her on dry firing the thing to see if she has an engrained flinch. If she does have her dry fire with snap caps or with a bore laser so she can concentrate on not moving the point of aim as she practices. Combine the wadcutters and plugs and muffs and see how she does.

Thanks!

Dumb question-Is a heavier bullet a little lighter recoiling than a 125gr?

She uses plain muffs that are fairly cheap (Caldwell) but I will advise her to double up with plugs and muffs. She said something about buying 158gr Herters ammo from Cabelas. I load light 125gr RNFP with plated bullets I figured I would see how those go. I think her jumping into the 357 rounds may have turned her off. She did say she does the kind of lean back, right leg back stance we see a lot of new people do. I advised legs about shoulder width apart, slight bend in the waist and knees and lean forward with arms locked outwards. She does the elbows down, almost tucked in thing with her arms.

 

[1911 guy]

Recoil is a function of both weight and velocity. Both must be entered into the equation to give an accurate representation. 158gr might recoil more or less than 125gr, depending on what velocity each bullet is traveling.

Usually, manufacturers use 125gr bullets in +P loads, which tend to have more recoil because of higher pressure and velocity. Not 100% true, but mostly.

Your best bet is to find her a source for Blazer 158 grain LRN. It's a mild recoiling load at a modest 750 or so FPS. It won't set any records, but it's perfectly adequate for a defensive round. It's also relatively inexpensive.

 

[hso]

Is a heavier bullet a little lighter recoiling than a 125gr ... lean back ...

Not always. The heavier the bullet can be moving slower and provide less energy even if the same momentum. She needs to be practicing with the lowest recoil she can find so she doesn't create all the bad habits from too much recoil starting out. The 158 gr could be good too. Specifically look for low recoil.

Heavens, she's done everything wrong starting out.

 

[MedWheeler]

oilhunter2014 writes:

Dumb question-Is a heavier bullet a little lighter recoiling than a 125gr?

Not a dumb question at all.

I started in law enforcement back in wheelgun days. My agency issued the Winchester .38 Special 95-grain +P SilverTip HP load. Training ammo at the academy was a standard-velocity 158-grain LSWC. We fired thousands of rounds of it, and I got to where I was shooting at the "expert" level well before the time we shot our first "practice" qualification run. We were to shoot three of those, I think, before shooting "for the money", and those "for the money" runs were to be shot with agency-issued duty ammunition. I found I had enough duty ammo to shoot my final practice run with it, too, so I did.

That ended up being a good decision on my part, as my score was downright poor. Having gotten used to the 158-grain "chunkier" stuff, these zippy little flyweights were all hitting low, and my score was barely a passing one. I even remember noticing the reduction in perceived recoil and muzzle flip. Not having time to make sight adjustments, I compensated with my aim and quickly brought my "for real" scores back up.

 

[David4516]

"women have trouble with racking a slide"

Only if you teach them the wrong way (slingshot method). My wife has small girly hands and fibromyalgia but she can rack the slide on any of our semi-autos no problem. Even my Makarov, which has a heavy duty after market recoil spring. Watch this video, it works



As for recoil, yeah bullet weight as well as velocity can affect recoil. For lightest possible recoil you want a lighter weight bullet at a relatively low velocity (not too low, don't want that thing to get stuck in the barrel). For .38 that would be either a 110gr or 125gr. If you don't reload you can buy light recoil factory rounds like this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...special-90-grain-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-25

Hope this is helpful...

 

[Browning]

The overhand rack is what I've generally seen taught, especially for women. I've heard less complaints from that method, but I still hear complaints ("It hurts my fingers") and see them struggling when pushing/pulling their arms in opposing directions.

It often depends on what their age is and how accustomed they are to doing something slightly physical that demands their attention. A 20-something who does crossfit and has a can do it attitude is going to obviously do better than a 78 year old female with arthritis.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Just a few thoughts.

First off, whoever sold it to her is a typical jerk. "Here Little Lady, this is just what you need since you won't be able to use a semi."

Heavens, she's done everything wrong starting out.

Agreed. If you read the previous thread on this gal the salesperson at Cabelas talked her into this gun and her friend, the OP, wasn't there when she bought it. I don't think it's a terrible choice but her purchase definitely could have been thought out better. However, if she is short of cash as mentioned in the other thread, and actually afraid enough of her ex that she ran out and bought a gun, I'd say she's reacting out of fear and just wanted someone to tell her what to do. It's unfortunate she chose the gun counter guy to do that.

Getting into SD 357s this quickly is definitely a bad idea. She needs light loads as has been discussed.

She did say she does the kind of lean back, right leg back stance we see a lot of new people do. I advised legs about shoulder width apart, slight bend in the waist and knees and lean forward with arms locked outwards. She does the elbows down, almost tucked in thing with her arms.

It sounds like she is using a modified/mangled Weaver stance rather than the isosceles stance you want her to learn. Nothing wrong with that at this point. I would suggest you let her shoot as she naturally does for now. Stance is important and can really speed up shots and control, but flooding her with too much info to start will only compound issues.

I taught my ex girlfriend to shoot and I suggest the first two things you begin with are sight picture and trigger control. If she can't pull the trigger without moving the gun all over, the rest is irrelevant.

It often depends on what their age is and how accustomed they are to doing something slightly physical that demands their attention. A 20-something who does crossfit and has a can do it attitude is going to obviously do better than a 78 year old female with arthritis.

That's true in some regards. All women are a little different. My ex was nothing but peaceful and used her hands in the medical industry. However, she wanted to learn to shoot, she wanted a semiauto, and working with her hands meant cycling a slide was no problem. The biggest issue she had was just letting go of the slide and letting it ride home. She tended to ride the slide when chambering a round.

 

[milemaker13]

Ladies only class taught by a lady. My wife loved it. Not feeling intimidated by a guy.

I would be ok going to the range together and offering some advice. Not "taking her" but "going together... big difference in my mind. I "take" younger kids shooting...my responsibility. I will "go shooting together" with others... all their own responsibility.

 

[Browning]

460Shooter said : That's true in some regards. All women are a little different. My ex was nothing but peaceful and used her hands in the medical industry. However, she wanted to learn to shoot, she wanted a semiauto, and working with her hands meant cycling a slide was no problem. The biggest issue she had was just letting go of the slide and letting it ride home. She tended to ride the slide when chambering a round.

Yeah, that's true of my wife ... right down to the medical profession and riding the slide instead of letting it go.

My point wasn't that women are untrainable (they are and with most women it seems like they actually listen).

It's just on the physical part of it they generally aren't as strong and they don't learn the same way as men and some men get frustrated at this and give up and try to slap them with the simplest handgun they know of instead of being patient and actually trying instruct them. That was pretty much my only point.

My wife got it eventually, the same way that most women do if you stick with it.

 

[patmccoy]

She did say she does the kind of lean back, right leg back stance we see a lot of new people do. I advised legs about shoulder width apart, slight bend in the waist and knees and lean forward with arms locked outwards. She does the elbows down, almost tucked in thing with her arms.

Don't worry too much about the position of the feet, as long as she is comfortable and repeats the position.

With her in her usual position, with an unloaded gun, you can grasp the barrel and push back (imitate recoil). Then have her extend her arms, and you do the same thing. She should be able to feel the difference in control. Finally, have her bend slightly forward (instead of back), and you do the same thing with recoil imitation. Usually you will see "the light come on" and she will understand the basics of a good position.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

The basics of hand gun operation and safety can be started with a Air gun. Then later moved up to the 22.cal. I am a Air gun enthusiast. I started my son off with a air Pistol and then revolver. Many different targets set up in the back yard and a small range in the garage. I am a believer in fast point and shoot skills and believe these skills should be started early. Repetition. Over and over pointing the gun and watch a kid develop. You also do not have to go to a range, and can get much more frequent practice. Ammo is crazy cheap, there is little recoil etc. Makes for a very comfortable setting. Not a lot of noise going around. etc.
And Not just for someone learning. I shoot and train with Air guns all the time. Have been for decades. When the ammo shortage hit, I was shooting Airguns 3 or 4 times a week and actually came back from the shortage, a much better shooter. Keeps the fundamental skills, eye muscle/memory honed.
I have a good collection of Air Pistols, my favorite is the Walther CP88 which is used for Iron Plate competition in Europe.
And since there are so many replica air guns, you can start someone on a Air Pistol and move up to the same pistol in 22.cal.

 

[paulsj]

Model 60 pro series.

I have stainless J frame with internal hammer (worse choice yet but not as bad as one with light frame) and can barely hit "barn door" with it. I would replace what she has with something like a G26 and part of the problem will go away.

 

[Axis II]

Well going to meet up this weekend and give this a shot! I plan on going over the stances as well as make sure she's not loosely holding it. She now has 3 boxes of 38spl RN. She says she's not flinching and goes from SA to DA i said well that maybe the issue just shoot it DA because when SHTF you want to shoot it in DA. Another reason I don't like SA-DA revolvers. I bet when it goes into DA she is jerking the trigger very badly. I wish i still had the picture but its a paper man target and out of 25 rounds a target i think 3-5 were scorable. I have about 500rds of 9mm and some light loads for my J frame ill let her have some fun so she's not discouraged.

 

[jmorris]

For a good DA trigger pull it’s important to dry fire, dry fire, dry fire and then dry fire some more.

At the range, mix in a snap cap with live rounds and it’s easy to see the shooter input without the recoil.

 

[huntsman]

While I agree about DA firing being the focus you could start her with SA to build her confidence.

 

[buck460XVR]

Well going to meet up this weekend and give this a shot! I plan on going over the stances as well as make sure she's not loosely holding it. She now has 3 boxes of 38spl RN. She says she's not flinching and goes from SA to DA i said well that maybe the issue just shoot it DA because when SHTF you want to shoot it in DA. Another reason I don't like SA-DA revolvers. I bet when it goes into DA she is jerking the trigger very badly. I wish i still had the picture but its a paper man target and out of 25 rounds a target i think 3-5 were scorable. I have about 500rds of 9mm and some light loads for my J frame ill let her have some fun so she's not discouraged.

Her steel model 60 with .38s will probably be more pleasant to shoot than a alloy frame J-Frame or many 9mms. As for worrying about women shooters. Most women I know, even those with little or no experience tend to shoot better than many men who consider themselves "macho" gun men. Many men, especially those with no formal training of their own, will promote more bad habits in new shooters than eliminate. Use the KISS system and don't overwhelm her by trying to instill everything she needs to know in one range session.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

For a good DA trigger pull it’s important to dry fire, dry fire, dry fire and then dry fire some more.

At the range, mix in a snap cap with live rounds and it’s easy to see the shooter input without the recoil.

This is very good advice. ^^^^^

When I was teaching my ex girlfriend, starting out I'd walk her through loading a magazine, loading the weapon, chambering a round, putting the safety on. I backed off after the first range session so making the gun ready became something she knew how to do on her own. I would then stand behind her and watch her shoot and try to spot for her. Several times she would go to shoot, and forget to chamber a round, or she would leave the safety on. I never corrected her. I let her try to shoot knowing the gun would not fire.

Those particular instances really illustrated how much she was jerking the trigger. She would look sheepish and puzzled at first, but then I would shift it to "I saw this coming and said nothing on purpose so we could see how your trigger squeeze was, and because it'll help you develop automatic gun handling techniques. So it's a good thing because you can check yourself." Like I said, if you can't pull/squeeze a trigger without moving the gun all over the place, all the other stuff about technique means nothing. You'll miss every time. So in my eyes, it's the first lesson that needs to be learned, followed immediately with sight picture.

Throwing a snap cap in when she isn't looking is a good idea because it will serve the same purpose.

I have an extremely young and new workforce, and when I took over managing all 11 of them, I learned something really important as I trained them. It's vital that you as a teacher turn failures into a positive thing for them so they understand that a failure is just another learning experience. That way they relax, and they aren't afraid to make a mistake. They understand it's just part of the process and they are positively reinforced and encouraged. The natural instinct of anyone is to observe a failure or shortcoming in their own performance, and see it as a bad thing. The teacher needs to shift it away from negativity, with any skill you are teaching.

One more thought.

She says she's not flinching and goes from SA to DA i said well that maybe the issue just shoot it DA because when SHTF you want to shoot it in DA.

This really concerns me. Cocking a hammer in a SD situation could possibly be misconstrued in court. As we all know, shooting needs to be the last option. If you have time to cock the hammer, a lawyer could make the argument you had time to run away, or that you intended to kill someone. Now, trying to prove that would be hard, and who would know you cocked the hammer if you killed your attacker. And what if you use a SA revolver as your SD weapon, as a few folks on THR do?............ but none the less, it's a bad idea I think.

My bigger concern is that she develops a habit of cocking the hammer on the first shot. If she is actually in a defense situation, and draws her gun as a deterrent, having the hammer cocked in a high stress situation could lead to a accidental discharge. Not a good scenario. If it were me, I'd emphasize SA shooting is for hunting and range time, never ever SD. If she is practicing for SD, SA shooting shouldn't even be happening.

Good luck.

 

[straightshooterjake]

The discussion in this thread about double action shooting vs single action really emphasizes why I consider J-frame revolvers to be guns for experienced shooters. Running a J-frame well is really quite an advanced skill. I really like these revolvers, and I favor the double action only models, but they are not for beginners.

When I work with inexperienced shooters, I focus on shooting fundamentals. In this context, I do not have people shoot a revolver double action until they can consistently hit a paper plate at seven to ten yards in single action. If they do not have that level of control, then they are making errors in the fundamentals, and shooting double action makes it much harder to find and fix those errors. During these lessons, I explain that single action shooting is a recreational skill, but it needs to come before other harder skills.

When we begin to transition from single action to double action, many people decide that what they really want is to transition to a semi-auto. I discuss the pros and cons, but let them decide what is best for their situation. Since I have a J-frame, they know I am serious when I say that revolvers are a good choice, but not easy.

Of course, if a new shooter has a J-frame, and needs to get to a reasonable defensive level quickly, then working on fundamentals in single action is not really the right choice. Unfortunately, I am not sure that any other training plan will work better.

I am wishing you the best luck in finding a safe and successful plan.

 

[Axis II]

Her steel model 60 with .38s will probably be more pleasant to shoot than a alloy frame J-Frame or many 9mms. As for worrying about women shooters. Most women I know, even those with little or no experience tend to shoot better than many men who consider themselves "macho" gun men. Many men, especially those with no formal training of their own, will promote more bad habits in new shooters than eliminate. Use the KISS system and don't overwhelm her by trying to instill everything she needs to know in one range session.

I have a ton of 9mm ammo and she said she wants to shoot that so i figured give her an ammo can and say have at it. I have a fullsize M&P i was going to change the grips to fit her and just let her bang away so she gets more cheaper trigger time and some fun.

I do agree the 38 would be much more enjoyable but the 9mm wont come out until a box or two of her 38spl is gone and she feels comfortable.

 

[Axis II]

This is very good advice. ^^^^^

When I was teaching my ex girlfriend, starting out I'd walk her through loading a magazine, loading the weapon, chambering a round, putting the safety on. I backed off after the first range session so making the gun ready became something she knew how to do on her own. I would then stand behind her and watch her shoot and try to spot for her. Several times she would go to shoot, and forget to chamber a round, or she would leave the safety on. I never corrected her. I let her try to shoot knowing the gun would not fire.

Those particular instances really illustrated how much she was jerking the trigger. She would look sheepish and puzzled at first, but then I would shift it to "I saw this coming and said nothing on purpose so we could see how your trigger squeeze was, and because it'll help you develop automatic gun handling techniques. So it's a good thing because you can check yourself." Like I said, if you can't pull/squeeze a trigger without moving the gun all over the place, all the other stuff about technique means nothing. You'll miss every time. So in my eyes, it's the first lesson that needs to be learned, followed immediately with sight picture.

Throwing a snap cap in when she isn't looking is a good idea because it will serve the same purpose.

I have an extremely young and new workforce, and when I took over managing all 11 of them, I learned something really important as I trained them. It's vital that you as a teacher turn failures into a positive thing for them so they understand that a failure is just another learning experience. That way they relax, and they aren't afraid to make a mistake. They understand it's just part of the process and they are positively reinforced and encouraged. The natural instinct of anyone is to observe a failure or shortcoming in their own performance, and see it as a bad thing. The teacher needs to shift it away from negativity, with any skill you are teaching.

One more thought.

This really concerns me. Cocking a hammer in a SD situation could possibly be misconstrued in court. As we all know, shooting needs to be the last option. If you have time to cock the hammer, a lawyer could make the argument you had time to run away, or that you intended to kill someone. Now, trying to prove that would be hard, and who would know you cocked the hammer if you killed your attacker. And what if you use a SA revolver as your SD weapon, as a few folks on THR do?............ but none the less, it's a bad idea I think.

My bigger concern is that she develops a habit of cocking the hammer on the first shot. If she is actually in a defense situation, and draws her gun as a deterrent, having the hammer cocked in a high stress situation could lead to a accidental discharge. Not a good scenario. If it were me, I'd emphasize SA shooting is for hunting and range time, never ever SD. If she is practicing for SD, SA shooting shouldn't even be happening.

Good luck.

I have several empty 38spl in my ammo box i was going to throw 1-2 in there and see what happens with the flinch. I figured this is how you load, hold, sights, stance and then pull trigger until it breaks instead of jerking/slapping it and see how bad she jerks. I purchased some shoot n c man targets so it will build her confidence and allow me to see hits while behind her. I'm not one to freak out on anyone even during a safety issue because that just isn't right. I figured the first round would be a dummy and then live round to see what happens.

As far as the DA/SA scenario I agree with the statement that they will pick that apart. If you have the second to cock the hammer it wasn't really a threat. I also don't want her to get in the habit of leaving it cocked and carrying it or ccw if she gets the license. I want it DA at all times. Fight like you train and train like you fight IMO. If she leaves the hammer alone she will develop the muscle memory and strength to pull the DA trigger, not have to think to cock the hammer or walk around with it cocked. That SA trigger on those is quite light IMO. I handled one at a local store about a month ago and said yeah that's damn near a target trigger.

I want this trip to be fun for her so she's not discouraged. She asked to shoot a rifle also so ill be bringing the savage 223rem and teach her how to shoot clover leafs and i think she will be hooked.

 

[Axis II]

This is sort of my plan.
1) Go over muzzle, cylinder, backstop and beyond, finger off trigger until ready to fire, primer, bullet, case, sights, grip, etc.
2)Stand facing down range, weaver stance, arms locked out and naturally point the gun (her model 60) at the red dot on the shoot n c man target. I will ask her if the front red sight is aligned between the two rear white dots and when she says yes then say pull the trigger (dummy round)! I am anticipating a severe jerk and with that I will advise her to place her finger in the trigger guard and finger tip on the trigger and squeeze until it breaks. It will also have a dummy round because I want to see if she pulls to one side of the other. The 3rd time we do this the gun will go off. I'm still playing with the idea of not telling her its a live round because i don't want her to anticipate the gun going off and jerk.
3) Align the sights and fire again which will be a dummy round to check for jerking. This will tell me she is anticipating it going off.
4) next trigger pulls will be live rounds.
5) Do steps 2-4 again and if the jerking subsides then give her full cylinders and let her have some fun.
6) If she is having jerking issues ill have her put it in SA and see if that fixes the issue and shows me the DA is too heavy. If this is the case then snap caps and sitting at home dry firing will be the remedy to get the finger acclimated.
7) Once she is comfortable with it and fires a few cylinders with a dummy or two thrown in there I will have her stand and point and shoot without taking time to aim.

 

[.308 Norma]

As far as the DA/SA scenario I agree with the statement that they will pick that apart. If you have the second to cock the hammer it wasn't really a threat.

I suspect that's right, but it isn't right if you know what I mean.
What I mean is this: My wife learned to shoot with a single-action, 22 rimfire revolver. And as far as handguns go, that's all she had for many years. So pulling the hammer back as the gun comes up is as natural to her as flicking the safety off on my 1911 is to me.
Nevertheless, my wife's primary CCW handgun is a Glock 42. She has an old DA/SA j-frame though, and I guarantee that when she practices with it (or any DA/SA revolver for that matter) 9 times out of 10 she automatically pulls the hammer back as the gun comes up. She has to really think about it in order to practice firing a revolver double action. It just wouldn't be right for a lawyer to pick her apart for thumbing the hammer back on a double action revolver before putting a bullet in someone intending to do her harm.
I'm not arguing though ohihunter. Like I said: "I suspect that's right, but it isn't right if you know what I mean."

 

[patmccoy]

2)Stand facing down range, weaver stance, arms locked out and naturally point the gun (her model 60) at the red dot on the shoot n c man target. I will ask her if the front red sight is aligned between the two rear white dots and when she says yes then say pull the trigger (dummy round)! I am anticipating a severe jerk and with that I will advise her to place her finger in the trigger guard and finger tip on the trigger and squeeze until it breaks. It will also have a dummy round because I want to see if she pulls to one side of the other

Question and suggestion.
How do you lock out both arms in a Weaver stance? I believe the Weaver requires the operating arm to be locked while the support arm is partially flexed. Perhaps you mean the modified Weaver? If so, fine.

Suggestion, whatever stance is used, watch for proper forward balance at the knees/waist (no backward lean).

Good luck to both of you.